2yo still not STTN, need real help with routine - gone all wonky

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, we have been stuck in a rut with DS and his sleep since he was 18 mo. He has never been the best sleeper, we often have little bouts for a few weeks where things improve then it's all back to square 1. This time it is driving me NUTS and before I officially lose my mind I really need some help please 

So a bit of background, he has always been in the habit of waking early...usually 6 Am is a great start for us!! For ages we were getting wu between 5:30-6 then things settled down for a bit and we were sort of following this routine:

wu - usually around 5:45/6 Am
nap - by 12 he was asleep and would sleep usually until 1:45 or 1:50 (so an hr 45 mins or so)
bt - would take him in around 6:50/7 - he would always take aaages to fall asleep and would usually sleep by 7:45
Nws - he would have a couple of odd nw where he wanted a cuddle then would go back to sleep.

Then about 2 weeks ago he started cutting the nap by himself and would wake after 1.5 hr around 1:30 pm or so.  Then I noticed his morning wu also got a bit later and he started waking after 6 usually around 6:15 Am, which was wonderful!

But he still took forever to fall asleep at bt (another issue I wanted to get sorted out!!).

But then he started doing a weird thing where on the odd day he only napped for 1h10 mins and then would still be fine all evening and his night was still good. So I just left it and he was sort of doing his own thing.

But then he started having a problem in the past week or so where he started resisting the nap. So I tried to push it out a bit and for a few days he only napped around 12:25 or so and I was waking him around 2 (so essentially after 1.5 hr) Then I was doing bt at 7 pm. When I did this the nap resisting was improved but the EW came back to 5:30 am!

so I thought maybe he was OT, so I went back to the 12 pm nap...now we're in an awful place of nap resisting, but also still with the EW..and I"m not waking him up from the nap (which is back to about 1h45 min, now). ..here is our routine from the past 2 days, it's a mess:( and now we're also having some early NW, which I don't know is from OT or UT?

yesterday
wu 5:30 AM  (woke up crying and wanting to go out and play..refused to be cuddled back to sleep even)
nap 11:55 - 1:55 (i woke him. He initially resisted the nap but then fell asleep and then slept till I woke him)
bt - took him in at 7, read etc, lights off at 7:10, he messed about till 7:50 then slept
NWs - 10:30 brief, then up again at 5:25 am today

Today
wu 5:25 AM  (once again screamed and shouted until I took him out of the room - woke DD up too  )
nap - 12 - 1:30 (woke on his own today though, and was happy)
bt - in at 7:15 (got a bit late cos we had to go out to dinner) but fell asleep by 7:45, which is less time taken than normal..maybe that's means something??
NW - so far brief one at 9:50

what should I try ladies? I am SO SO over DS and his sleep. It's been 2 years and I've tried everything to get some consistency and STTN...I get these odd nights for a few weeks where it's good, then something again which I can't figure out. He is an independent sleeper, but he wants me to sit there till he sleeps which I don't mind doing because DD also wants that, they share a room. I dont think that is a reason why he's waking in the night, because he has STTN before. I feel like if I don't have the moon and stars and planets lined up just the right way things are all a mess...why can't I just get some consistency? I try so hard, and sometimes I just feel like giving up 

Does he need a nap cut? push out the nap time a bit, but that's hard right with the EWs? or is he beginnign the 1-0 mess already? is he OT, UT? I'm at a loss at to what it is... DD only started the nap drop thing way past 2.5. and even then, I could figure out how to deal with it. This little monkey has just turned 2 and he has just been an atrocious sleep all along, and now it's just worse!!!!

please help me ladies, I would really appreciate any advice! Thanks in advance

[*Ali*]

I do think his nap is too long for him to be doing a decent night. I would cut it back slowly to an hour and see if that helps him tack on to his night.

Also, have you tried wake to sleep at 4.30 to break the 5.30 habit? Do you have a groclock and if so do you set it for a reasonable time (I would do 6am in your case to start with) and enforce it by keeping him in his room in the dark until the sun come up?

Is he going to sleep independently for naps and nights?

[ZacsMumme]

How old is he now in months?
I'm actually wondering if some of this mess that's started up ie 1hr10 naps is developmental and/or teething?
Hugs x

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Honey, sounds like an UT/OT loop to me, due to his nap being too long for him now. IIWM because of the current EW I would set nap time (it sounds like he could handle it) and cap at 1.15. Then I would stick to a 13 hour day maximum but adjust it slightly shorter if he seems to be OT near BT. WRT him taking ages to settle, this could put itself right with a routine change, but some LO's do take a while to settle, and if that continues, how about a longer WD so he's more chilled by the time you want him to sleep 

Here's a link on the 1-0 Hun, you should find this helpful:

The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.

I hope this helps Hun, between us we'll see what common ground we have and hopefully figure it out 

x.

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, thanks SO much for coming over to this post I can't do this without you!

Again today we had an EW, it is just frustrating because he will not settle back down if I don't take him out of the bedroom straight away he starts shouting and I rush him out so that DD doesn't wake up!

Today ended up like this:
wu 5:30
nap 11:55 - 1:25 (he woke up on his own again, and he didn't fuss going to sleep).
bt - I took him in at 6:55 (the earliest I could really manage) He took FOREVER to fall asleep, he was talking, singing you name it. I got so annoyed by the end! he finally fell asleep at 7:45

I am also beginning to wonder whether this thing is developmental or what..but seriously how long can I keep that as the reason for his nonsense I thought he was going through that 2 yr regression thing early when all the issues started in Nov last year.. now he's 2 and still!!

So do you think I should set nap time at 12? but then wake him up at say 1:15 pm and then when should I attempt BT?

I have in the past tried to take him in earlier so that even if he takes long to wind down he will be chilled by the bt I hope for, but that has backfired on me before...he gets a case of UT leading to OT and then I get heaps of NWs all night long

The only thing I'm worried about is the few times that I did wake him up from the nap at around 1.5 hr he was really tired and kept falling back asleep...but on those days I had pushed the nap out a bit to about 12:30 (after a 6/6:15 wu) so I don't know if it was because of that.. It's so confusing I don't even know anymore!!

I''ve noticed he is now regularly doing less than 10 hrs sleep at night (9h45 min) and about 14+ hrs days.. the balance has to change somehow.

[chicagomom]

I''ve noticed he is now regularly doing less than 10 hrs sleep at night (9h45 min) and about 14+ hrs days.. the balance has to change somehow.

this is us to a T!!!  my DS is 25 months and i am thrilled when we get 10 full hours at night (but lots of times it is 9:45).  it is SO frustrating!  the difference over here is that DS has always loved longer naps.  i have been capping naps to 2 hours this whole week (DS likes 2.5-3 hour naps) in hopes that he would tack onto his nights, and after 1 week of capped naps he woke up yesterday morning at 4:45am after going to bed at 8:15pm.  and then he only had a 45 minute nap yesterday.  it was AWFUL!!!!  thankfully DS had an 11.5 hour night last night as catch up, waking up at 6am today.

i am not sure if i should push on with capping his nap, TBH.  our sleep consultant (who we have used with both kids) is actually okay with 10 hours if DC is napping 2-3 hours during the day.  my DS has ALWAYS loved longer naps.  i think i may have to accept his biorhythms for now. 

before i was capping the naps this week, our days looked like this:

WU around 5:45am
nap 12:15/12:30-2:30/2:45/3pm (really depends and can't go earlier due to school)
BT in bed at 7:30/7:45, asleep by 8pm

on this schedule, if i put him to bed before 7:30pm, he would wake up at 4:45am every time, without fail, and not go back to sleep.  clearly he was UT, so that doesn't work for us.  i have learned the hard way that DS definitely needs 5 hours A time before bed for sure, even with a longer morning. 

[*Ali*]

I would cut the nap back gradually to give his body time to adjust if you have found that cutting it before made him OT.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

Honestly since starting to Mod I have seen this situation many times. I believe it is a mix of development and the 1-0.

I have in the past tried to take him in earlier so that even if he takes long to wind down he will be chilled by the bt I hope for, but that has backfired on me before...he gets a case of UT leading to OT and then I get heaps of NWs all night long

Yes this does happen Hun, so if that's been the case before it's unlikely to change.

IMHO it is a matter of finding the right nap length/night length balance. Some LO's do need a longer nap/shorter night in order to function at their best, but often if the nap is TOO long the long days can sometimes back fire and cause serious OT, so as I said it is usually a matter of finding the balance. It also depends if you can deal with the long days yourself, as selfish as I sound saying it, I am done by 8.00pm and my patience is done and dusted    .

The only thing I'm worried about is the few times that I did wake him up from the nap at around 1.5 hr he was really tired and kept falling back asleep...but on those days I had pushed the nap out a bit to about 12:30 (after a 6/6:15 wu) so I don't know if it was because of that.. It's so confusing I don't even know anymore!!

This is a really important point too. If he will go down for his nap earlier then that will likely be your best option if you are going to cap. The longer the morning A time the more restorative the nap needs to be, so he is more likely to be grumpy and still tired like you describe in the past. An earlier nap if possible, will also mean a long enough A time to BT, which will hopefully rule out UT WRT that long settling. Even if he has accumulated OT short term UT (for the day in hand) can often overcome that OT..hope that makes sense 

IIWM in light of your last post, I would go with set A times, rather than set nap times, for us this always worked out just as well WRT resetting Sam's body clock and resulted in set nap time in the end. So how about trying a set A time of 6 hours about WU. Then keep capping at 1.5 for now. Then go with a 13 hour day, so I guess it would look like this with the current 5.30 ish WU:

WU 5.30

Nap 11.30 to 1.00 capped

BT 6.30.

In the hope that it will give you an 11 hour night at first. Then what can happen is, when he is feeling less OT that WU could sneak later when sleep begets sleep, otherwise you may be able to eventually push his nap out a little short term to push BT later too.

What do you think  It also depends whether an EBT is achievable or not 

(Hugs)

x.

[shresmummy]

That's great advice ladies

The thing about ds is that, unfortunately I don't think he will nap at 11:30 am no matter how early he wakes up, it almost seems like his body will only go into rest mode around noon. And similarly even if he happens to wake later on an odd day and I try to put him down after noon i really have problems.

I have been trying to stick to a 6 hr A time from wu, but it seems that he needs it to be plus or minus 10 mins to noon. If I put him down around 11:30 he will only nap for 45 mins, after REALLY fighting it! Then he spirals into ot by bt..

Basically he's a bit of a mess when it comes to routine

Similarly even if I put him to bed early, he very rarely sleeps before 7:30 usually at 7:45.

Today, i tried to see what would happen if I followed the 13 hr day and it ended up

Wu 5:40 (after nearly sttn for just under 10 hr, after brief nw at 4:15 am)
Nap 12-1:35 (I heard him stir at 1:35, I went in but he had gone back to nap, but I slowly woke him up)
Bt - took him in at 6:40, light off at 6:45

Then I was stuck there till he finally stopped singing and chatting and reviewing the whole day at 7:45!!!! I thought I was going to go stir crazy!

My latest thoughts are, I wonder if I should slightly push the nap past 12 say to 12:30 like I did before, then let him sleep up to say 2:15 (so 1hr45 mins) then do bt earlier than 5 hr A time so that he doesn't get ot, at say 7 pm (after 4h45 min) and then hope he sleeps by 7:30 pm...maybe he will then wu at 6 am?? Maybe I can even try bt at 6:45 so that he is asleep by 7:30 if he takes longer to settle?

On the few times that everything seemed to go well, he had 10.5 hr nights and 1.5 hr nap...I would beaver the moon if he did that regularly!!

What are your thoughts ladies? I also really wonder if I may have to ride this out...he is suddenly talking SO much! Maybe it's developmental? But I wish I could sort out the balance of nap vs night..

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

Okay so you must trust yourself on what you already know and go with it. So if you push the nap out to whatever time you think he will settle best, then wake him after 1 hour 45, there is a chance that he will settle better at BT, and I know you don't think capping at 1.5 with a late nap doesn't suit him as he is dropping off afterwards. So if you go with that, then even though the nap is 1.45 hopefully as it's later it won't be too restorative for him to fight BT. I would put him down at a 13 hour day and as long as he isn't screaming and tantruming, try to stop worrying about how long it takes him to sleep, that is pretty much beyond your control and as we said may pass if it's developmental, ie: his little brain is finding it hard to switch off because there's so many other things he could be doing! 

If he clocks up 12 hours he may be okay. With a nap Sam was doing 11 hours at night and 1 hour nap, and that was from quite soon after he turned 2. Without his nap now we get closer to 13 hours, it's all about the spread. But your DS may need the long  nap/short night. As long as he becomes well rested and you don't go completely round the bend, life is good 

Good Luck Honey!

x.

[*Ali*]

That seems like a lot of sleep to me but worth a try. You know him best. Are you happy with the long nap and short night?

Are you working on getting out the room before he is asleep? Are you remaining silent or just repeating your sleepy phrase while he is chatting away? Going down independently should help him settle more quickly and sleep later as he will be happier in his bed.

[Truly Blessed]

Are you working on getting out the room before he is asleep? Are you remaining silent or just repeating your sleepy phrase while he is chatting away? Going down independently should help him settle more quickly and sleep later as he will be happier in his bed.

If I knew that he wasn't an Independent Sleeper, then I forgot    As Ali says that's really important Hun, often it's tricky to know what a LO's sleep needs are if they're not Self Settling.

x.

[shresmummy]

Well, he is effectively an independent sleeper in that when he's actually ready to sleep after monkeying around he will just lie down and pass out, I don't have to o anything. The problem I face is that he wants me there in the room. He will play in the cot, get up and lie back down a 1000 times, play with the blanket etc you name it....all in that ,1 hr it takes at bt. But half the time his leg gets stuckinthe cot or his socks get loose or something happens then I need to go fix him up and tuck him back in...

But mostly I'm just sitting there, and when I needo go tuck him in again I repeat time to sleep. But if I try and leavethe room he goes nuts and starts protestingetc.. Plus he gets too worked up to then settle himself.

That's where we are at with the independent sleep.

Last night he sttn from 7:45 pm - 5:30 am..
Today we hada very similar day to yesterday.
Wu 5:30
Nap 12-1:35 (he woke up himself happy)
Bt lights off 6:50 (the earliest I could get him down) but he took till 7:45 tosettle tonight as well.

Somehow those two times of 5:30 am and 7:45 pm refuse to budge!! the nap capping he is essentially doing that himself at 1.5 hrs isn't he? Also touch wood the nap protesting has reduced a bit...so I'm tempted to stay with that for a bit, but today he ended up with 6.5 hrA time in the am but stillwoke himself at 1.5 hr after nap.. What do you think? Should I have attempted bt earlier? Later? 

[Truly Blessed]

Well, he is effectively an independent sleeper in that when he's actually ready to sleep after monkeying around he will just lie down and pass out, I don't have to o anything. The problem I face is that he wants me there in the room. He will play in the cot, get up and lie back down a 1000 times, play with the blanket etc you name it....all in that ,1 hr it takes at bt. But half the time his leg gets stuckinthe cot or his socks get loose or something happens then I need to go fix him up and tuck him back in...

But mostly I'm just sitting there, and when I needo go tuck him in again I repeat time to sleep. But if I try and leavethe room he goes nuts and starts protestingetc.. Plus he gets too worked up to then settle himself.

That's where we are at with the independent sleep.

This is exactly where we have been for months and we still are Hun, so I completely get it.

What do you think? Should I have attempted bt earlier? Later?
Report to mo

I think it's worth a try Hun, but honestly, my gut tells me the only way this will improve is to cap the nap more so that you can achieve an earlier BT. I know he is really tired upon waking him from a shorter nap, but once his nights have extended he will get over that, so it would be a matter of pushing him through in the interim.

What do you think Hun 

x.

[*Ali*]

I agree with Vicki that if you want longer nights then the nap has to be capped more. You can do it slowly by 10mins every few days if he is susceptible to OT but I would be working towards not letting him have more than 1hr.

WRT the independent sleep I know when we had to start staying in the room after moving to a BBB at 28mo it made a huge difference to his sleep to get back to leaving him to fall asleep alone. We sat silently in the pitch black room but it still meant he woke wondering if we were there and when we weren't he was then too awake to drop off again I think. Can you move to the door and outside the door gradually? He needs to be happy to be in the room alone to enjoy all the benefits of being a true independent sleeper IMO.