please help multiple NW again after 2 weeks of pat/shh success at 6 month

[ChloesmomJing]

DD is 6month and one week. She had terrible NW and EW since 4 month and the only way to put her back to sleep is to walk her and bounce her. and she'd still wake up more than 6 times a night especially after 5am it was almost no way to put her down. So we started using pat/shh (pu/pd doesn't work well in our case) to teach her to go to sleep herself and it worked really well. eventually she'd only wake up 4 times and most of time easy to put her back or just for feed (she is EBF and we just started solid) and I felt some of them are habitual waking. the major remaining issue is EW. most of the day she still wake up around 5:30 and could take up to an hour to put back or we just exhausted and started the day as it is. 

HOwever since 3 days ago, she started to have multiple NW again! the day before yesterday, she slept at 7:10p and wake up at 10 so I fed her and then she totally wake up and scream. It took us 2 hours to put her back to sleep. then then she wake up at 1:30, 4,5,6 each take at least 20min to settle and each time she cry like murder.. last night we put her to sleep at 6:40 (this is another issue I'm not sure if she is on the 3-2 nap transition but that day she only took 2 naps mornig 1.5h and afternoon 2h for the first time so I have to put her to bed earlier) and she woke up at 8p, 9p, 9:45p (fed her), 11p, 12:30a, 1:30 (fed),3:30, 4:30, 5:10 (fed), finally wake up at 6:30 cooing. however, different from the night before, last night she was easy to settle at we need was to put a hand on her side and she'd sleep back. today she again took 3 naps and her bed time was 7:12p. but she woke up at 7:45p. I'm soooo confused and exhasuted. Why she has so many NW? growth spurt? UT? OT? teething? habitual wakings? or all above?

because of her EW, I wasn't able to keep her EASY very well sometimes has to put her to nap earlier. also depends on the length of her nap her day shifts (should I keep her schedule or read her cue?). just since yesterday her morning nap lengthen to 1.5hr (it used to be 30-40mins and never longer!)
So now it looks like this (for today and yesterday)
WU 6:30
E till 7
A 7-9:10a (had solid around 7:45)
S 9:10-10:40
E
A
S1:25-2:40
E
A
S 5-5:15
6:20 wind down bath, feed etc
7:00 put to crib and cry till 7:12 to settle

Thanks for reading this long post. I hope I described my problem clear. I'm so confused and exhausted my mind is like a mess..and I apologize for my poor English..

Jing

[ChloesmomJing]

and she woke up again at 9p scream..

[katie80]

Hi Jing, please don't apologize for your poor English, I had no problem understanding.  (((Hugs))) for being exhausted, that's a lot of NWs!

I think you might have a combination of some OT and discomfort.  That many NWs in such a short time often indicates discomfort.  It could be teeth, it could be the solids you are starting.  Is the only time of day you are currently offering solids in the morning?  What types of things are you offering?  Have you tried giving meds if it is teeth?

As for the routine, it looks pretty good and yes, I think you're right in the middle of the 3-2 transition.  I wonder if you keep gradually pushing out the A times to closer to 3hr (esp the second one), you might get more consistent naps.  As it is, the second nap isn't full and then the CN is really short at 15min, so I think she's OT by BT and having a tough time sleeping in the beginning of the night.  Here's a bit of info on the 3-2: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Hope that helps!

[ChloesmomJing]

Hi Katie,

Thank you so much for your help.
Let me describe our today's schedule first because it is a typically problem caused by her EW. We had another bumpy night last night. After woke up at 7:45, 9, she later woke at 9:45(so I fed her, but she only eat one side and woke up 10mins after I put her back and she settled around 11p), 1:30a (fed her again with another side), 3a, 4a, 5a and then she won't settle she cried, played, then I decided to feed her to give it a shot to put her back to sleep. I failed and she ate only one side and was still awake! finally I gave up at 6:25a and somehow she seems to me to be hungry again so I fed her this time both of us fell into sleep.....(I was too exhausted). then we woke up at 7:50a. SO apparently our day is totally shifted. she #1 nap is at 10:20 for a really good 1.5h, then #2 at2:40 for 1h. So I started her BT early and she settled at 6:40p.
I'm still not sure when the EW happened what should do if I failed to put her back to sleep. Should I keep the routine no matter what? Would the OT ruin the whole day?

And Katie, thank you for your excellent questions. When she started the NW my feeling is discomfort. I was suspecting the teething then the solids. I am examining her gum everyday with no luck. Her chronic teething symptoms have been there for months like biting and chewing everything she can get, drooling like crazy etc. So I'm confused.
as for solids, since we just started, I bought some baby food jar from store as well as cook some by ourselves. the day before her first bad NW I introduced jar food squash in the morning. for the rest of the day I only gave her some apply which she has been eaten for 2 weeks. I didn't see any obvious food allergy sign but I felt she has more gas during the night and some very minor eczema in her face. DH and I were argue about it but I stopped it since yesterday anyway (yet last night was no improve..). and now you mention, I remember yesterday around 5p I gave her some sweet potato (first time having any solids for dinner) and she really liked it and ate probably 2T with some porridge. we've had it a couple times in the mornings before so I know she is not allergic to it. But could it possible that she's not used to having solids for dinner? For today she actually refused all the solids I offered (jar prune in the morning, cereal in the noon). But she still likes apple as snack in the late afternoon. We'll see how she do tonight..

Jing

[katie80]

Should I keep the routine no matter what? Would the OT ruin the whole day?

I typically went by A time at this age.  So, if she's doing around 2h30min-2h45min A, I would aim for that from whatever time she woke up, otherwise yes I think you would be fighting OT all day.  On an EW day, you will definitely still do a CN and maybe even a bit longer one (45min rather than 30) to get to a decent BT.  Does that answer your question?

Her chronic teething symptoms have been there for months like biting and chewing everything she can get, drooling like crazy etc. So I'm confused.

She probably is working on them, but they're just coming up still.  My DS started those active teething signs around 3.5-4mo and got his first teeth at 5.5mo, so it can take a little while for them to get there.

As for the solids, at this age I'd only offer two meals, in the morning and at lunch or early afternoon to give her time to digest them during the day rather than at night.  It takes a little while for their digestive systems to get used to solid food, so it may be that she just needs a little less.  The gassiness and possible eczema may be signs to slow down a bit, and it sounds like you're following that.

Good luck for tonight!

[ChloesmomJing]

Hi Katie,

Our last night improved significantly. Still no where close to STTN but she only woke up 5 times and 2 of them I think were due to true hunger. You are right about solids. And yesterday she didn't eat much. Also thank you for the solids suggestion. I think to do breakfast and lunch first makes a lot of sense. I was so into making her sleep longer by giving her solids at dinner that I overlooked her feeling about so many new things going on!

I have one more question about NW. When we first started pat/sh method, I decided to try DF at the same time. so I tried several time point from 10-11p and seems didn't really make a difference. So I stick to 10:30p. and it worked quite well. I took her from her crib to our bed as I like to feed her in our bed during the night. So she'd finish whatever she want and drift off. Then I put her back and she only stir once if any before fall back to sleep (and it is also the same if I feed her when she woke up out of hunger). However, lately she will wake up immediately after being put back or wake up wide after only 10min after the 10ish feeding (either way) and need up to an hour to settle. like Last night, I finish feeding her at around 12a and she woke up 10min later and she seemed cannot find a comfortable position to fall back to sleep so she kept flipping. And eventually she drift off by herself at 12:47a and slept till 4:30a to eat. Is it a sign of UT? at her BT she put herself really easy and I thought we had a pretty to day..

Thanks again!

Jing

[katie80]

Glad to hear the night went better!

The DF can actually disrupt some babies' sleep and doesn't help as much.  How long have you been doing it for?  Did she go straight back to sleep when she woke on her own for the feed?  Is it right that she fed for 1.5hr, from 10:30-12?  That is a really long time and I think would definitely disrupt her sleep.

[ChloesmomJing]

I'm sorry I didn't describe the situation very well. Lately since she is on the 3-2 nap transition, sometimes our BT routine is really rush. especially I don't want to put her to bed too early before 6:30 as I'm afraid that her EW will get worse. our BT routine is: play on our bed, bath, feed, story and then crib. after bath, she was so tired that she could not eat much without falling asleep. I have to keep talking to her while she's eating and that makes her angry since she's too tired to focus to eat awake and she got cranky and won't eat anymore. So i have to move on to put her to sleep. with that the night I mentioned she woke up around 8:30 for a feed but only get to eat one side before falling back to deep sleep. So around 11:30p when she woke up again and hard to put back, I decided to feed her again. SO that last 20min-ish.
anyway, I found that we always evolving new problem. I checked my record and I've tried DF for more than 2 weeks the same time as our pat/sh method. the DF stopped working 8 days ago. and after that I kept trying for a couple days and not very successful. SO I didn't strick to it anymore. If she woke up around that time I'd go ahead and feed her. But on the good days if she sleeps good I'd do iDF(now I write it down, I feel I probably did something really non-sense, maybe I should just let her sleep on the good days right?).
As for go back to sleep, lately almost every night at least once she'd woke up and hard to be settled and that usually happened after I feed her. after I transfer her to her crib sometimes she woke up right away sometime she seems to sleep sound yet woke up wide anywhere from 10min to 30mins. for the long wakings, sometimes she cried really hard sometimes she just play.. even the long waking time is not consistent could be any time but always in the second half of the night when we were sleeping in the room (and yes, we currently have to share the bedroom..)

[katie80]

Yeah, I'd drop the DF if I were you. She's getting close to the age where you'd drop it anyway and the older they get, it really can disrupt sleep. Just know that you'll probably still have at least one NF (possibly 2 until you get through the 3-2) for a little bit yet and that's normal.

As for the pre-BT feed, you could always offer it before bath on the more tired days or even drop the bath altogether on those days, so that she hopefully takes a better feed a bit earlier.

[ChloesmomJing]

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. They all very helpful. hopefully she could drop extra NF gradually since now I still feed her 2-3 times.. the third one usually happened after5 which really disturb the morning feed.
I'm working on extending her A time to 3 hrs. She seems is doing fine. interestingly after a 2 nap day she slept a little better during the night. and she certainly slept better if I control the totally nap time under 3 hrs. Is that normal? Does it still fit the sleep budget sleep theory? But anyhow I don't see she will make a 12hours sleep. So our day would always be 13hours. put altogether our EASY schedule is a bit tricky to put through...

[katie80]

hopefully she could drop extra NF gradually since now I still feed her 2-3 times.. the third one usually happened after5 which really disturb the morning feed.

Maybe without that DF, she'll redistribute the feeds better, so they happen at the right times for her and you won't have to worry about the after 5 feed. 

interestingly after a 2 nap day she slept a little better during the night. and she certainly slept better if I control the totally nap time under 3 hrs. Is that normal? Does it still fit the sleep budget sleep theory? But anyhow I don't see she will make a 12hours sleep. So our day would always be 13hours. put altogether our EASY schedule is a bit tricky to put through...

Yes, this all sounds very normal.  If you don't think she'll make 12hr sleep overnight though, I'd let her get more than 3hr nap time, so that a 13hr day is more easily attainable.

Sounds like you're making good progress.  Keep up the good work!

[ChloesmomJing]

Thank you. Hopefully we can stick to the good S and A and that's again hopefully also gonna help the night time.

[katie80]

Hopefully we can stick to the good S and A and that's again hopefully also gonna help the night time.

Yes, that's the theory! (If only there weren't so many other factors! )