sleep is still not established

[mehibbitts]

Hi I am needing help with my 5 m old’s sleep.   He has reflux, but it is undercontrol with meds.  He is on a 4 hr. easy eating routine, but his naps have never been predictable.  We had him sleeping for the night @ about 3.5 months then he got an ear infection that broke his routine.  We did some acc. Parenting to get him to sleep b/c he was in pain.  Now we are having a hard time braking the habits.  He doesn’t wake at the same times each night (2-3 x’s a night) so we can’t use wake to sleep (my favorite used on 1st born).  I don’t believe he is hungry either.  When I use PU/PD, he just continues to cry even when I PU.  Shush pat is what we are using at the moment, but I feel he is addicted to Mom or Dad putting him back to sleep each time.  It doesn’t seem like he is progressing into sleeping on his own.  Also for his nap he always wakes up after 45 min. then I shush pat for 10-30 min. and we usually get another 45 min.

[katie80]

Hi and welcome to BW!

I'm glad to see you're using shh/pat. PUPD can serve to aggravate reflux, so is not recommended for reflux babies, even if it's under control. If you feel like he hasn't progressed from shh/pat, it's usually just a matter of gradually reducing your help. So, stop patting and just hold a hand on him once he goes quiet. Then, start to remove your hand a bit earlier and earlier, always going back to shh/pat if needed, but removing again before he's all the way asleep. Here's a link on this same thing: Why are Shush Pat and PU/PD not props?

What does his EASy look like during the day? It could be that a little tweak would get him sleeping through those naps without having to resettle each one. Or, you could try w2s to extend those...

Have you tried feeding in the night at some point to see if it makes a difference?

[mehibbitts]

Thanks for replying.  Last night he sttn not sure why, but I'll take it.  We changed him from a pack-n-play to a crib.  We figured he wasn't sleeping through anyway.  But to our amazement he slept.  It could also be that he drank more yesterday than normal.  Maybe a growth spurt??? His easy varys, but here is a typical day.
6:30-7 wake up BF
7:30 solids
8:45-9:00 down for nap( usually up 45 min. later.  Use shush pat 10-30 min and another 45-60 min.)
11 bottle 4-6 oz
12 solids
By 12:15 he is getting tired so down in bed@
12:30 45 min. Wake sush pat sometimes another 45 but not always. Then it gets crazy. I  put him to sleep when he gets tired for the naps. Usually 2 more 45 naps, but not always.
3 wish bottle 4-6oz
6ish bottle then solids (I give a bottle only if the last feed was 4oz or less.)
6:30 bath
7:00 BF bed

[mehibbitts]

His activity times are always 2hrs or less depending on the length of his last nap.

[katie80]

Last night he sttn not sure why, but I'll take it.

For sure!

His activity times are always 2hrs or less depending on the length of his last nap.

I would say these might need a bit of a bump.  45min is usually a UT waking, which is why you likely can't always get him back to sleep in the afternoon.  Is he closer to 5mo or 6?  Avg A for a 5mo old is 2-2.25hr with lots of 6mo olds at about 2.5hr.

Has he been on solids for very long?  What types of things is he eating?  3 meals a day is A LOT for a 5mo old, and refluxers can sometimes struggle more with solids than other babies.  That could be playing a factor in the NWs.  If you'd like to keep 3 meals, I would at least move the dinner one to 4pm to give his tummy more time to digest before BT.  This will also likely make the BT BF better, so he's more full in the night.  And, it's not unreasonable for a 5mo old to still have a NF, esp if he doesn't have a DF, so don't completely rule out hunger either. 

HTH!

[mehibbitts]

He always has a DF.  I can't keep him up more than 2 he's without him crying tired.  He will be harder to go down.  He just started with a 3rd meal.

[mehibbitts]

He has been NW before I intro solids.  He eats 3 very small meals about 1oz each feed.

[katie80]

I can't keep him up more than 2 he's without him crying tired.  He will be harder to go down.

He may not be ready, then.  You can try to extend the naps with w2s.  Typically, for a 45min nap, you'd go in around 32-33min and rustle him a bit.  I'm assuming you know how, since you've used it before, but just in case you want a refresher, here's a link: How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)  45min naps can be developmental at this age, until about 6-7mo, but I'd try adding even 5min of A time every few days if you still can't get them to extend, because if you can get good solid naps, I think that will help your night.  The choppy afternoon with several CN might be attributing to the NWs.

As for the solids, that sounds fine, although I still don't know if he needs the 3rd meal.  I'd just make sure it's not too close to BT if you decide to keep it.

Keep us posted...

[mehibbitts]

For an update: My 5 month old (He will turn 6 month on the 4 of March) is doing better at night.  1-2 wakes just for pasi.  We'll work on that prop after naps are routines.  HE is still waking 30-45 min. after being put down for his nap.  He is not under tired when put down. Shush pat has stopped working.  Looking for more advice.  W2S  is a hit and miss.  The last 2 days he was not able to return to sleep with sush-pat.

[katie80]

Shush pat has stopped working.  Looking for more advice.  W2S  is a hit and miss.  The last 2 days he was not able to return to sleep with sush-pat.

Honestly, these are classic signs of UT.  He was having longer naps and now they've shortened; you can't get him to extend with w2s or shh/pat.  He's tired enough to fall asleep, but not to sleep more than one sleep cycle.

His activity times are always 2hrs or less depending on the length of his last nap.

This is more appropriate for a 4-5mo old, rather than an almost 6mo old.  Here's a good link with average A times: Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?"

He may well be showing tired signs at 2hr, but those could be out of habit or boredom.  The other info you've given me says he's UT.  I know it's not fun to deal with a fussy baby, but I'd really start pushing him by at least 5-10min every few days.  It can take them up to a week to get used to a new A time.  I was the same way and never wanted my baby to get OT, but at some point you realize that what you're currently getting isn't much better, so it's worth a try to push it out.

[mehibbitts]

Very often he wakes after 30lmin. of nap.  Also he wakes after BT.  Sometimes 2-3 x's until DF which he wakes up for sometimes.  Here is our easy today (not typical)February 28th Thursday

6 breastfeed 630 a.m. + 4 oz bottle
7:30 solids
7:50 down for a nap
8:20 W 2 s
8:37 awake shush pat did not work because would not settle seems wired ( frailing arms and legs) but not crying
8:57 stop trying shush pat out of the room
10:25 6 ounce bottle
10:50 overtired had to rock to calm down until eyes we're close ( normally goes down on own)
11:25 awake rewrapped shush pat
11:38 asleep
1:45 awake--b/t the (18 min shy of a 3 hr. nap)
2:00 6 oz bottle
5:35 down for a nap hard time settling
6:07 awake
6:15 solids (late b/c late cat nap) 6 oz bottle
6:45 bath
7:15 BT  asleep by 7:30 awake @ 8:15 and again @ 9:15

[mehibbitts]

To make a correction
He woke at 6:00(which is on the early side for him) then BF @ 6:30 +4 oz bottle

1:45 awake-(18 min shy of a 3 hr. nap) 13 min. of shush pat

[katie80]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but he's UT first thing in the morning and that's why you can't extend.  He was up less than 2hr and took a 47min nap, that was unextendable (classic UT).  Then, he was up for over 2hr and ended up taking a 2.5hr nap in total.  Sure, you needed to help him get to sleep and resettle him, that was a long time to be up after a short nap and he was OT, but after you resettled he slept 2hr, so he wasn't so OT that he couldn't keep sleeping.  This tells me that he resettles and sleeps when he's tired enough to do so.

Start pushing the A times.  You may need to help him to sleep a bit and resettle him when he wakes for a few days, but his body will adjust to staying awake later. 

[Erin M]

Start pushing the A times.  You may need to help him to sleep a bit and resettle him when he wakes for a few days, but his body will adjust to staying awake later. 

Hey sweetie, just wanted to second this ^^^^^^^

It's hard to make that jump sometimes to extending A times since we all worry about out LOs getting overtired, but it makes such a difference.

[mehibbitts]

Just for an update...we are sttn DS had an ear infection ( 3rd or 4th one since he's born).  I should have know there was something.  He always start waking when he has an infection.  his naps are still a hit and miss.  Like yesterday he did 2 good naps 1.5-2hr, but today first nap only 35 min???