20 month old sleep questions

[Mummy23boys]

Hello there,

My 20 month old DS usually naps from 1pm to 3pm. Recently he has bagan to fight nap time and can take up to half hour to fall asleep. Then I might leave him sleep on until 3.15 or so to make up for it. But often we have to be somewhere so I have to wake him at 3pm. His BT is normally 8pm, he will go down fine for this but again will talk/shout for up to half hour before he falls asleep. So now his WU is getting earlier and earlier again!!    I've worked so hard to get him where he was! And it was really tough going. Why has this changed all over again? I thought we were over the worst! I have a four month old also so I'm trying to sleep train him at the moment too.

Should I put him down for nap times later? 1.30pm?  Should I leave him sleep? Later BT perhaps?

I know a lot may be going on developmentally and there is possibly a regression around now. What would you suggest? Should I just ride it out?

Many thanks ladies xxx

[Zami]

Hi Melissa, 20 months seems to be a magic number!

You are right that there is lots going on developmentally!!!! Odessa kept giving it to me in waves for nearly 3months. Good week, bad week, good week, 2 bad weeks 

What is his total sleep and when does he wake up for the day? I think stretching him out at both nap and bt would be worth trying. I tried to tweak odessa during this period. Sometimes it worked and paid off, so I'd repeat what I did the following day and she'd prove me wrong. So it was like a stab in the dark most of the time. And typically for us during a regression, it didn't matter how much i tweaked the schedule, she would still take the same amount of time to fall asleep. So it was very confusing me.

Having said that I stuck as much to my "schedule" as I could and slept as much as I could (I know this would be hard for you with a newborn too!!! (((((Hugs))))) and took the EWs on the chin for as long as I could.

Then for no reason, she started to sleep more predictably again, although the schedule was all wrong and we still got EWs. That's when I started to shift her. Also I noticed for odessa that after each growth spurt a schedule change was required... Why didn't I work this out earlier?!   I found this regression to be so much longer, so I began to start worry about the schedule, but in hindsight she was just growing and there wasn't much I could do apart from being consistent.

I think if he's taking 30mins to fall asleep, set nap for 1315ish and push out bt by 15 mins also. Is he still giving some cues? If he looks good, you could go to 1330. If he still takes 30mins to settle, then it maybe something else.

I'm no expert, I've just done all this in the last week and still shifting. But, I know for a fact that my daughter is not growth spurting at the moment and for us that is a big part of this process actually working.

[Mummy23boys]

Hi Zami,

I saw your post and was going to tag along, I probably should have! Hugs to you...I know it can be very tough!

He used to wake up about 7.30/7.45am. It was FANTASTIC! Now it's more like 6am onwards... so when he wakes I have to get him up straight away otherwise he will wake DS2!

I'll try his nap at 1.15pm today and see how it goes, I did that too yesterday. But should I leave him sleep or wake him at 3pm as usual? I dunno And like you said maybe do BT at 8.15 and see how it goes. I really don't want to go any later than that though.

Odessa is a beautiful name btw   I suppose these things take time to sort themselves out and your right of course consistency is key. I hope things keep progressing for you? I will keep an eye on your post too. 

[Zami]

Thank you. i still can't remember exactly how we chose her name. After we named her we found all sorts of random info on it. 

As for James, it could be he is needing more awake time before nap hence waking earlier....? so perhaps the later nap might help him wake later in the morning, all else held constant.

Is he acting tired or needing the missed sleep? If he seems fine, I would hazard to guess that he is just dropping some of his sleep, most likely for the language milestone and approaching 2 yrs. Looking at your old EASY he was getting about 13.5hrs give or take, so that is good sleep. O would always temporarily give up about 1.5-2hrs of sleep during a growth spurt, but she is sensitive!

I think, if he seems fine with the sleep he is getting, I would only push out the nap and cap it at 1500 to keep all else constant, such as bt. That way you can see what is actually working. If he is starts to look more tired than usual at bt, then you may want to consider uncap.

Is he falling asleep easier with the later nap? Does he mind being woken from his nap?

He may, due to the extra tiredness of capped nap, add the missing nap into his night sleep? Would he likely do this? I'd be cautious of the extra tiredness as even just 10mins too long in our house has been known to tip odessa over in to OT land 

I think what your redistribution goal might look like is to keep night sleep length the same by cutting nap short. But this will all depend on how well he handles the reduced nap.

[creations]

But this will all depend on how well he handles the reduced nap.

I agree with this.
Just something to mull over whilst you try to figure out what works for your LO. I was capping DS's nap and he just spent every afternoon grumpy.  When I stopped capping his nap increased to 2hrs then to 2.5hrs (yeah it's scary when you see it get that late) but BT set at 8pm.  His nap has been at 2pm for several months now (since about 22 months, we moved up from 1pm to 1.30 then 2pm surprisingly quickly) and I know he's fine to sleep until 4.30pm and still make BT. (we have a 10hr night because for us his mood is better with a longer nap and shorter night rather than capping the nap).

He used to wake up about 7.30/7.45am. It was FANTASTIC! Now it's more like 6am onwards.

You could go for a full hour move on his entire routine, including meals and all other routine landmarks that indicate to him what time of day it is - like daylight savings time change.  But then you're looking at 9pm BT which cuts into the Y time.

[Zami]

Hi creations, just wondering what your easy looks like now? It sounds like my kind of schedule 

[creations]

We are now at:
WU 6.00 (officially still night until timer lights come on at 6.30am.  At that time he reads in bed until he needs a wee, usually until about 6.50 - this is all additional resting time although he sings and counts a lot, but it's still lower stimulation than getting up)
set nap 2.00 - 4.00/4.30 (no cap)
set BT 8.00pm

so 2 to 2.5 hr nap and 10 hr night with an option of another 30min on his night if he ever takes it.  Some naps are distrubed with molar teething and wake up at 1hr 20, if I can resetle I do, otherwise still set BT, no change.

We are starting to get dropped naps, here and there so we also have:
WU 6.00am
no nap
EBT 6.00pm

On these nights I turn the timer lights off just in case he needs more than the 12.5 hrs offered.  So far we've had 12 hr nights a couple of times and (sadly) one 10 hr night.  The following day I always offer the set nap again.

And as with any EASY if he is ill then all bets are off, sleep when needed.

[Mummy23boys]

Ok guys here is the update...

COMPLETE NAP REFUSAL the past 2 days!! What is going on! Right now I'm trying to get him to nap even on the couch but no way! My 5 month old is napping upstairs now so I can't bring DS1 up cos he will scream blue nursery and wake DS2! Is it ok for him to skip naps?

Thanks xx

[Mummy23boys]

Meant to type scream blue murder! Lol!

[creations]

I actually really liked blue nursery

It's really really early to be dropping the nap completely but not totally unheard of.  I would guess it is more likely a short phase so I'd keep going through the wind down and trying for a nap every day.  Maybe try 2pm for the nap rather than 1pm.  I know some LOs keep that 1pm (ish) nap right up until they drop the nap, and just have a shorter and shorter nap (capped) but mine needed the longer morning A time to agree to a nap so that's just how it is.

Are you doing EBT with these no nap days?  Many people aim for a 10.5hr day when the nap is refused.  I aim slightly longer, more like 11 to 11.5hr day allowing a 12.5hr night but some LOs will do a 14hr night.

[Mummy23boys]

His grandad took him for a walk and 5 mins in to it he fell asleep! but not for too long. So he was obviously tired!
EBT tonight. We did the same yesterday and he woke at 8.10 this morn. DH is putting him to bed right now and he is freaking out! We were aiming for the 11.5 hour day too. I will keep offering the nap for sure but at 2pm and see will that help. Omg he is hysterical now. Won't even let DH read him a story! He's like a child possessed! Hate seeing him like this...

Thanks so much

[Mummy23boys]

Omg what a morning! And it's still so early! My DS2 woke at 6 and I fed him and DH got up for work. Anyway something or someone woke DS1 and he went mental, shouting and crying. I thought he might go back to sleep but I had to take him up just before 7am!! He must be exhausted! And of course because he woke my baby it means he couldn't go back to sleep after his feed so he only got 10 hours sleep now too! Ugh! So I will prob have 2 OT kids today and I am dreading nap time for DS1! Do I go for 1pm 1.15/1.30? Or stick with 2pm? So confused now!


Thanks x

[creations]

If you think he'll go down try him at 1.00/1.15 but if there is clear resistance I would just say 'ok, let's play a bit longer' and try again closer to 2pm.  I've done this occasionally with DS, it's saves the hour long battle and everyone getting upset.

[Mummy23boys]

Hi there,

Just an update here and some more advice please

I actually went back to the 1pm nap as I knew he was exhausted as his baby brother was waking him early in the mornings. We have now moved baby in to his own room which is across the hall, so DS1 won't hear him as much. However my problem is he is still waking early now about 6.30am So I suppose I can can't be certain if it was his brother waking him or he was just EW by himself.

So now I'm unsure what to do. Should I still push out his nap later to 1.15/1.30? Shorten his naptime to 1.5 hrs? Maybe give an EBT?

Thanks for all your help on this xx

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs sweetie. I haven't got time to read through and creations will be giving you fantastic advice but re ds2 waking ds1 we use (and I swear by) white noise. Could be worth trying in one or both rooms, or even in the hall xx