Where to start? 6 mths old only naps 30 mins

[swmw]

 I need help with dd2 who is 6 months old and only naps for 30 mins. 

Before I start I have to explain that dd1 was not a good napper and a shocking night time sleeper  - and we got hit with 45 min naps at 11 wks old and it lasted till 6 mths. 
This broke me. I went a little bit crazy - actually a lot. It was not a good time for me :-(
Couldn't get w2s to work so I httj for every nap, used sling/car drives if necessary - just to make sure she didn't get OT. She was a NIGHTMARE when OT. I only just survived it mentally and when I got pregnant again I prayed that dd2 would not be the same. 

The fact that I'm posting here tells you she is! She started doing 45 min naps at 6 wks old. I played around with A times but I couldn't extend the naps. I decided I could either just accept it and move on - staying sane or I could become the neurotic possessed mother I was before! I decided just to accept it. 
We trundled on - she napped whenever she looked tired but only did 45 mins with the odd 30 OT nap here and there......... Then more 30 min naps.......... and now they are all 30 min naps. We've not had a 45 min nap in a while.  
(I know 30 mins is OT for her because in the early days if I pushed her too far,  I'd have to settle her - and she did 30 mins. ) 

She is a very chilled out baby and doesn't seem to suffer with OT meltdowns like dd1 did so my dh and family around me don't think it's a problem - but I know it is and I've got to try and fix this but I don't know where to start.....

She's 6 months 3 days old.... 
She sleeps in her cot, it's not blackout because that was a real issue for us with dd1 who would only sleep in the dark, therefore wouldn't sleep at nursery and so I'm forbidden by dh to make the room blackout! 
She SS in her cot. Unless A time is too long and is OT then I have to sit and pat her as she cries really badly. 
From wake up she only last 1h45 before she's tired. By 2 hrs she's getting crabby and has to go to sleep. On a 30 min nap I try and have an activity time of 2h then quick wind down at aim to be asleep by 2h15 and generally this goes on throughout the day. I like her to be waking up around 4.30 from her last nap as bed time is around 6.45. I will put her in the sling or, if dd1 is at nursery, take dd2 for a drive in order to try and achieve the last nap to prevent too much OT before bed time. 
A sample day is 
Wake up : 6.15 (Wakes around 5.45-6.30) 
Breast feed & finger food breakie (going to try BLW this time) 
A - 2 hrs
S - 30 mins
A - 2 hrs - will give bf when needed. She feeds every 3.5 hrs ish.
S - 30 mins and so it continues.
Bath 6pm
Bed 6.30-6.45

We've been BLW for 1 week so intake is negligible. 

Doesn't often stir early evening. Sometimes NW around 12 but i can pat her back to sleep  She has a habitual night feed at 3am which I cannot seem to break (tried w2s but it wouldn't work - I used this very successfully with dd1 so I'm baffled why it won't work but think that's another post for another day!)
Dream feeding doesn't seem to work with dd2

There really isn't much structure to the day and bless her she has to fit in around dd1 activities. But I feel really sorry for her and know things needs to change. She's surprisingly good natured after a 30 min nap and no too ratty but still think its unfair. 

When I can,  I let her nap on me - when dd1 is at nursery or at weekends when dh is home. It happens about 3 times a week. She sleeps for 1.5 hrs on me or sometimes I have to wake her up! Tried her in a pushchair & rocking but she still won't go longer than 30 mins. If she's in the sling she wakes after 30 mins but I can generally get her back to sleep. 

This week dh put her down after 2h45 A time (previous nap was 30 mins) and she did a 2 hour afternoon nap!!! I couldn't believe it. First time since 6 wks old she's done that in the cot. I tried an A time of 2h30 next day and she was too tired and was very upset! 
But this proves she can transition now?....... 

Help. Where do I start? And advice is appreciated :-) 

Xxx

[*Becky*]

Hi there,
Ok, well DS was a terrible napper and I know how stressful it can be.
It looks to me like she is doing pretty well at night - sleeping 11-12 hours. I would not worry too much about the NF atm. 6 months is still pretty young to not need any feeds for a BF baby. Am I right in thinking she is an independent sleeper as long as the timing is right? Does she put herself to sleep at night?

First of all I would try and extend the first A time. The average at this age is 2.25-2.5 so she is probably needing a bit of an A time push. Having said that if you get a short nap you then need to pull back a bit so usually we take off about 30 mins before the next nap to prevent OT. Does she have white noise?

Have you tried HTTJ for the short naps? I am thinking that she has an issue with transitioning past 30 mins and she is reliant on you to do that for her. Where possible I would have her nap in the cot as she 'could' be becoming dependent on you either rocking her or holding her yk?

what do you think?

2.25-2.5

[swmw]

Hi Becky, thanks for replying. I'm in fear of going totally over the edge soon so I need some help!!
Yes she is an independent sleeper if the timing is right. Chats away then falls asleep. She falls asleep independently at night no problem. During the night feed she does feed to sleep but I don't really feel that is an issue.
I know I need to extend the A time - its just I'm a bit scared to do it as she's already only doing 30 min naps. This morning she did 2h20 A in the morning. She was totally happy (had yawned at 1h50 - but know its habitual) when I started to do wind down and she realised what was happening she started to cry. My baby hardly ever cries at all. She sooooo mellow :-) Anyway I had to help her settle - she fell asleep, did 30 mins but this time she woke up and started crying within 10 mins which is very unusual for her. I know she was definitely OT but I makes me think if the other times when she wakes up after 30 mins she's not OT.........

Is it possible to have a transitional problem at 30 mins? - actually it's more like 35 mins. I thought the translation issue was at 45 mins?

She has a slumber bear for white noise which is suppose to go off every time she moves or cries but tbh it's a bit old as it was dd1 and not very sensitive anymore so doesn't often go off. If I was to play white noise to her would you suggest doing it throughout the nap ?? I'd be worried she would become dependant on it or should I not worry about that yet ?

I briefly tried HTTJ but it is difficult with dd1 around. Tbh pre 30 mins she doesn't often jolt, she just stirs slightly and then opens her eyes. With dd1 I could never HTTJ for 30 min naps - only 45 min ones so I guess I've been discouraged to continue for that reason. She's a tummy sleeper by the way so she doesn't really move her arms around much.
I would say 70% of her naps are in the cot....

I have to confess that yesterday I put her to sleep in a blackout room, she woke after 30 mins but went back to sleep and slept another 1h30......my husband was very cross. I honestly cannot describe the problems we've had/still have with dd1 because she will only sleep in blackout rooms  She hardly ever slept at nursery, was sooo overtired and we had such long night wakings. It was horrendous  I don't think I can go through that again. Dd2 will go to the same nursery, they don't darken the rooms so she will have to sleep on mats on the floor ..... I'm trying to prepare her for that. I know I shouldn't presume that dd2 will be the same as dd1 but we made a promise (or rather I was made to promise DH!) that dd2 would learn to sleep in the light.......
I really don't know what to do for the best. DD1 has scarred us and I guess dd2 is suffering because of it? BTW dd1 is nearly 3 and still only sttn about 3 times a week!

[*Becky*]

I have to confess that yesterday I put her to sleep in a blackout room, she woke after 30 mins but went back to sleep and slept another 1h30....

yk I have to be honest I would just use them....
When is she going to nursery? I understand your concern but tbh I tend to deal with things as and when they occur and if she likes to sleep in the dark and sleeps better then use them.
If she is in any way spirited then needing it to be dark is completely normal, DD will not sleep in the light either. It is a pain but just the way it is.
She may surprise you too and be fine when she goes to nursery.....

It is possible to have a transitional problem at 35 mins. DD woke on the dot at 35 mins for months and months so I feel your pain. In the end we did set naps to save my sanity but I am not saying that is what you should necessarily do.

A lot of it is developmental too... DD grew out of it.

Maybe try 2.10 in the am and see?

[*Becky*]

oh...and I checked with fellow mods and 35 min naps are usually UT so I would stick with the higher A time xx

[swmw]

Thanks soooooo much Becky. I didn't realise 35 min naps were UT. I thought OT. It's all beginning to make a bit more sense!
She's going to nursery at 9 mths - so 3 months time. But with dd1 it wa so terrible. So much OT combined with separation anxiety that I'd really like it if she could sleep more than 30 mins at nursery - but I guess I need to get her to sleep more than 35 mins at home first!
Thanks again. I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders! I feel happier pushing her A time now 

[*Becky*]

good
keep me posted xx

[swmw]

Back again - just a little clarification ..... I know this isn't a rule but......
30 mins = OT........ 35 mins = UT ......... 45 mins = UT or transition issues. Would u say 40 mins is UT too?

Yesterday morning was great. First A time was bit too long by mistake - 2h40 but she napped for 2h15!!!!!
Afternoon activity was only 2h15 but she was really cranky - put her down and she only did 45 min so I'm guessing UT?
Today A time of 2h 30 in the morning but a 40 min nap....... She was bit grumpy afterwards which is making me think OT but just wondered what your thoughts were?

Thanks x

[*Becky*]

for us 40 mins was usually UT but if she is waking sad then it would point more to OT....if they wake sad then I always go with OT but if they wake OT and are then grump after it is more likely UT which has made them OT as day goes on - does that make sense?

[swmw]

Help! I'm back again! Finding it really difficult to get the correct A time.
Wondering if someone can look at this.... I've no idea what to do this afternoon...

WU - 6.20 but had long BF and she did fall asleep on me - woken by older sis at 7.20!
S - 10 (A-2h40)
      Woke up after 35 mins, left in cot & went back to sleep by herself 20 mins later (I'm thinking b'cos she went back to sleep was that OT?)
      S - 10.50- 12.20 (1h30)
A - 2h50
S - 3.10-3.55 (35 mins - UT???)
Bed time: 6.45
Quite a few night wakings due to rain, ended up co-sleeping)

WU - 8
A- 3 hrs
S - 11 (35 mins - surely not still UT after 3 hrs in the morning???)
Rest of the day was a mess with short naps and car journeys

Today
WU - 7 (woken up by sister again)
A- 3 hrs
S - I have to admit this was no me as I'm sooooo desperate for a nap myself I needed her to nap
     10-11 ( 1 hr - is that UT or OT?)
     Managed to resettle her and she slept 11.30-12.20 - when she was woken by the phone ringing.

I'm thinking to put her down about 3.10? For an afternoon nap which I know is late but the A time will be 2h50

Anyone give me any ideas how long A time to try in the mornings? 3 hrs seems a lot and getting 35 min or 60 min nap
She's 6 months & 11 days!!!!

[swmw]

Well she didn't last till 3.10.....
Starting getting ratty and I put her down at 2.50, she was really crying, patted for 10 mins, was asleep for 3.00. (A2h 40) Slept for 40 mins only...... Grumpy for rest of the day.
Any ideas???

[*Becky*]

I would not go over 2.5 hours at this age seeing as she is early 6 months and if you jump A times too quickly you can end up in OT land.

You really have to go by her a lot of the time i.e. is she waking happy or sad, does she go back to sleep again etc. A times are just a guide. If she goes back to sleep after waking then she was OT rather than UT. Usually an UT baby is not going to go back to sleep.

On the first day you posted it is tricky as she fell back to sleep and although that is great in some ways, it is hard to gauge when to PD for the nap. Some lo's like their first A to be shorter than the others - do you think this is her? If so you might want to aim for 2.30 or something like that and then if you get a good nap you could try the same or push to 2.5.

It is not a specific science...unfortunately and I know it is frustrating.

[swmw]

Thanks for your help again Becky
I'm just getting frustrated as it looks like 35/40 min naps can be UT or OT for my lo and that's just not fair!!! I'm finding it so hard to read her!!!
DD 1 liked a shorter am Acitivity so I'll try a shorter A time in the morning. She always looks tired after 2 hrs so she's too hard to read!
Thanks for your help again xxx

[*Becky*]

I know and tbh a lot of it is developmental at this age. If it continues you can think about setting naps just so you can relax a bit with A times. x

[dancermum]

Thank you so much for posting this, I'm having similar troubles with my DD (who is 5.5 mths) and am thinking I might need to extend her A times as well. What do we mean by doing "set nap times"? At the moment I usually just put DD down 2 hours after she's woken up (which usually coincides with her tired signs) and we get naps between 30-45 minutes. It means the day can be very unpredictable although she's on a fairly predictable 4 hour feeding routine. She napped well up until about 16 weeks, which is when she started doing short ones. She also sleeps well at night (7-7 with a DF and usually just the one NF). We have also had a couple of phases where she did at least one good nap a day, although they've never lasted more than 4 days. So I know she knows how to transition through sleep cycles, how to self settle, etc. I've tried everything, and am now just in acceptance mode thinking either this is a cat nap phase (not sure if nearly 2 months counts as a phase though!) or that one of my books is right and during the day there's really not much you can do since their body clock isn't telling them it's sleep time. Trying to extend her naps makes both of us stressed and cranky, but am interested in this "set nap times" to get a bit more structure which would make me a happier (read: better) mama and hopefully help her a bit too.