20 month old sleep questions

[creations]

Hi there.
Is he still fighting BT at 8pm?  Do you feel it could be an OT fight rather than UT fight?

With the morning creeping earlier I would be tempted first to try a later nap, 1.30pm, for several days or a week because early mornings can be linked to the nap coming too early.  You could still give 2hrs and stick with set BT 8pm.  The thing with early waking is they are then so tired by nap time we are tempted to bring nap earlier to help them but this can just reinforce the early WU.
The other thing though, is if something else is waking him at 6.30?  Reading this thread back makes me realise just how quickly we have gone from our routine being fine even with the occasional dropped nap to being 'blue nursery' (I still like your typo).  Here I am suspecting a train going by at 5am ish which doesn't happen in the winter months but possibly during the spring/summer months, the rail office won't tell me and it isn't a passenger train so not on time table.
If it is something like that Sara's suggestion to use white noise is great if you can all live with that.  I know so many people have success with white noise.  As I am very resistant to it though (because it stops me sleeping!) I am trialling altering our routine to allow for the 5am WU - so shifting nap BT an hour earlier and seeing if that helps.
So - I see I'm giving totally conflicting advice here.  On the one hand saying move nap later to encourage a later morning WU, on the other I'm saying put up with the earlier WU and give earlier BT to compensate.  It depends if you strongly suspect external noise waking him (DS once had a phase of NWs at around 3am it was a neighbour turning a TV on at that time! Grrr!).

Sorry, that isn't really the answer you were looking for!

[Mummy23boys]

He kinda fights BT. He is fine until he gets in to bed, then we can hear him reading or banging his legs on the cot for about 15 maybe even 20 mins! But he's not crying or anything. For nap times now we have worked on his wind down so he isn't in hysterics, we have added a story while he is in the cot and he likes that, it calms him. I really don't know anymore if it's OT or UT, it's a fine line I think!

Will try nap at 1.30 for a week and see how that goes and stick to the rest. He has started to wake a few times during the night too which he has never done but we susspect teeth her as he won't leave us clean at the back, only his front teeth.

Sara thanks for the white noise idea, it's defo worth a try. I use it for C to block out J, maybe I should do the same for J! Lol.

As always thank you soo much, I'll pop back to let you know xx

[creations]

Sorry my advice is so hazy!

With the BT delay, chatting and so on. Of course you know it's ok to leave him so long as he is happy and not crying, however I tend not to leave DS doing the singing, alphabet, counting, leg banging etc because he can go on a looong time and will end up making himself OT from loss of sleep and extra stimulation.  Instead I tend to do a bit of WI/WO through these phases, or stand outside his door and quite firmly say a key phrase, 'It's sleepy time, go to sleep'.  More of an instructional tone than a soothing one if that makes sense.
I also tell him that whatever it is he's chatting about is waiting for him in dreamland, like 'no more alphabet now.  All the letters are waiting for you in dreamland, go to sleep first then you can play with the letters when you get to dreamland'.  Funny he does appear to listen to this, maybe because I ask him about his dreams and when he was younger I used to tell him his friends where there waiting for him.

Hope the later nap goes well for you FX.

[Mummy23boys]

Hi ya,

Well no luck so far! Actually he's waking earlier now. Baby was still asleep and I got up to go to the bathroom around 5.40am and I heard him. So I know it's not baby waking him. I had to go in to him last night about 12.30 as he was crying , not in pain but I think he had a bad dream. But he settled straight away. So it's been 5 days of naps at 1.15pm and no difference. My dh thinks we should give a EBT for him cos he's awake so early now. Do you think a BT of 7.30 would make a difference? Or even 7.15? So he can catch up on some sleep? 

He doesn't scream " blue nursery " (lol) anymore so that's something. I just feel he's not getting enough night time sleep. 9.5/10hrs isn't enough right?

Thanks

Love the it's all waiting for you in dreamland. Very cute!

[ZacsMumme]

So what's his routine ATM? IMO 9.5/10 hrs is not enough, he sounds OT. It's a rubbish time developmentally too though - Z would chat for over an hour at this age in bed before he dropped off. But his nights were never shorter than 10/10.5 hrs plus 2h nap or more. x

[creations]

Having just been through very very similar and having also followed the 'usual' advice of EW needing a later nap to encourage later waking, and having also had no luck this time (has worked a treat in the past)...my suggestion is to bring nap and BT earlier and see if you can lengthen both sleeps and recover from OT.
I agree that 9.5 to 10hrs over night is not enough, low sleep needs tend to get at least 10 or 10.5hrs over night.
I've had success with shifting nap an hour earlier and BT and hour earlier in the last week or so. Morning WU continued to be at (the suspected train time) around 5am, he was fighting the earlier nap and BT as you would expect because he is used to set nap and bed times so shifting took several days but he is already more willing for the earlier times AND has started to sleep past the train time!  I suspect he was initially disturbed by the train, couldn't resettle but the result with set nap and bed time was an OT build up, making it even harder to resettle after 5am.  Now that we've shifted the day and sleeping off the OT build up he is more relaxed and able to sleep past the disturbance.
We had
WU 6am shifting to 5am
nap 2pm - 4 or 4.30pm
BT 8pm
(and had this routine for months, it was fine for a long time)
now
WU 5 shifting back towards 6
nap 1pm
BT 7pm

The first day it took 45 min to settle him for nap, day 2 30 min, day 3 15 min. BT equally challenging first day but getting better.
He's taking a little time to get to sleep at BT, so S is coming around 7.20 meaning that even with the improved WU time we are getting about 10.5hrs night sleep (which is about normal for my LO).

Crazy as this sounds my LO did this last year approaching day light saving clock change too (and we shifted a total 2 hrs instead of 1hr, same when clocks change for winter another 2 hr shift!).  I wonder if their bodies are picking up on a change in seasons??

If your LOs mood is deteriorating during the day (tantrums, grouchiness, looking like a zombie) I would certainly go for an hour shift on the whole routine to try to catch up on sleep (and don't cap naps).  As awful as those early mornings are (I hate getting up at 5am!!) I find it preferable to have a 5am start and a happy well slept child rather than a grouchy one who tantrums all day.  My own plan is to see where we are after the clock change next week and reassess sleep needs and nap/BT then.

[Mummy23boys]

Hi Sara,

His routine is..
WU anywhere between 5.30am onwards (was 7 to 7.30!)
Nap 1.15pm
BT aim to be asleep by 8pm sometimes he is and sometimes he will mess around for a while.

I know development has a big part to play- hes really trying to talk...and generally in good form..but some nights before bed he can be hyper and a tad aggressive when playing.

Creations thats great that he has started to sleep past the train times! Same as you I suspect an OT build up. I will shift it all back an hour and see how that goes. We have the hour going forward next week too!

10.5 hrs used to be the norm for J as well before all this! It'll be interesting to see how things turn out with clock change. Hopefully it'll work in our favour! Fx

Busy house here... My 5 month old is in and out of hospital atm so it's all very exhausting!

Thanks ladies xx

[creations]

We have the hour going forward next week too!

I know that's why I thought I'd mention it. Honestly it's so odd how my LO had pre-empted clock change every time since he was born!
Language development really messed up our routine for a while too, I stuck with the regular routine through it and he came through the other side but it was a bit of a battle to keep going.  The messing at BT does sound OT (although can be either OT or UT, I notice only slight differences in DS's behaviour between the two these days, used to be more clear).
Sorry to hear your youngest is not well
health and sleep vibes for all xx

[ZacsMumme]

How long is the nap?
Oh clock change, yay (boo for us were going to get silly o'clock WU from T)
Hope clock change helps.

I'd def pull BT earlier for a few days ie 7

Hugs, what's happened with ds2!

[Mummy23boys]

Hes has a 2 hour nap which I usually have to wake him from and he isn't very happy when I do that! I always wake by 3pm but defo no later than 3.30pm. We have decided to hang tight and wait another few days. If we do shift everything back an hour and there is resistance, than ill need DH to help me. With DS2 it would be tricky! He was asleep last night for 8 and woke at 6am this morn! (I've been up since 5am with DS2!)

DS2 has a lot of fluid around the brain and he has a bleed there too. He has had a CT scan and today an MRI! He is fine though as it is benign and not causing any pressure, so the MRI today is to confirm all is ok. We will need loads more scans as he grows. He's such a big guy he is 22lbs!

Thanks xxx

[creations]

I'm so sorry to hear of these issues with DS2

I think I said before about the nap, I don't cap and some days it was scary how long DS napped but he still made his BT.  So when we were on 2pm nap he could sleep until 4.30pm!!!  And still go to bed at 8pm without fuss (I mean prior to the recent silliness and whole routine shift because the 2pm nap and 8pm BT was running so smoothly for several months).  Now with the shift to nap at 1pm I let him sleep as long as needed, no cap, and in bed 7pm.  He is taking up to 20 mins to fall to sleep at BT but we are still settling into this new routine.
I think if there is OT build up leading to EW then letting the nap go on as long as he wants could really help.  I know ideally the sleep would be attached to night sleep (or rather morning) but to get out of a hole it could help to get that sleep anywhere in the day.  My DS was really doing much better on a longer nap and shorter night and I know we aren't the only ones that had to routine this way to keep everything in balance.  Could be worth a try for a few days.

hugs x

[*Becky*]

hugs, we have the same as you know but unfortunately DD won't do a decent nap either so we are a bit stuck.....I agree with creations FWIW to leave the nap uncapped xx