PU/PD and W2S not working to extend naps - baby screams remainder of nap

[Joy-filled]

Please help!  We've implemented Baby Whisperer techniques for the past month and had some success but some not.  Our 5 month old is now able to fall asleep independently 9/10 times for bedtime and for naps (yay!).  However, he wakes up after 30 minutes for almost every single nap.  I try my best to follow a 4 hour EASY routine but it's really challenging as for an entire month I have devoted my entire life to trying to help him sleep through his naps.  I pretty much feed him every 4 hours but it sure has been challenging because short naps really throws things off.  I've tried every W2S method (waking him up at 25 minutes, trying pressure at the jolts, trying shush/pat, etc.) however none have worked.  The odd occasion I've been able to shush/pat or pressure at the jolts him through to a 1.5 hour nap but 95% of the time it doesn't work.  It gets to the 30 or 45 minute mark and he wakes up and escalates to screaming. So, I then have to resort to PU/PD but this just makes him angrier and angrier.  He ends up screaming for the entire rest of his nap (1 hour) and never settles.  We've tried EASASE a few times but this has been completely unsuccessful as he will start screaming as soon as I try to put him down the 2nd time and he will not settle and then it's time to feed him again.  It's crazy, as soon as I take him out of the room to stop forcing him to sleep he's all smiles and happiness and he's a super happy baby.  Lots of smiles, never cranky, etc. until it gets to 2-2.5 hours after he last woke up and then he gets a bit fussy but it's really not much at all.  Even if he only slept 30 minutes he's still happy that whole 2 hours!  Do I just let him sleep 1/2 an hour and stop making both of us suffer through hours of screaming a day? I don't want to because then there's no 4 hour EASY but I'm starting to think this is a little insane.  I don't know what to do!  Oh, and the problem isn't that he's undertired and I need to extend his A time as I only put him down to sleep around the 2 hour mark (or longer because he didn't nap and I had to feed him which extended his awake time past the 2 hours) and I always make sure he's showing me that he's tired first - fusses even if I change up the activity, rubs his eyes, etc.  Please help! 
If it's helpful, here's a typical routine:
7:30 E - Wake up and Feed (feeds take 45 minutes to an hour as my milk flow is slow)
8:30 A -
9:30 S - Wakes up after 30 minutes and I then spend the rest of the nap time with him screaming
11:30 E
12: 30 A for 5 minutes
12:35 S (He has now been awake for 3 hours but I had to feed him at 11:30 to do the 4 hour EASY and feeding takes up to an hour)
1:45  - wakes up and let's pretend this day I was able to get him to fall back asleep
2:30 - wakes up and has A time as it's not time to feed him yet
3:30 E
4:30 5 minutes of A time so he doesn't associate feeding with going to sleep
4:35 S
5:30 wakes up and has A time with a bath
6:45 E
7:45 S for the night (generally sleeps until 7:15 or 7:45 with a dream feed, wakes up a few times in the night but 9/10 times puts himself back to sleep.

He is currently screaming with my husband who has been trying PU/PD for the past 40 minutes to extend his nap.  I don't know how much longer I can handle this! If this is a developmental thing, is it okay if I try APOP?  Maybe if I give him a pacifier at the 30 minute mark and shush pat to help him go back to sleep? I don't know what else to do as my baby needs sleep, he's definitely not getting it, but I don't want to make him dependent on any props or do AP?  Please help!

[Papaya]

Hello and welcome to the boards

Firstly, big hugs. I hope we can help you to help your little boy get some sleep!

In general, I think your LO sounds super OT, if he's hardly napping. How long have you been doing the 2 hr A time? For that first nap of the day - is it usually 30 mins? 30 min naps are often OT, but as 2hr A is at the lower end of the average range for his age I'm not sure it's that. Is he closer to 5 months or 6? It could also be really quite UT/US - or discomfort. Are there any signs of reflux, wind or other discomfort - is it only when he's lying flat that he gets so upset? Is there anywhere he sleeps well that is a more upright position (baby carrier, etc)? Has he ever done long naps?

For the rest of the day, I think you need to be reducing your A times more after a short nap - he'll be getting OT for sure with those long A times after short naps. After a 45 min nap, I would reduce A time by about 15 mins; after a 30 min nap, maybe by 20 - 30 mins. Count your A time from when he actually woke, not from when he *should* have woken if that makes sense - or you'll get OT naps all day. Personally, I would only try to extend a short nap for about 15 mins, then get LO up. You could maybe do a top-up feed then, so that you can then actually have some A time and still try to get LO down before he's OT without worrying about missing the next feed time. At this age it's actually quite common for the E and the A times that LO can manage to be a bit out of sync

If the PU/PD is not working for you, I would actually stop for now. He's falling asleep independently, so this is not just a sleep training issue. Be gentle on yourself - definitely AP a few naps in the stroller etc so you can get out of the house and LO can at least catch up on a bit of sleep. It is MUCH harder for a LO to sleep well and transition through those sleep cycles when they are OT.


xx

[Joy-filled]

Thank you for the big hugs (need them!) and your reply!

So you think he's OT even though he's happy between naps and not cranky?  You have to be right since he's not getting enough sleep but I had started to question that since he is super happy whether he's slept or not.  Also from Day 1 out of the womb he's been a very alert baby who has slept much less than what is typically needed.  But I'll trust that you're right and he does need the sleep, even though he doesn't show me that he does with crankiness (which I am grateful for!).

My son just turned 5 months this past week.  I've been doing the 2 hour A time before the 1st nap for the past week and a half.  Before that it was 1.75 hours as he had a hard time lasting that long in the morning but I've now been able to stretch it to the 2 hour point for that first nap.  But the A times after that are super wonky and a minimum of 2 hours because the feeds extend them, but if possible that's what I was aiming for.  I do count the A time from when he actually woke, not when he *should* have, it's just that it gets extended by the need to feed him. 

I really don't think it's UT/US as we make sure he gets a decent amount of activity in his A time (but not too much) and I make sure to wait for tired signs or if he's slept terribly all day then I'll just put him down after the 2 hour mark whether he shows signs of tiredness or not.  No reflux or discomfort either.  He used to nap well in the car seat or stroller but I honestly haven't left the house with him in a month as we've been trying to sort all this out and didn't think it would take this long!

What a great idea to only try to extend a short nap for 15 minutes and then get him up and do a top up, then A time, and then try to get him down again before his next feed!  I hadn't thought of that.  How relieving to hear it's common for the E and A times to be a bit out of sync!  I'm also relieved to hear I can do a bit of AP to get out of the house, let him have a good nap and we can stop with the PU/PD...it's been insane.  Yesterday I fell to pieces, crying right along with his screams....totally overwhelmed!  If, however, after a short nap, top up, and A time I am not able to get him to go back down what do you suggest?  How long should I try to get him to sleep again?  If I can't, should I just feed him more and not worry about spacing feeds 4 hours apart?  It sounds like it's more important to make sure his A times don't go too long than to have his feeds 4 hours apart.  Is that right?  (sorry for the long reply!  I really appreciate your input and feedback!)

[*Kara*]

I do count the A time from when he actually woke, not when he *should* have, it's just that it gets extended by the need to feed him. 

Just popping on to say that A time includes everything from when eyes open to eyes close - so really, eating is part of the A time if you see what i mean...

Example:

baby wakes for the day at 7am and nurses for 30 mins.  Nap begins at 9am.  This is an A time of 2 hrs (7am wake to 9am nap start).

Hope this helps a bit.

[Papaya]

It sounds like it's more important to make sure his A times don't go too long than to have his feeds 4 hours apart.  Is that right?

At this age, for my LO, the sleep was my priority -  so I was aiming for a 4 hour EASY, but if she short-napped sometimes the feeds were only 3 hours apart. And sometimes, if she did a monster nap, they were 4.5! But it usually evened out by the end of the day. So if your LO is generally taking good feeds and you're not concerned about milk intake etc, I would try as much as possible to avoid OT by getting him down for a nap when he needs it, and fitting in feeds as best you can around that.

[Joy-filled]

I do count the A time from when he actually woke, not when he *should* have, it's just that it gets extended by the need to feed him. 

Just popping on to say that A time includes everything from when eyes open to eyes close - so really, eating is part of the A time if you see what i mean...

Example:

baby wakes for the day at 7am and nurses for 30 mins.  Nap begins at 9am.  This is an A time of 2 hrs (7am wake to 9am nap start).

Hope this helps a bit.

I have been counting A times from wake up to next sleep but my one question is, do I aim for him to be asleep at the 2 hour mark OR in his crib trying to fall asleep at the 2 hour mark (or around there, depending on tired signs)?  I have been aiming to have his WD completed at the 2 hours and have him in his crib to then try to fall asleep.  Is that right?  Or should I have his WD completed 20 minutes before the 2 hours since it takes 20 minutes to fall asleep (if all goes well ?

[Papaya]

Aim for asleep at the 2hr mark. Some LOs take 15 mins to settle themselves, others will be out in 2 mins if you get the timing right! So allow for how long it takes your LO to settle. If it takes any longer than 15-20 mins, he may be either UT or OT when you put him down.

[*Kara*]

do I aim for him to be asleep at the 2 hour mark OR in his crib trying to fall asleep at the 2 hour mark

Eyes opened to eyes closed (meaning sleeping, not settling to sleep)  

Like Nuala said, depends how long your LO takes to settle... mine is one of those 2-3 min kids for the most part - if I get it right!

[Joy-filled]

Thank you!  That is quite helpful.  I aimed for that yesterday and he fell asleep within 7 minutes by himself for both his morning nap and afternoon nap and I had much more success with HTTJ to extend his naps than I usually do, probably because he wasn't OT .  Unfortunately for the catnap he took 15 minutes to quietly put himself to sleep but then suddenly started to mantra cry and then escalated to screaming for the remainder of his nap, despite attempts to help him sleep with PU/PD and shush/pat.  But at least we got 2 out of 3 naps yesterday! We'll see how today goes..... thanks again for all of the help!

[SEA0680]

Hi- I just want to extend my support to you! I am in the exact same situation. Always 30 minute naps, PU/PD and shush/pat never worked to extend them. Tried to do EASAS and that didn't work either. Everyone says 30 minute naps at OT, so tried decreasing A time, with no success. Honestly, from all my reading and talking to friends it sounds like some babies only do 30 minute naps until they are older (6-9 months). Since my LO doesn't seem very tired after he wakes up, I am letting him get up after the 30 minute naps. He is a very determined, spirited baby and trying to force him to sleep doesn't work, and just aggravates us both! I had gotten him to a 4 hour EASY, but due to the 30 minute naps have reverted to a 3.5 hour EASY, with a 3 hour EASY before bed. And I do AP techniques (rocking him in chair) after he wakes up from the afternoon nap to extend it and make sure he doesn't get chronically tired. I don't know what else to do!

[*Kara*]

Hugs ladies - there are many babies who are short nappers until the 6 month mark..

[Joy-filled]

Good to know that there's hope for the future and that I'm not the only one struggling!  Hopefully my son does indeed grow out of this at 6 months as this nap thing is really consuming my life.  I'm glad to sacrifice for him but it just isn't healthy to spend my whole day just nursing him (since the feeds take so long) and trying to get him to sleep the rest of the time.  The last couple of days have been particularly challenging.  Lots of resistance to go to nap (especially the cat nap) which leads to OT which leads to lots of screaming for the duration of the nap time as he's unable to go to sleep.  Not fun.  I think I need to loosen up a bit and do more APOP? ...I'm just so afraid of him becoming dependent on rocking and the pacifier again! It's tough to know the balance but I'll keep at it!

[*Kara*]

I am the self-proclaimed queen of APOP

[Papaya]

Especially the catnap! He'll be dropping that one in month or so anyway, so if you can make life easier by getting him to take it in the stroller etc, do it

[Joy-filled]

Good to know!  Before coming on this website I didn't know APOP was an option....Tracy was insistent on consistency, which I totally understand, so I stuck to her every suggestion religiously.  Finally, ready to pull out my hair, I found this forum and decided to post.  I'm glad I did! I needed to balance out a bit.

Anyway, the last couple of days have been truly challenging.  Not even APOP has worked.  Rocking in the chair, giving the soother....nothing.  Hours of effort with very little return.  I even cheated with the stroller last week and he still woke after 30 minutes and then just stared quietly in his stroller for the next hour as I kept walking, hoping he'd fall back asleep.  Poor guy, he's having such a hard time napping.  Generally quite happy (or somewhat dazed) all day, as long as I'm not trying to get him to nap .  Even the falling asleep independently is falling apart since he's so sleep deprived.  And then last night he started night waking, which he hasn't done for weeks.  Again, likely from sleep deprivation.  We're in a vicious downward spiral of OT leading to more OT. What to do when APOP won't even work??? I don't expect any suggestions (but if you have any feel free to offer!), just thought I'd give an update.  Hopefully I'll have better news in a few days or weeks, in the meantime I'll just keep at it!