Totally stressed about 8 mo old long night waking/habit

[Cindymenjivar]

Hello.

I am coming back with the same problem of long night wakings. I can't seem to find a way to solve this inspite of following advice from this forum and baby whisperer books.

My son is now 8 months old and has been having night wakings since 6 months old. I have been working on adjusting his EASY routine and extending his A times as long night wakings are generally related to being UT. His A times are generally 3 - 3.5 hours long (any longer than that and he gets OT and has frequent, early NW). He naps very well. Goes down independently - first nap usually 2 hours and second nap 1 hour. He eats solids very well (ie. 5 - 7 oz per feed) and is breast fed. I still give him a dream feed at night. I've tried adjusting his waking times from 8 am to 7 am and now 6 am. His bedtime is 12.5 or 13 hours after morning wake.

For example:

6:00 wake up.
9:30 nap
11:30 wake up
3:00 nap
4:00 wake up
7:00 bedtime

He continues to have night wakings for 2 hours almost every night ( but occasionally surprises me by sleep for 11 hours) inspite of adjustments to his routine.

Please help me understand how I should deal with these wakings during the night. How should I respond to my LO? He cries until I come into the room, then he quiets down when I give him sleepy words. But he begins to chatter and play. So I leave the room and he begins to cry again. Sometimes he continues to play but eventually he cries and the whole pattern repeats until about 2 hours has gone by and he is tired. By then I have to hold his arm until he drops into a deep sleep. I do this every night. I don't respond to his cries right away, but wait until he is truly crying - not just fussing or chatting, but I feel now that he understands how to get me to come. His wakings are always at completely different times (any time and every time), but it is a strong habit now because he has been doing this for 2 months. My mom really feels that I should let him CIO, but I need to know if there is a better way. Adjusting daytime routine is not solving this, please tell me how I can help my son at night. I am stressed out and very, very discouraged. Ps. I also give a night feeding before BT. He becomes very sleepy, although wakes for an instant before going down. I believe he is aware that he is going to bed, but I wonder if changing the timing of his bedtime feed (ie before bath?) would help him learn to sleep more independently at night?

Thank you

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))), that must be so draining for you.  You are completely right that there are better ways of solving this than using CIO which we don't support at all.  We'd love to help you get him sleeping better using gentler methods

I agree that his daytime routine looks really good and he shouldn't be especially OT or UT.  It is GREAT that he goes down independently for naps, so if you do decide to change up his bedtime routine a little it shouldn't take long for him to learn to settle.  If you don't want to make such a drastic change you could just start adding in a story after his feed?

My first thought would be to try dropping the dream feed.  If he is well established on solids and having four BFs during the day he may well be capable of managing the night without a feed.  For some LOs the DF can really start to disturb their sleep, and dropping it can actually make things better.  I'd give it a go - just miss it out tonight and see what happens? 

The other thing that causes long night wakings for many is discomfort.  Is he teething?  Have you tried giving meds as soon as he wakes and seeing if he settles any quicker?

I would handle the NWs as you have been doing - wait until he cries an 'I need you now' cry and then go to him.  Is he pulling to stand yet?  If yes, lie him down, say your sleep phrase and step back, out of the room if you can.  If no, pick up briefly if you feel you need to, then say your sleep phrase and try to calm in the cot, then step back.  Repeat repeat repeat.  If you leaving the room prolongs the wakings at the moment, I would try doing what I've suggested but get a stool that you can sit on next to his cot once you have calmed him.  I would (if you can) try to remove physical contact once he is calm so that he falls asleep on his own.  Over a period of days, move your stool closer and closer to the door, so that you calm him then return to the same place and keep reassuring with your voice, until eventually you have moved to outside the doorway. 

What do you think?

[Cindymenjivar]

Ok. Thank you so much for the encouragement. I love your idea of reading a story right after the BT breast feed. I read some stories before each nap, so this will be familiar to him.

I Have tried baby Motrin several times. I am nervous about giving it repeatedly since his teething seems to be sort of intermittent and prolonged with no sign of teeth yet. Only sign is occasionally bright red cheeks, but no fussing or swollen gums. I don't think he settled quicker with meds, but I will try again.

Yes, I have been working toward dropping the DF. He is taking less and less as I have been moving it closer to BT and giving bigger suppers. I will try to skip it tonight.

He is not yet pulling up or crawling. He is trying to roll a bit and sometimes go up onto hands and knees (usually tries this at night  when he seems his most adventurous self!) I am very nervous that milestones and mental leaps will make this NW problem much worse!

I will definitely try using a stool and backing away over a few nights.

Thank you so much for your advice. I love my little guy so much and want to use the best, gentlest way to get him past this night problem.

[jessmum46]

Keep me updated - will be here to hold your hand through it

For teeth I've always found ibuprofen (Advil) better - might be worth a go to see if it helps, then stop if it makes no difference?

[Cindymenjivar]

I tried everything you suggested and last night was much better! I skipped the dream feed, which would have been at 9:00pm. And the most brilliant part of the plan - I read a story after his bedtime breast feeding. When I put him down in his crib he was quite awake. I watched on the monitor as he chatted to himself for 5 minutes and then closed his eyes and fell asleep just like at nap times. I believe this really reinforced to him (and me!) that he can go to sleep on his own. I am so glad I didn't have to switch the breast feed to before his bath because he is so programmed to want BF after bath and is always eager and impatient for it. Thank you so much for suggesting story time!

The little guy woke at 11:00. I let him fuss until he was really crying for me. I gave Advil drops right away, then turned him on his side and told him "it's time to sleep" and left the room. He cried really hard when I left so I went right back in and repeated all this and stepped outside again. I was prepared to stay inside the room this time with a stool if he cried again, but he was quiet! Actually he was totally quiet except for a few little noises and minimal chatter. I waited outside his room for about an hour always prepared for him to cry out again, but he didn't. He eventually was so quiet and fell asleep all on his own.

He cried again at 3:30am. I was just preparing to go into the room when he went quiet. He had fallen back to sleep on his own.

I also added a night light to his room - maybe this helped him feel a little more comfortable?

This was only the first night trying these things, but I will certainly carry on and keep you posted! Thank you baby whisperers!

[jessmum46]

Wonderful news!  I hope he keeps it up

[Cindymenjivar]

The last few nights have been different.

Saturday is often a crazy day that throws of my little guy's (Ben's) schedule. We are away all day at church events and he will often just catch multiple cat naps. He had three 30 min naps this Saturday and then slept all night. It is strange that he will sleep all night on Saturdays?? But on Sunday he tends to get overtired really fast.

On Sunday he had shorter A times and went to bed 15 min earlier. Also, on Sunday evening as I was feeding solids supper he was really scratching his ears and cheeks a lot and was really fussy. One cheek is bright pink. I gave him Advil at 6pm and again when he had his night waking at 1:30am. I went in and out of his room 5 or 6 times to resettle (he turned onto his tummy twice). He was awake for 90 min, mostly quiet, and then fell asleep on his own - I was not in the room.

Monday had a more regular routine. He seemed a little more irritable and was scratching his ears a little bit. Took a little longer to settle at naps, but slept very well. BT went really well with story time and no dream feed. He woke at 1:15am. He was super lively - laughing and giggling at first, but then crying really hard. I didn't give Advil right away as I have the previous 3 nights. I did give it about 30 min into waking. I was in and out of his room a lot and so tired that I fell off the stool (sitting just outside his door). Hubby finally took over and got Ben to sleep fairly quickly (first time!) in the crib. This waking was 1hr 45min.

I think Advil at night time seems to make a difference (much calmer and falls asleep sooner).

Scratching at the ears could be teething?? Do you think? He does this a little when he's tired also, but this was a lot more than usual. I don't think allergies (no new food this week) or ear infection (no temp or discharge). I will keep an eye on this.

Any new insights? I will keep at this!

[jessmum46]

It is strange that he will sleep all night on Saturdays??

Not really - my LO does this too.  Terrible nap day = crashes and sleeps all night!  You can tell it's not fully restorative by how tired they are the next day though as you mentioned.

Great job on the independent falling asleep on Sunday night - he can do it!  (And so can you!)

When you say he slept well on Monday, what was his EASY for the day?  Could the NW have been UT?

Scratching at the ears could definitely be teething so if the Advil helps I would continue it for a few days and then try without again

[Cindymenjivar]

Monday was:

6:15 (I think... Playing in crib)
6:40 BF
9:45 nap (2 hr)
11:50 awake
3:40 nap (1 hr + 5 min)
4:45 awake
7:30 in bed
NW 1:15 - 2:45

Tuesday:

6:00 (I think...)
6:40 BF
9:50 nap (1hr + 35 min)
11:30 awake
2:45 nap (1 hr + 15 min)
4:00 wake
7:30 in bed
* Slept all night!!!!
5:45 awake (played in bed for 45 min)

Wednesday:

5:45 awake
6:30 BF
9:40 nap (only 35 min than playing happily in crib!!!)
10:15 awake
1:30 nap (2 hr + 15 min)
3:45 I wake Ben
7:20 in bed
NW 1:15 - 2:45 (playing quietly for over 1 hour, than cried and took 30 min to settle)
NW 3:25 - 3:45 (crying -was on his tummy. I gave teething formula & changed diaper - pee only)
7:10 I woke Ben

I have stopped trying to manipulate his schedule so much ie. extend awake times or shorten naps, because I have dealt with OT so much and it's The Worst. Instead I try to go by his signs of tired vs. happy. I don't generally allow more than 3 hrs of naps (just a little less seems better) and A times >3 hrs at least. His days are often 13.5 hours now. (Do you think all of this is ok?) He "shouldn't" be UT as far as I can see. He is settling himself to sleep independently every time now even at night and is crying less - which is so awesome! I just can't seem to get rid of long night wakings.

My LO is 23.6 lbs which is big at 8 months and 2 weeks and I wonder if size has anything to do with how much sleep is needed. I wonder if he will transition to one nap sooner and then maybe the long NW will disappear?

What else should I try? Or should I just wait doing the same thing I have been doing?

Thank you so much. You are awesome BW!

[jessmum46]

I don't think size generally has a lot to do with sleep needs - my DD is pretty slim and light, but has always needed high A times. 

I agree I wouldn't think UT from your routines.  I'd actually think OT - his days are very long at 13.5h and nights are short, often less than 10.5h.  I would try pulling the day back closer to 13h, possibly even shorter if you can and see if that helps

[Cindymenjivar]

Hi. I just wanted to post an update. I think you are right that 13.5 hours is too long a day just yet. I have gone back to 12.5 - 13 hours.

The thing is that my LO wakes when he is UT and when he is OT and also when he has had a string of technically perfect days. I have been driving myself nuts and stressing out trying to get it perfect. My little guy does seem very sensitive to small changes in his routine (often even a half hour deviation), but all my recordings, adjustments, scrupulous attention, and obsessing about naps, A time and BT haven't magically eliminated his NW. There have been improvements. For example, overall my son cries much less when he wakes now - sometimes not at all. I often only have to visit him to resettle once or twice many nights and he will eventually drift off on his own. And after an ideal-routine day he will often wake later in the night like 4:30am and fall back to sleep after 30-60 minutes. Other days when there are small or big interruptions he will wake several times (OT) sometimes as early as 10:30pm and sometimes as long as 3.5 hours (UT). I have actually put him in his jolly jumper in the middle a time or two because he is so energetic. Sometimes I know it is my fault that he is either OT or UT because I have really deviated from the routine.  My saving graces are that he is a good napper and he is such a happy baby. Now he is learning to nap in the playpen when we go out, too.

I have friends whose babies sleep through the night with little effort. Their kid can nap too long, skip a nap or go to bed an hour and a half late with no problem. I have tried so hard - even staying home for 2 weeks straight (except to get groceries) trying to establish a routine that is appropriate for my guy. Also I try to create a perfect sleep environment for him. He has a blankly that I wrap him in with one arm out. He has rain drops/white noise maker, a night light, a humidifier... I think my little Ben is just a night waker. Maybe he thinks of the night as 2 long naps with a bit of A time in the middle.

I still love BW style parenting because I can't stand CIO and I love that I have been able to teach my LO to fall asleep independently at naps and bedtime. Thank you for all your (((hugs))), encouragement and advice. I could still use more! Do you think my little guy will outgrow NW - I mean before he is a teenager? Can you think of anything else to suggest? Again, I appreciate your time so much!

[jessmum46]

Hi Cindy, good to hear your update.  Just wanted to encourage you with a massive WELL DONE - you have made so much progress and you should be so proud of that

I know it's really hard when everyone around you seems to have perfect babies who sleep whenever they want them to, and I can totally relate to obsessing and stressing about sleep.  Honestly, things are never as rosy as people would have you believe - those Mums who have 'perfect' sleepers actually may have LOs that crash for 10h at night through exhaustion and nap for 30 mins once or twice a day which to me is nowhere near enough sleep.  There seems to be a huge need for 'competitive mummying' which I personally can't stand.  Some babies ARE more difficult than others, and STTN is a developmental milestone like any other which different babies will reach at different times.  It's important to keep focussed on this:

he is such a happy baby

Because ultimately that's what matters. 

How is your routine going?  Did you want me to look to see if I can suggest any adjustments?

[Cindymenjivar]

Thanks Katherine. 

I am not expecting any miracles with tweaking the routine, but am shooting for better and even best scenario possible. We had a crazy weekend (Fri & Sat) with the time change, some very weird naps (including one day when I let him nap for almost 3 hours -BAD IDEA!) and outings. On Tuesday we were back on track.

8:00am wake up (3hr + 15min A)
11:15 nap for 2 hr
1:15 wake up (3hr + 5min A)
4:20 nap for 1 hr
5:20 wake up (3hr + 15min A)
8:35 in bed

NW 1:30 - 2:45am

Cry #1 @1:30 I gave Advil, said sleepy words, kiss, shut the door
Cry #2 @2:00 I changed diaper - poop, re-wrap with blanket, say sleepy words...
Cry #3 @2:40 I re-wrap, add one more blanket - cold, say sleepy words...
2:45 asleep (I can see/hear on monitor)

He was UT at night. Very playful and chatting lots to himself. I was trying for longer A times during the day, but put him down earlier because he looked so, so tired. I am nervously trying to avoid OT also. During his last A time before bed he was so energetic and I think he would have easily made it to 9:00, but I was nervous about OT and 9:00 seems so late.

Today he had a wonderfully happy morning, but again, he is desperately tired after only 3 hours A time. He usually makes it to 3.5 hr A time with no problem... I will try to extend his second and third A today to 3.5 hrs wherever/however I can. Avoid UT without pushing too hard to OT.  what do you think?

[jessmum46]

I think that sounds like a good plan.  For us, wakings at that hour are usually discomfort or UT (J likes to treat us to a concert of singing sometimes....) though that said, we get the occasional chatty delirious OT waking.  Could his hyper energetic evening have been OS or an OT second wind do you think?

[Cindymenjivar]

Around 1:00 - 1:30am is Ben's favorite time to wake. Wish I could do wake to sleep, but I'm afraid he would just be awake longer. Also, he doesn't always follow this pattern. I thought about waking him at 12:00am to give Advil? I could try it.

Yesterday went almost as I had planned except Ben only slept for 45 min at his second nap. Seemed a little OT since I stretched his second A time.

His night wakings were very similar (maybe a bit less energetic) to the previous night, but I did not give Advil (some herbal teething liquid instead) this time. Also, instead of dropping off after at an hour and a half, he escalated with lots of very tired sounding cries and wouldn't settle at all. I tried BF, which he ate hungrily, but still no sleep. Finally after 3 hours he fell asleep in my bed.

I am afraid of giving too much Advil especially since teeth are no where near the surface, but it does seem to always shorten his NW (if you can call 1 and a half hours short). Would you persist with giving Advil and for how long?

Also as a side note: for the last week and a half Ben is suddenly not interested in eating solids. He eats very little - even the stuff he loves! And he gets really agitated in his highchair - pulling his hair and rubbing his face. He even got food in his eye and screamed. Very traumatic. I offer solids several times during A to get him to take a bit more.

What do you think about continuing Advil and trying wake to sleep at midnight?