Help! New problem waking up 1-3 hours after put to bed

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))) for a tough BT last night.  I understand the feeling of frustration.  Would DH be willing to handle BT tonight in case it doesn't go well so that you can have a break?

In our house, 30 min of sleep followed by screaming is OT.  When DD is UT, she wakes up after 30 minutes and plays for an hour or more (which is actually way more frustrating for me than when she screams).  I'm guessing that maybe the A time before bed was too long.  I know it's hard to get that one right - I've found that I have to look at the day as a whole when figuring out when to put DD to bed.  If she's had short naps, I go for an earlier (but not too early BT) and if her naps have been good, she can do a pretty long A time.  We try to keep our day 12-13 hours long - closer to 12 (or less) for a short nap day, closer to 13 on a long nap day.  HTH.

I know you are thinking of combining the 3rd and 4th naps and I'm thinking that since things aren't great right now anyway, you might as well go for it - in for a penny, in for a pound iykwim.  Maybe it would help to APOP all of the naps to be sure he gets good restorative ones and that might get you back on track to a routine with 2 long naps and 1 short CN. 

[SEA0680]

Thank you so much! Yes, DH needs to help more. It's hard, though- sometimes he doesn't get home from work until 9pm. But yes, I'll get more help.

What's a little confusing is that the screaming only happens if we try and soothe him back to sleep. If we picked him up and brought him out of the nursery he'd be very happy. Again, it's like he's thinking of these evening sleep-times as naps, not bedtime. I feel like he screams when I try to make him sleep and he doesn't want to (UT?).

Unfortunately, my APOP technique has started to fail me. Once yesterday and already once today I couldn't extend the nap past the 30 minutes- LO happy and awake. So, what A time should I use? had planned to increase A time for 3 to 2 transition, but now thinking I will use 1:45 to 2 hour A time. And what about pre-bed A time? What would you recommend?

[lily_layne]

Unfortunately, my APOP technique has started to fail me.

Would he get a better nap in if you held him the whole time or put him in a swing?  If he usually has not trouble going to sleep in his crib, I don't think a few days of that would hurt.

So, what A time should I use? had planned to increase A time for 3 to 2 transition, but now thinking I will use 1:45 to 2 hour A time. And what about pre-bed A time? What would you recommend?

Is he waking up from the naps happy or screaming?  If he's not happy with the short naps, you'll need a shorter A time.  If he's waking up ready to play, go for a longer A time.  This is what DDs routine (on her best days - many days were far from this) was like a few weeks ago - maybe this will work for your LO.  Adjust the times based on when he wakes up. 
WU & E (bf and solids): 8
A: 8-10
S: 10-12
E (bf) & A: 12-2
S: 2-4 (this nap was often shorter - if it was, I would give 1h45-2h A before the CN and let her sleep 10 min longer for the CN)
E (bf) & A: 4-6
S: 6-6:15 (I often had to rock her to get her to sleep for this one)
E (bf & solids) & A: 6:15-7:45
E (bf): 7:45
BT: 8 - sometimes it took half an hour to get her to go to sleep

I feel like he screams when I try to make him sleep and he doesn't want to (UT?).

I often felt like that also and honestly, on most nights I never could figure out if it was UT or OT.  If he's not screaming when he first wakes up, it's ok to leave him until he needs you. Does he stop screaming when you stop trying to resettle him? I know that on many nights our LO would have been happy if we left the nursery even though she was exhausted - she is spirited and loves any chance to be awake and play:)  The only time we left her room was if she was absolutely inconsolable and then we would dim the lights and take a quiet walk around the house until she was calm.

I can't remember if you've mentioned it before - what "type" is your LO (spirited, touchy...)?

[SEA0680]

Hi- thanks for all your help.
Yes, I could try doing the entire nap rocking him.
He wakes up happy and wanting to play. In fact, despite only getting 8 hours of sleep last night, this is what his morning looked like:
6:15am wake up
7:45-8:15 sleep (seemed tired, likely due to 8 hours of sleep)- 30 min, couldn't extend
10:45 sleep (tried 1:30 A time- resistant; tried 2:00 A time- resistant; finally fell asleep easily with 2:30 A time), slept 30 min in crib and 1 hour rocking him

When I look at the routine you have, your A time is 2 hours. Should I increase mine and try for the 3 to 2 nap transition? It's hard when he wakes up so early and naps are short- we've already had 2 naps today and it's only 1pm!

No, he screams as long as I try to resettle him and make him go to sleep. As soon as we take him out of the crib or stop trying to actively get him back to sleep he slowly calms down, and then we try to soothe him back to sleep 15 minutes later.

[lily_layne]

Should I increase mine and try for the 3 to 2 nap transition? It's hard when he wakes up so early and naps are short- we've already had 2 naps today and it's only 1pm!

If you think his naps are UT, then I would increase A time.  Right now, we are at 2h20 and depending on nap lengths some days DD has 2 naps and some days she has 3.  I think it might be best if you pick an A time and stick with it for a few days even if you get short naps - I think it takes a few days for LOs to adjust.

As soon as we take him out of the crib or stop trying to actively get him back to sleep he slowly calms down, and then we try to soothe him back to sleep 15 minutes later.

That's what works here too!

[lily_layne]

Rough evening at my house tonight.  DD went to bed easily at 7:30 and then woke up screaming at 8. It's now 9:15 and DH is still trying to get her back to sleep. Maybe you shouldn't take my advice

[Erin M]

Maybe you shouldn't take my advice

I actually would (sorry you're having a rough night sweetie, the 4-6 month mark is just brutal for sleep!) -- it's really good advice. 
Totally agree regarding a few things -- if he's napping 30 minutes and waking up happy, probably needs more A time -- the exception is if he's WIDE awake and kind of hyper -- in which case he may have been overstimulated before the nap. But, if you're pretty low key during A time and you don't think that's the case, I'd go with more A time.  Honestly, I think you need to just bite the bullet here and push to 2 naps by stretching A time -- you're at the right age for it, and he certainly seems to be showing you he's ready.  Even though he *seems* tired during the day, try to hold to that longer A time and do whatever you can to get a decent length nap into him.  Hang in there, please don't leave him to CIO, long-term it doesn't solve anything. 

[SEA0680]

Thanks for the advice and support! Today most of his A times were 2.5 hours, so I think we're on the right track. Unfortunately, he's still resisting my APOP techniques to make sure he's not OT, but I'll keep trying tomorrow!

[Erin M]

Keep on going!  Glad to hear about those 2.5 hour A times. 

[SEA0680]

Hi- wondering if I should just keep trying the same approach. A times 2-2.5 hours today and only had 2 naps (better than normal- both 30 minutes, then extended  by another 2 hours with APOP). Went to sleep at 8pm with minimal resistance, and woke up 30 minutes later awake and ready to play. Still trying to get him back to sleep.

7:10 wake up
S: 9:15- 30 minute nap extended to 2 hours using APOP(2 hours A time)
S: 2:30- 2 hour nap using APOP (2.5 hours A time at time of wind down, was probably OT- very resistant to nap)
Sleep for bed with wind down starting at 3 hours A time (didn't seem tired before that, sleeping at 3.5 hours A time; woke up 30 min later

I think I need to stick to a 2.5 hour A time for all cycles and see where that gets me. Frustrated that he keeps waking up after being put to bed. Any other ideas?

[lily_layne]

it's really good advice. 

Thanks, Erin.  That makes me feel like I kind of know what I'm doing:)

I think I need to stick to a 2.5 hour A time for all cycles and see where that gets me. Frustrated that he keeps waking up after being put to bed. Any other ideas?

That sounds like a pretty good plan.  I totally understand the frustration - by evening I'm pretty thin on patience so after bedtime wake-ups are extremely frustrating for me.  Maybe try having him asleep at BT by 2.5 hours even if it seems early - it might help prevent the wake up afterward but even if it doesn't, at least it will be earlier in the evening so that maybe by the time you get him back to sleep, you'll still have time for yourself.

[SEA0680]

OK, I'll try that. Last night after he woke up 30 minutes after "bedtime" he was awake and wanted to play for a while, and since I had made a nice Valentine's Day dinner that we were just sitting down to eat we brought him out and let him sit with us while we ate. I tried to put him back to bed about an hour later and we had a 45 minute battle with hysterics trying to soothe him back to sleep. LO ended up going to sleep for the night at 10:30pm.

This is driving me crazy. It's like he's completely lost the idea of "bedtime" until after 10pm. Is this common?

[Erin M]

It's like he's completely lost the idea of "bedtime" until after 10pm. Is this common?

Sometimes babies try to shift their days a little, so they're doing something more like 10-10 (tacking the first nap on to night sleep) instead of something like 7-7 or 8-8.  Really, the solution there is to just keep pushing that first A time until you get a good long one with a good nap after. 

I totally understand the frustration - by evening I'm pretty thin on patience so after bedtime wake-ups are extremely frustrating for me. 

I was very much like this too, it's hard to have wake ups in the first part of the night (or any part of the night!)

I think sticking with the 2.5 hour A time for all A times is a good plan. 

[SEA0680]

Hi- I could really use some advice. Things are overall better, but I'm confused. Basically, not matter what napping combination I did, or different A times between last nap and bedtime, LO still wakes up 30-45 min after bedtime. It's like he doesn't recognize that it's bedtime until after 8:30pm or so. When I looked back through all my records of our sleep-battles I realized that once 8:30-9pm hit, he generally stayed asleep. and I realized that since he wakes up around 7am, that 9pm-7am is 10 hours of sleep, which is what one of my other baby books say is average for a 5 month old (Baby 411). So, I decided to stop fighting him to go to sleep between 6:30-8pm (what I was doing, following baby whisperer guidelines) and to aim for 8:30-9pm bedtime. I wish he would get a little more sleep and go to bed earlier- any ideas about how to make that happen?

Also, A-times have stabilized at about 2.5 hours. Tried to cut out third nap, but since he is awake from about 7am-8:30pm, 2 naps isn't cutting it, so are trying to get 20-30min third nap about 2.5 hours before bedtime. However, he is extremely resistant to the third nap. Every day it's a huge battle- I know he's tired, but he starts crying hysterically if we do the nap-time routine. I have to make multiple attempts to get him to sleep, and am thinking that I may need to resort to car-rides or baby-wearing for this nap if I can't get him to sleep. Any ideas?

Lastly, I am still rocking him to sleep and then easing him into the crib. I really want to teach him to go to sleep independently, but am not sure if I should get his schedule solidified first or just bite the bullet and attack both things simultaneously. I've put it off for so long because I was always trying to get his sleep schedule perfect, so I'm afraid to keep putting it off, since once you fix one thing, something else starts going wrong! We stopped swaddling about 2 weeks ago and it definitely made it harder for him to fall asleep, but I think we're at a stable point with that. Any ideas to help him sleep independently?

Thank you very much for any advice!

[Erin M]

OK, here's a thought -- why don't you try 2 naps and an early bed time for a few days -- and then if you can get him asleep around 7 or so, try wake to sleep around 8:15 to see if you can get him to skip that waking at 8:30-9.  You'd have to try it for about a week to see if it works, but it might work. 

You can also try to get the third nap in by any means you can -- car, etc -- but with mine once they had decided they were done with that third nap it was really hard to get them to take it, even with driving in the car or walking or something like that. 

I would just go ahead and bite the bullet and get rid of the rocking -- at his age his schedule is going to be shifting pretty consistently until you're on one consistent nap so sometimes it's easier to just go ahead and do it.