Undertired or overtired? Help!!!

[Papaya]

Tbh, if you think he's getting a bit sick it's going to be hard to say what's routine related and what is him not feeling so well! But morning nap looks like UT, and pm nap perhaps UT turned OT from the playing

If you think he's fine tomorrow, I would stick with your A times for at least 3-4 days -  if reducing for short nap, bad night etc, reduce by no more than 10/15 mins. BUT, if he does seem unwell over the next few days, I'd not worry about routine too much, just follow cues, and start stretching the A times again when he's well.

Fingers crossed for a better night tonight!

[Loafie]

Hi papaya:)
I have a question regarding today

So last night, LO in bed by 6pm , asleep by 6.30 pm.
Wake 5.50 am this morning.  No NW
Today went like this
W: 5.50 am, left in cot till 6.45 am was happy and chatting to himself
S: 9.30 am ( I had an appointment and had no choice)
W: 10.30 am ( this is really strange? I was expecting an OT naps since big A time here??) is this OT maybe???
S: 1.30 pm ( cut this A back by 10 mins to compensate for short nap)
W: 2.10 pm chatting at first then crying very quickly after wards...
CN : 20 mins  at 4.30 pm
Bed: 6pm but playing and crawling etc in cot till 7pm then sleep

I then tried to resettle APOP PM nap for over an hour with no success. He clearly was very tired though since he would sometimes close his eyes then cry and wake up again...
 Anyhow I thought that I absolutely had to get some kind of sleep in again before bed. I know we said no CN but really this is such little sleep and too long even with a SSEBT !!
My question is is this CN making it worse since he clearly is reenerginsed enough to play for an hour in his cot before sleep.
Should I have just kept him up and bed at say 5.15 pm ?
I just thought he would be so so tired with not even an hour of naps today.
Your thoughts?
Thanks!!

[Papaya]

W: 5.50 am, left in cot till 6.45 am was happy and chatting to himself
S: 9.30 am ( I had an appointment and had no choice)
W: 10.30 am ( this is really strange? I was expecting an OT naps since big A time here??) is this OT maybe???

I wouldn't count A time here from 5.50. If he was quiet in his cot until 6.45, that's still resting time - so some people just count from when LO actually gets up, or you can count the time in the cot as half time. So yesterday morning, I would count your WU as 6.15am, earliest. So A was only 3hr15 - still quite a short A time for his age   And with any nap over an hour, I don't think you need to reduce the next A. If it's 45 mins or less, then yes, but after an hour I think he can probably do a full A time.

And yup, I really do think no catnap   It is hard though, when your first two naps are short. How did today go?

[Loafie]

Great advice papaya:)
I hadn't thought of the A time has when he actually gets up....
Must explain today's catastrophic naps!
Today went:
W: 6.15 am( no NW
Kept in cot till 6.45 am , happy and chatting.
S: 9.30 am
W: 10.25 am crying
So in actual fact A time is really only 2h 45 or abit more here? Must explain short UT nap?
S: 1.25pm resisted nap and hard to settle
W: 1.55 pm crying and very tired.
Could not resettle
Didn't do catnap and had him in bed at 5.30 pm:)
He is still in there crawling and playing now and it's 6 pm !
New found skills are being out into practice!
I'm just surprised he's not so exhausted that he just doesn't crash!

Ill definitely continue with no CN.  Just really worried about EW because of SSEBT but I guess we'll get that with late afternoon CN at his age too no?
In terms of tired signs , I'm abit confused since the last few days , I've been careful to hold out abit and not pop him in bed at first signs ( ie eye rubs, ear pulling etc) have been waiting for first yawn then in bed shortly after. It's strange since he always yawns as soon as he hits the mattress so I'm stumped as to why he's UT for those first naps?
BW mentions to act on first yawn and in bed no later than third...
What are your thoughts on this?
Thanks again for all your support. I appreciate it very much

[Papaya]

BW mentions to act on first yawn and in bed no later than third...

I think that's true for a young baby, but not necessarily as they get older - they may yawn from boredom (want a change of scene), or habit (used to having a nap at that time).

I think I asked this before, but any teeth coming? Just thinking of other possibilities - naps around 1hr-1hr10 were sometimes teething discomfort for my LO.

[Loafie]

He has two bottom and four top so not sure it's that... Ill check tomorrow:)
Good point about tired signs. The yawns are normally after other tired signs though..ie scrunching face into my shoulder, eye rubs, ear pulling etc. ill keep persisting and let you know how tomorrow goes:)
Thank you!

[Loafie]

Just ha another thought.. Could it be habitual waking? Worth trying WTS maybe?

[Papaya]

Oops, missed this, sorry! Could be...seems an odd length for that though But I'm a fan of W2S, it's always worth a try How are things going?

[Loafie]

Hi ! Just an update. I was getting nowhere with pushing his A times. I started by just working on AM naps and got to 3h50 A time and ended up with shorter and shorter naps ie 50 mins and a very very OT baby PM naps dropped to 30 mins and numerous EW etc.  so I decided to take it back to under 3 h A time for the last 3 days as see how we went. He's now takin 1 h15 AM naps and 1h 10 PM naps ( no CN but SEBT) and he seems really happy and not OT.
I know we're not at the 1h30 naps that LOs are ' supposed ' to have but im happy with that for the moment.
Thanks again for your help papaya. Really appreciate it!

[Papaya]

Glad you've found something that works! Some LOs do have a shorter sleep cycle, more like 35-40 mins, so a "full" nap for them is shorter - perhaps yours is one of those. Anyway, good to hear that he's happy.