Author Topic: Please Help! 21 month old - Amazing sleeper is now regressing to NW every hour  (Read 2068 times)

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Offline Agnes00

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Hi there,

Thank you for taking the time to read my post  :)

I am at my wits end and this is my last resort.  My 21 month old DD who has been on EASY since birth has always been an amazing sleeper (couple bumps here and there but we always got through them), great eater and all around a happy go lucky girl.  We have had A LOT of changes in the past 6 months... Moving, sickness, surgery, and a newborn brother coming home.  My DD had a dislocated hip and required surgery and was in a cast for the past 6 weeks.  She got out of her cast the same day that I went to the hospital for a planned c-section.  She then stayed with grandma (at our home) for 5 days and then when my husband and I got home from the hospital with a newborn brother all hell broke lose.  She was very jealous for the first week but then she very quickly started to love her brother as we encouraged her to spend time with him and give him kisses.  The NW's started exactly at the time... got better for a few days and then back to square one... It's been 3 weeks since we got home from the hospital from the cast removal and also with her newborn brother. 

The newborn is just an angle baby and that is making things better but my DH is waking up every hour with my daughter and is at his wits end as he has to go to work everyday. 

We did rock our daughter when she was in the cast but as soon as she got out we went back to our old bedtime routine... bath, change for bed, bottle on the rocking chair (without rocking), the transition back to not rocking went very smooth... she did not protest, nighttime snuggles and then we put her in her crib and stay with her until she falls asleep on her own (usually 5-10mins).  She would then sleep through the night but now she will sleep for a couple hours and then wake up constantly as if she has separation anxiety.

Please help! Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Routine:
7-Wake + 8oz bottle of Milk
7:15 - Get ready for the day (wash, dress)
7:30 - Breakfast
12- Nap
1:30- Wake
5:30 - Dinner
7- Night time routine
7:30 - 8pm - Sleep

+ 1 snack in AM and 1 snack in the PM

Thanks again

Offline Aggiebeth06

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Just wanted to stop in to give you :::hugs::: and to encourage you that you will find the right answer.

I'm not sure I have many ideas about how to help, but one question that I have is what your/DH response is when she NW? Is she in a crib? What does she do when she NW?
DS is spirited/touchy.
We started EASY at 6 months on a 3 hour routine but are working towardsa 4 hour EASY. DS is BF and was OT to begin with. He also decided to take a developmental leap as we started sleep training.


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Hi there.  I read your post a few times and I see this problem started 3 weeks ago but there was a period of her settling ok and sttn after you weaned the rocking, is that right?  how long then has the screaming NW been happening, a few days or a couple of weeks?

Two things come to my mind
- second year molars which are truly painful and wreck sleep, my DS cries like someone is attacking him on a really bad night and also acts like SA, so bad that I bring him to my bed even though he can't even sleep well there.  I have no worries about APing him some sleep even bad sleep because he will go right bakc to independent sleep straight after the pain passes.
- language development.  We had a couple of terrible periods of sleep and at the end of both a huge language leap.

I know you must be tired having a NB but I think lots of cuddles and soothing are needed to help her through this difficult time.  Independent sleepers usually return to independence very quickly (with little or no weaning) after their difficulty has passed so I wouldn't worry about bad habits or APOP at this point.
((hugs)) it must be hard.


Offline Agnes00

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I'm not sure I have many ideas about how to help, but one question that I have is what your/DH response is when she NW? Is she in a crib? What does she do when she NW?
[/quote]

Thank you so much! When our DD calls out for us in the middle of the night DH goes in and first sees if patting her on the back will comfort her and she will go back to sleep... if that doesn't work and she wants to be picked up we use the PU/PD method and if that doesn't work after a couple tries he will pick her up and sit with her in the rocking chair without rocking until she falls asleep and then we put her in her crib.  When she cries out for us she usually calls "mamma, dadda"... over and over and has a mantra cry but we tried to wait to see if she will settle on her own and she never does until we go in.  Some nights, DH will settle her, return back to our bedroom and 20mins later she is up again and we start the whole process.  I sometimes go in to give him a break as he goes to work but its hard on me to as I'm up with the NB every 3 hours feeding and changing.  I just don't know what to do to get her back to sleeping through the night.


Offline Agnes00

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Hi there.  I read your post a few times and I see this problem started 3 weeks ago but there was a period of her settling ok and sttn after you weaned the rocking, is that right?  how long then has the screaming NW been happening, a few days or a couple of weeks?

Thank you so much for your reply! Now that I think about it, the NW really started when my we went in for the surgery and my daughter came home in a full spica cast (body cast) and she was uncomfortable in the cast... She would wake up a couple of times to be turned as she couldn't turn herself and I also had to change her diaper once otherwise she would leak through her double diaper... We did have a system in place and over time the NW got better... I set my alarm and change her diaper without her waking up and turn her at the same time... Most nights she didn't even wake up.  When we got home after her cast came off and I gave birth, the first week was hell... constant NW so we rocked her to comfort her but than noticed that we were accidental parenting and stopped one night and she did not protest that we didn't rock her anymore... we had a couple of good nights where she didn't wake up or she just woke up once but about two weeks ago she started the frequent NW's... Not sure what to do now... How do we help her to sleep through the night again?

Two things come to my mind
- second year molars which are truly painful and wreck sleep, my DS cries like someone is attacking him on a really bad night and also acts like SA, so bad that I bring him to my bed even though he can't even sleep well there.  I have no worries about APing him some sleep even bad sleep because he will go right bakc to independent sleep straight after the pain passes. It really does sound like SA as some nights were so horrible that my DH couldn't get up anymore and he just took her into our guest room and co slept with her and she slept right through the night... We don't want to continue that so we don't create any bad habits.
- language development.  We had a couple of terrible periods of sleep and at the end of both a huge language leap.

I know you must be tired having a NB but I think lots of cuddles and soothing are needed to help her through this difficult time.  Independent sleepers usually return to independence very quickly (with little or no weaning) after their difficulty has passed so I wouldn't worry about bad habits or APOP at this point.
((hugs)) it must be hard. Thank you  :)

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Hmm, it's hard to know if it is related to the body cast and the habits of night sleep built through that time or if it is something quite separate, seeing as she did have some nights not rocked and sttn before the NWs returned.
The NWs when she was in the cast are totally understandable, great that you worked a system to help her sleep and it does sound as though you managed her transition out of the cast and welcoming her new brother really well.
If it is SA due to language development or the changes in family life with the NB around, really all you can do is ride it out.  SA isn't a sleep training problem, because she is already sleep trained.  Same with teething pain, you can medicate before night sleep but the need to be close to a parent for pain relief and comfort is huge.
Have you tried pain meds before sleep?  Maybe a top up in the night?
Is there any chance she has any pain related to the dislocated hip or wearing the cast?  Muscular pain for example that is disturbing her?
Is it possible for one of you to go in to her whilst she is sleeping and just let her know you are around.  Sometimes I go in to my DS and give him a quick rub on the back and just say 'Just checking you're ok honey, call if you need me'.  Although she is asleep it could help to reassure her in her sleep and possible reduce the SA.  Is she able to keep herself comfortable at night now?  Do you think turning her may help?  I'm just wondering if she has become so accustomed to you changing her nappy and turning her that she now misses that, even though she was sleeping, it might need a gradual wean from being attended to at set times in the night?  Just an idea.

Is her nap capped?  Wondering if there is some OT or OS with all the changes and extra stimulation of the family dynamics changing and perhaps she needs some extra sleep to keep rested enough to sttn.

Sorry, no simple, answer, just throwing ideas out there in case anything strikes a chord with you.

More hugs, this must be exhausting for you and DH xx


Offline Agnes00

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Everything you're saying is totally right... I do think its SA with language development and also a little bit of OS and OT.  Yesterday, we went to the doc as DD had a cold and she missed part of her nap ... she only slept for 1 hour vs. 1.5 hours and we wanted to put her down early for the night but we were both so busy with the NB and getting dinner ready, DH was late from work etc.! When I put her in bed for the night she just kept repeating all the new words she is learning... I thought to myself it's definitely OS and language development.  Last night was tough... we were up with her a lot.  This morning was interesting too... If DD doesn't get a good night sleep it totally effects her mood in the daytime.  Hopefully today will be a better day... We will just have to ride it out I guess and hope for the best!  At least, thanks to your advice I have an idea what's going on with her  :) Thank you for the support! Hugs! 

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we went to the doc as DD had a cold
Ah, well there is another winner for disturbed night sleep!  My DS gets SO many colds (or ear infections etc), one of the first signs is disturbed night sleep, it's usually a couple days later the sneezes, running nose, cough, wheeze etc become apparent.  That's one of the reasons I don't look to alter our routine after a few bad nights because chances are it isn't the routine it's a virus.

she just kept repeating all the new words she is learning...
Oh I know that so well!

xx


Offline Agnes00

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Well another horrible night with constant night wakings and it took me an hour to put DD to bed... We were up with her at least 5 times last night.  It's frustrating because our NB sleeps so well and our 21 month old is having such a hard time.  Here is my action plan and let me know what you think:


1)stating BT routine earlier so DD doesn't lose even more sleep and become OT
2)start sleep training WI/WO method... I think we will give it a try.
3)night wakings... Any suggestions on what to do? currently, we come into DD room when she cries for us pick her out of her crib and hold her in the rocking chair (without rocking) until she falls asleep and then we put her back into the crib until she wakes up the next time.  This has been taxing on us... we can't continue this as we are just exhausted... I do this with DD 5 times a night and then have to go and feed/change the NB.  What would you recommend to do for the night wakings? DD will continue crying until we pick her out of bed. 

Thanks again for all the support! This forum has been a sanity savior for me :)

Offline Agnes00

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I know we had discussed and I was sure that my daughter had SA but now I am starting think its not... When our DD was in the cast we did a lot of AP... rocking and co-sleeping but now I'm starting to think that its not and our DD has just got used to us running to her rescue in the middle of the night ... here is a quote I got from one of the pages:

 "Parents often mistake older toddlers manipulation for separation anxiety, which usually starts between 7-9 months and disappears by 15-18 months, that is, if parents are gentle and reassuring and haven't restored to some sort of Accidental Parenting as a solution to childs fears.  Therefore, when the parents of a two year old come to me and say "my child is waking at night because he has separation anxiety", nine times out of ten that's a child who has learned how to manipulate them"

This is exactly what I think is happening with DD... Plus, she is fine when we drop her off at daycare... no SA, and she is not clingy during the day and doesn't cry when we leave the room...

Thoughts?  I guess I am just desperate for a solution :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 15:47:42 pm by Agnes00 »

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hugs, it's so hard for you to go with so little sleep.

I honestly don't think she is manipulating you.  A lot has changed in her world recently and even an adult who understands about change would find the adjustment difficult.

Does she have her molars coming through?  Are you medicating before BT?  Is she able to communicate with you regarding pain, ie if you ask her if something hurts or ask if she wants teething gel or medicine?

I know I mentioned language development which, honestly gave us a rough rough ride for a time and I know many LOs go through a bad patch with those language leaps.  But even more so the molar teething is AWFUL!  There is a support thread for parents going through molar teething, and we are all in agreement of how utterly awful it is for our LOs (and sleep deprived ourselves) and how LONG it goes on for.

Staring BT routine a little earlier may well help with getting her to sleep on time, yes.
Regarding NWs, I know it must feel utterly impossible, but I would
- verbally reassure immediately (can be outside the room),  Pause to see if the verbal reassurance and use of key phrase helps, go to her as soon as possible and do a very quick PU, cuddle an sooth and PD, use the key phrase again.  She *might* not need holding for a long time but she might well still need a quick PU.

I'm sorry, I don't have much time right now, my DS just got up from his nap (and is teething!).
more hugs, hang in there, this will not last for ever.  You will get through it  :-*


Offline Agnes00

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Amazing! That is great advice! Hugs to you and your teething baby!

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Hi, I just wanted to come back with a few more thoughts.

I don't know about the body cast, how big it was or how it restricted her movement etc, however, I'm thinking it must be a big adjustment having it removed.  She has gone from the feeling of being restricted (could we think of this like a form of swaddling, restricting her movements and sleep jolts?) to sudden , overnight, freedom or her entire body.  A 21 month old is too old for swaddling but perhaps it helps to explain some of the NWs, if she enters light sleep and would ordinarily move into a transition to the next sleep cycle (as we all do several times during the night), she might then feel the freedom or lack of restriction/swaddle/cuddle and find this disturbing.  6 weeks in a cast is a very long time for a child, time passes so differently for them.  I wonder if there is some muscle stiffness remaining from the cast also?  Does she has some physio to help her muscles strengthen again?  Do you massage her?

A note about SA.  Often LOs don't show SA or emotions that they are struggling with when they are in company.  They very often save their bad feelings for the people they are closest to, mummy and daddy, so although she may be happy to go to day care and have fun whilst she is there, it doesn't mean the difficult feelings surrounding all the recent changes have gone, it just means they are on hold, waiting for release with you (lucky you!!).  Teething pain is similar, can appear not too bad int eh day when they have many distractions and things to do and play with, but magnified in the middle of the night when there is no stimulation to distract them from the pain.

Also, about the passage you quoted from BW.  The reason I don't think this is the case with your LO is because she was already an independent sleeper, slept well, and is highly likely to return to that once her difficulties are resolved (whether that is the body cast, the NB, teething or language or a combination of all of these).  All of Tracy's methods of sleep training are for LO who have no other issue going on at the same time, so in this passage Tracy will be referring to a LO who is not teething, who hasn't had any recent medical issues and is not going through a developmental leap.  I haven't looked back at the book but I would also hedge my bets that she is also referring to a LO who has not previously been sleep trained and whose parents are looking to sleep train for the fist time (or have used other unsuccessful methods).

My heart goes out to you.  I only have one LO and I know when he has a rough patch is it such hard work.  I can only imagine the strain having a NB to care for at the same time.
If you have anyone who can come and support you during the day so you can catch a nap for yourself do ask them.  Friends and family often want to help but don't know how.
Many hugs.  There is lots of support here for you.
 :-*


Offline Agnes00

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Hi Creations!

Its been a while and I thought I would just look back to see if there was another posting... and there was so thank you again!

The spica cast was a full body cast literally from below her armpits all the way down one leg so yes I do believe that the removal of the cast has given my LO some more freedom at night and when she wakes she doesn't feel that security from her cast. 

Things have not gotten better... We've been trying gradual withdraw when we put the LO down and during NW's ... she continues to call out for us twice a night (at least its an improvement from every hour!!) But it's very taxing on myself and DH... GW doesn't seem to work unless I am not doing it right but my LO will not let me gradually move away... I have to be holding her hand or have my hand on her back... the second I move it away she screams.   It seems that she usually NW at the same time every night... between 11-1130pm and 1-130am... For a while when she would night wake it was very quick to get her to settle again and doze off to sleep but the last three nights we've been doing PU/PD for about 10mins before she settles and goes off to sleep.  She is definitely teething (we've given Tylenol which doesn't seem to work) I think also a little bit of SA, language development, recovery from surgery... the list goes on! I just wonder if there is light at the end of the tunnel... will she ever sleep through the night?  I don't know what else to do but whatever I'm doing now is not working (or it doesn't seem to be working)  Some nights my DD will NW and I will be settling her for 30 or mins and then get back to my bedroom thinking I can go to sleep when my NB wakes for a feeding ... thats done and then DD NW again! there have been some difficult nights lol!

It still takes me a while to settle my DD at night for bed around 20-30mins but all I'm doing is putting her in her crib.. letting her know we are here for her and I give her lamb to her and the second I put her in her crib she starts to scream... so I do PU/PD ... reassure her everything is ok and continue this until she finally settles... she seems very restless at night... With the NW we do the same... She wont even let me gradually withdrawal.

Any suggestions on other strategies? 

I appreciate all the support! HUGS!!!

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will she ever sleep through the night?
Of course!  When she's a teenager you won't be able to drag her out of bed ;)

So many hugs though, you've really had a rough patch here and the whole household must be in need of more sleep.

Lets see...
1. Teething - if you suspect teething, if there are any day signs, drooling, chewing, red cheeks, grouchiness etc I would medicate before nap and BT for a few days and see if it helps.  Tylenol is paracetamol, which many find doesn't touch bad teething pain.  Try ibuprofen, sometimes recommended to be take with or after food although not always stated on the bottle and isn't 100% necessary, if there is a BT milk feed or a supper before the BT routine give it then.  It's anti inflammatory so does help with teething and sore gums much better than paracetamol.  Will she let you rub a teething gel on her gums?  This doesn't last long but can help with the initial getting to sleep.
At the absolute worst teething days you can max dose giving ibuprofen AND paracetamol either at intervals or together, the active agent is different so it's fine.  I tend to give ibuprofen at BT and save a paracetamol dose for middle of the night if needed.

2. The cast.  Is she having any physio to help with her regain movement and muscle tone?  If not could you ask your paed about it?  It would be good to rule out (or get treatment for) discomfort related to that aspect.
Not a BW thing but did you ever consider osteopathy?  Where I live there are osteopaths trained to treat infants and toddlers, I took my own LO to one for several sessions, it is very gentle manipulation (looks like nothing but you can see LO reacts a little) and they can check over the entire body.  Many people find it helps their LO with a whole range of things, including pain and sleep.

3. Could you post your EASY please?  The disturbed sleep may not be routine related but worth a check hey?  If you give morning WU, nap time (and a brief note to show what time nap should have been and when sleep actually came) and length and BT (again with a note of BT and S time if different).
Also, are her days generally the same each day, like the same level of stimulation, outings at roughly the same time and things like that or are they very changeable?  Any times you notice a difference in her sleep for naps or nights related to what's happened in the day?

4.  Well done on reducing those NWs!  Wow!  You are down to 2 per night and that really is improvement.  If they are at very similar times each night they could be habitual.  Have you tried any W2S?  I think I would try a W2S on the first one, see if you get results before trying for the second one.  Do you have a feed (maybe DF) for the NB around 10pm  ish?  If so this would be a reasonable time to try a W2S.  Either before or after NB feed go in to DD and give her a slight touch, tuck her in, or stroke her cheek, or give her back a rub, you are looking for enough to disturb her sleep and kick start a new sleep cycle without actually waking her up.  She may moan, roll over, shift in her sleep position, bat her face, rummage around looking for lamb or something like that which will indicate a transition.  There's a sticky in the FAQs if you need it (shout if you can't find it).  The basic idea is to do this for 3 nights, same time, then on the 4th night don't W2S and see if she sleeps through.  if not resettle and usual and on night 5 begin again with W2S at the same time for 3 nights, then stop and see if she sleeps though night 8 and so on.  It can take several rounds for the habit of sleeping through to be formed so don't give up too quickly.  I'll add it doesn't work for every single LO but it is a method worth trying.
Like I said don't rush into fixing that second NW yet, just go for one at a time.  Resettle the second one as normal (if you get it...note the time if it is different as her sleep times and transitions will be changed by the W2S).

5. PDs at nap and BT and the GW.
- is the lamb a well established lovey that she gains comfort from?  Do you see her using it as a lovey and gaining comfort?  Does she use it at other times of the day for comfort (when teething or has a fall for example)?  Can she find the lamb in the night and when you to go her at NW is she using the lamb?
- do you have a key phrase that you use at wind down for naps and night?  Are you using it regularly and repeating it to reinforce its 'strength'?
- do you sense that she is afraid of her bedroom or crib at all?  Do you spend time in there during the day?  is she ok with that?  What happens if you put her in her crib during A time whilst you for example put some laundry away in the same room?
- at the NW does she immediately shout for you? Cry/scream?  or does she mantra and chat to herself? What is she like when you get to her?  how does she react?
- GW.  I may have this wrong but reading your post it seems to me that you are trying to gradually withdraw all in one go ie reducing the hold, and touch and stepping gradually away.  This isn't really the idea of GW.  Rather it is about making small changes over a longer period of time and each time LO is learning to settle with the new way you take it on a step further.
There's a FAQ on the Gentle Removal Plan here
HELP YOUR BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HER OWN
Which you can scroll down and see example of getting baby back to sleep in their own cot.  It's just an example, you adapt as your situation needs.  At each step you don't let her get fully hooked into the new habit, but almost, so that she is calm, relaxed and falling to sleep, then before it becomes a hard core prop you take the next step.
In your case the steps might go something like this:
1. I would stop for a short time on the hand on back where she is happy and going to fall to sleep, use your key phrase during this time.  Let her fall to sleep for a couple of days like that.
2. next step, do the same thing until she is relaxed or almost to sleep and ever so gently lighten the pressure on her back.  She will complain, you use your key phrase and even increase the pressure for a moment (going back one step) to reassure her you are there and and responding to her need, but then release the pressure again, with key phrase.  Continue until she stops moaning, only increase the pressure if absolutely needed and only for as short a time as possible, then lighten again. Let her fall to sleep with your lighter pressure hand on her back.  Continue for a night or two.
3. As before but after holding on light pressure you reduce pressure again, a hand barely on her. Plus key phrase.  take a step back to firmer touch, very briefly, if needed then back to barely on her.
4. A finger plus key phrase.
5. Hover your hand just off her plus key phrase.  With this it may seem pointless because you are not touching her but she knows you are there, it also means you can briefly take a step back to light touch (or even a rapid, firm, lighter, barely, none, if needed) without a big movement of getting yourself to the crib and your arm over the side.  you are already in position.
6. Remove arm and stand up, plus key phrase.
7. after PD quickly move through the previous steps (firm touch, almost a cuddle in bed, lighter touch, key phrase, remove arm, stand up) walk to door.  Stand there and repeat key phrase.
8. as 7 but leave room.  Wait outside room, verbally reassure with key phrase from outside.  Return if needed (WI/WO), and as always take a step or two back to light touch or a quick rub, then lighter, step away etc if she needs it.

These steps are not set in stone, I just give this as an example.  You want to avoid PU if you can, I would try to limit to one PU at a visit, at this age the recommendation is not to PU but just PD (if she stands lay her down) but I know my DS would blow a gasket if I did that, he doesn't ask for a hug unless he needs one and if he needs on he gets one, yk?  I PU very briefly, if I hold him too long he turns from crying for attention into frustrated that I am bothering him when he wants to be in his bed asleep.  When you continue to PU to sooth it is harder to move on to the next step, you really need to get comforting in the cot.

Now I realise this looks long winded and I realise you are exhausted.  I suppose all I can do is send hugs and suggest that the time put in with it will pay off.  Initially the NW may take longer for you to settle her so you need to prepare yourself for that chance, but after a week or couple of weeks she should be self soothing happily safe in the knowledge that you will return if she needs you.

I still believe that an independent sleeper will take little to return to independence once their other issues are cleared up.  Something surely is bothering her.  Meanwhile creating a secure BT routine where you are not stuck for 30 mins with a crying toddler should help everyone feel a bit calmer and more relaxed.

Hmm...I think I covered everything. Do ask if you need clarification.  And let us know how things are going.
 :-*

PS sorry about asking so many questions, just trying to get a bigger picture so we can help as much as possible
 :-*