2 month old - congested. Short naps and short night time sleep

[MamaLiz]

The best gift the books, techniques, and advice gave me was the ability to learn and read/follow my LOs' cues. I use it as a framework, but at the end of the day I have to make it work for my family. Learning to read my babe and knowing approximate A times/sleep routines allowed me to begin trusting myself and listening to my inner mom voice, and know what - sometimes I AP, and sometimes my LOs are OT, but there's something about knowing what's going on with them that makes it so much more manageable, then you can decide what to do!

[jessmum46]

The best gift the books, techniques, and advice gave me was the ability to learn and read/follow my LOs' cues. I use it as a framework, but at the end of the day I have to make it work for my family. Learning to read my babe and knowing approximate A times/sleep routines allowed me to begin trusting myself and listening to my inner mom voice, and know what - sometimes I AP, and sometimes my LOs are OT, but there's something about knowing what's going on with them that makes it so much more manageable, then you can decide what to do!

This ^^^^^^^^^^ Love it!

[Kymmi13]

Hi -

Today LO had another good 1st nap; almost 2 hours (1 hr and 50min).  He woke up in a good mood and was playful.  He had his usual up time of 1hr and 15min.

Second nap; different story.  He started to look a little tired.  So, DH started the wind down early and had him in his bassinet at 1hr 10min (I know the suggestion was to keep him up longer...but, he was turning red and staring off).  He slept for about an hour and woke up REALLY cranky.  We let him fuss for 10-15 minutes until he was nice and angry.  We had to walk around the block with him in an upside down cradle hold for him to calm down, and even then, he would fuss.  His issue at this time is 1. not enough sleep and 2. he wants the boob to soothe.  Since we were 30 minutes from his next feed time, I am constantly battling myself on what to do....let him fuss it out for the next half hour or feed him early?  I want to break the dependency he has on the boob...but, is it too much to ask him at this young of an age?  Am I being to rigid?  Well...I made him wait.  So, by the time he was fed, burped and diaper change....he was back in his basinet for his third nap with an awake time of 1hr and 40 minutes.  YIKES!!  Not what I had planned and I'm trying to NOT beat myself over the head about it...but, I can't help it.  He fussed for 2 minutes and fell asleep...then woke up at the 30 minute mark (total OT here) and fussed for 12 minutes and went back to sleep....not sure for how long.

Yes, I am totally obsessed about his sleep.  I sit in the living room on pins and needles waiting to hear him wail again.  How do I get his second and third nap on track?  How do I soothe him in between the times when I know he's cranky from OT and not having the boob.  DS will NOT take a pacifier...I've tried several time and with several different ones.  My Ped says that the fussiness between naps will gradual get better..but...what does that mean?  And is that true?  I think he's fussy because he's tired and doesn't know how to soothe other than the boob.  The tiredness I am trying to help him with by finding the best times to put him down and letting him work it out for 10-15 minutes.  This is a first for me because this is the MOST he's ever cried in his life. 

Any advice?  Words of wisdom?  I know someone had asked if he had mucous in his stool..and I noticed a tiny bit again today...should I be concerned?

Help???

[MamaLiz]

Hi again! It's easy to get totally wrapped up in "figuring it all out" - on a good day I am able to go with the flow, but I am often right there with you recording A times and put down times and how long it takes to fall asleep and every wake and how long it takes to settle etc - it really can become all consuming and make it hard to see the victories you have had like that great 1st nap and I'm sure you must be getting more comfortable reading your LO - that's huge and will serve you in the long run and here's the thing (and I don't say this to discourage you AT ALL!!!) as soon as you get in a good groove and you've got it all down it changes - they change, they need more A time, you go on vacation, have guests, LO gets a cold or teethes, daylight savings comes, it's summer and they are getting lots of fresh air and exercise, it's winter, etc. I know that in the moment it may not help, but all this experience is going to pay off.
That said, I don't know if this is "good advice", but I would (and do) feed my LO when she is like that, and really, if they are mostly on the 2.5 or 3 or 3.5 or whichever EASY is working for them, and "snacking" isn't an issue, why not? Unless LO gets sleepy on the boob, it isn't going to change your A or S, right?  And, if I remember, there are times when the timing for EAS doesn't really work out and you have to use your judgement and fudge it here and there - sometimes it will be EAEAS or some other - don't worry about the clock too much - I don't think Tracy intended anyone to withhold from a hungry baby, especially at this young age, but that's my opinion.  We don't have the exact same nap lengths here either so my EASY is a bit all over, but I focus on the A time and feeding at WU.  When I get a two hour nap it's pretty close to 3 hours, but with a short nap it might be more like 2-2.5.  It is inevitable in the evening with the cluster feeding and the CN, so I just go with it during the day too - I'd rather not fight and hold out, and try to get her to the end of her A time happy. For me with almost 8 week old dd2, it is more important to me to set the pattern and not feed to sleep, but she often will eat, then have a diaper change and maybe kick around for a bit and want a bit more - sometimes she gulps it all down at once. At once is definitely more convenient, esp with 2.5 year old wanting some time too, but I'd rather know dd2 is satisfied and full before S, esp if she wakes - then I feel more confident and comfortable waiting it out (as long as it's mantra only) and allowing her to resettle on her own when she can.  With dd1 starting EASY later (6 mo or so), once I got her feeds moved to WU instead of to sleep she always did her whole feed at once.  I know that 6 months is a ways off, but I would assume that she would have done the same sooner had I know to feed at wake - she never filled up always falling asleep on the breast! My SIL's LO was on EASY from birth and by 3-4 months did her feeds very quickly and efficiently and all at once at WU - I remember feeling a bit jealous at times as I felt a bit trapped with LO always hanging off the boob, but I swear the fix was EAS not AES! It made all the difference and I think that's the important thing to establish now.  I guess only you can know (or try to figure out) if LO is hungry or just wanting to soothe, but if they take the feed, I'm pretty sure they are hungry - sometimes I am hungry at different times - earlier or later than usual - KWIM? You could always still offer again at the "E time" to "top off" and that might help you stay closer to the EASY that you are going for. Also, if they do just want to soothe, maybe it's worth it to let them suckle for a bit so they don't get all wound up and stressed out??? Clearly I'm not very rigid with my EASY... HTH

[MamaLiz]

Oops - forgot to say that I can't get dd2 to take a paci to save my life - I think I would try that first if it worked, but since it doesn't (I still try now and then), for now I feed at WU regardless of when that is, unless I plan to do a super abbreviated A and get her back down. Generally if she has slept 1 hour or more, for now, I'll take it, and as time goes on, the naps are improving, so I rarely am trying to extend.  This does mean though that each day looks very different - sometimes 2 2hr naps and 2 1 hr naps, sometimes 3 2 hr naps and a shorter nap, sometimes 2 1.75 naps and a 2 and a 1, etc., but the A stays more or less the same (except for the first she needs a bit shorter) and I feed at WU. I know that eventually it will be more like clockwork, but for now, this is pretty good - now, if I could just sort out BT!!! 

[Kymmi13]

Another update:

DS had a good 1st nap of 1 hr 35min.  He woke up happy, smiling and playful.  I fed him shortly after his wake up (his 3 hour mark) and I extended his A time from 1 hr 15 to 1 hr 25.  His 2nd nap was a whopping 2 hours!  Here's the kicker....he was STILL grumpy-bumpy!  WHY???  When I went to pick him up, I didn't wait...I think he might have still been in the process of waking up himself, but he's SOOO noisy and my toddler was still sleeping, so I wanted to minimize the shrieking.  When I got him up, it took him a good 10 minutes to open his eyes...and he was rooting.  He was about 25 minutes early for his next feed...but, when he wakes in the early AM, he has gone 4-5 hours without eating..so, I can't imagine that he would be grumpy from his 2nd nap because of food (he was fed 2.5 hours ago).  If it's not food, then why was he in such a grumpy mood?  Granted, it's the best mood he's been in so far, but it still doesn't compare to the mood he's in after his AM wake up and after the 1st nap wake up.  There's no way I would be able to set him in his bouncy or on his play mat after the second nap.  I can't imagine that he needs more than 2 hours to be in a good mood.  Is this something that just will get better in time?  Any advice/ideas?

Also, he has had some mucous in his stool.  I contacted my pediatrician and she said it's either nasal mucous or a food intolerance.  I would hope it's nasal since he still is congested and I'm putting breast milk drops in his nose before every nap in hopes to flush his nose out and help him breathe.

Thanks for the input!  You are all saving my sanity right now.

[Kymmi13]

Another update:

After feeding DS after his second nap, he was in a better mood.   I decided to stick with the same awake time of 1hr 25 min and put him down for his third nap.  He slept 50 min and woke up crying.  We let him fuss for 15 min and he started his angry cry.  When we picked him up, he was in a GOOD mood.  He let us carry him in a sitting position (we can only do this in the AM when he's in his best mood).  He had his bath and wind down for nighttime and when to sleep without a peep.

So, that leads me to think he was grumpy after his second nap because of food.  He had eaten 2 hours 40min prior, but, maybe for some reason he was hungry already.  When he got up from his third nap, he had eaten 1 hr and 15 minutes.

So, learning from him...does this mean I can/should just adjust the feeding to fudge 20/30 minutes? 

[MamaLiz]

hmmm - impossible to "know", but I'd say if his mood turned after his feed, and there aren't other feeding issues it's at least worth a try, right?  What's 20 minutes really? Is he always grumpy after that nap regardless of nap length? I don't remember, but how is night sleep - could he still be OT and adjusting to all this - it seems that it's really improved quite a bit now, so maybe not. Do you chart his feeds - can you look at how long they are and see if he takes a shorter one before that and maybe is waking hungry, or, is the pattern of wake, then eat getting established and he is expecting a feed when he wakes?  Sometimes my LO is even impatient through diaper change at WU.

When he got up from third nap, you said he had eaten 1hr 15m prior, so do you then hold off 1 hr 45m to get to 3h - you can't because A is only 1h25 right - or is that when you cluster feed?  Just curious. You know what else I have wondered - is the 3 hours from beginning of feed to beginning of feed or end of last feed to beginning of next - not that it matters - I really don't think it does - but that's 20 minutes difference right there...

In any case, since our EASY is always shifting, I just feed when she wakes - I have to keep things simple and manageable, and I don't want to spend her brief awake periods trying to fend her off - to what end? It's hard enough to stay ahead of, entertain, and distract dd1! Plus, dd1 is a bit sensitive to the crying, and if dd2 is content, we all can get along and to her next nap much more happily. It seems that when dd2 is vocally needing my attention, dd1 also suddenly needs me for a variety of things - kwim? For us, I'm happy with anything after 2h30, but I'll feed at a WU regardless provided I'm not trying to get her back down as I don't want to feed to sleep. Also, since I feed at WU, it makes things easier as I don't get part way through something else and then have to stop to feed, or wonder at every grunt and peep if she is hungry. Remember, just because we want them on a 2.5/3/3.5 hour EASY doesn't mean that they will only be hungry/tired/awake etc at those times - I can't say that hunger is why he is grumpy, but I also can't say that he couldn't be hungry before 3h... Feeding is bonding too - so again, maybe he's getting used to the routine of waking and feeding and "likes" to reconnect that way - dd1 was like this, and as we weaned feeds, we had to replace those times with reading and snuggles - to this day, we read in the AM at WU, at nap WU and at BT, and at these times, dd1 gets to be in my lap. HTH! Things really are coming together for his sleep though overall - so great! Curious to see if that third nap will extend on it's own, if he needs shorter A time as the day goes on (though I don't think so - I think OT naps end before that and unhappily in general), or if he just needs the hour there... We are still totally all over the place with dd2! Yesterday 3 beautiful 1.5-2h naps and a 1h CN, today, a capped 2h first nap followed by rubbish the rest of the day - a 30m in the pack on a walk, a 45m in the crib after one was skipped entirely and A was shortened, refused CN despite for sure being tired, having another shortened A, and seeming like she wanted to and was going to go down during WD - and then ended up with almost 3h awake before BT (except fell asleep on DH after EBM bottle during burping for about 20m - I guess that could be the CN - better than nothing!)...

[MamaLiz]

rereading your post, something else occurred to me - maybe he is just slow to wake, and a bit grumpy through this?  I am like this, and so is dd1 - she often prefers to stay in her crib for a time when I wake her in the AM and especially after nap now that I think about it... She can be a real bear, sometimes for the rest of the evening if I push her too fast after nap.  I reallize you have to get him out of cot and quiet for your other LO, but maybe it isn't the sleep or hunger - another variable - that always helps right?  One other thing is that if it were me, I would make sure LO is awake before feeding as my LO is liable to fall back asleep, or not finish waking up depending on how you look at it, if I pop a boob in too early - almost like a DF and that's not what you're going for.  LOs really are fascinating! If only I could make a living reading about LOs and trying to figure out mine!

[jessmum46]

3h feeds means 3 hours from start of one to start of next

Remember EASY is about following cues so if one day LO wants a feed at 2h45 and the next not until 3h15 when they are "supposed" to be on a 3h EASY, that's fine.

[MamaLiz]

Thanks K! I think the phone ap that I use to record E/S gives the "time since last E/S" from the end of last E/S.  Since for sleeps I go by A time however, I would want to be looking at time from end of last sleep, right?  And since my sleep deprived peabrain is having trouble with this for some reason - when we say 3 hour EASY, it is referring to feeds, yes?  All of a sudden I am questioning myself on everything - two dinner strike outs in a row and setting the coffee pot to brew with the top still up has shaken my domestic confidence I fear!

[Kymmi13]

Sorry…there was a typo in my last post.  The eat time of nap 3 was 2 hours 15 minutes (not 1 hour 15 minutes). 

LO (for the last week) has been grumpy after the second nap.  However, yesterday was the best mood he had been in, but still not happy compared to his mood after his AM WU and his first nap.  For night sleep, he does 3-4 hour stretches on good nights and there are occasional nights were he does 2.5 - 3 hour stretches (most of the time, these short stretches are due to gas, I think). 

For feeds, I do take note of when I feed him. For his WU and after his first nap, he usually can wait 10-30 minutes because he's in such a good mood, we do tummy time first and I don't want him doing that on a full tummy.  I usually wait until he asks for food instead of just feeding him to feed him.  The only time I need to feed him right at the 3 hour mark is after his second and third naps.  The feeds that I record are always the beginning of the feed. 

Here's a brief glimpse of yesterday:

9:15 am WU (woke up happy)
A 9:15am
E 9:45am
A 9:45am - 10:30am
S 10:30am - 12:05pm (woke up happy)
A 12:05pm - 12:45pm
E 12:45pm
A 12:45pm - 1:30pm
S 1:30pm - 3:25pm (woke up grumpy)
A 3:25pm - 3:45pm
E 3:45pm
A 3:45pm - 4:50pm
S 4:50pm - 5:40pm (woke up happy)
A 5:40pm - 6:40pm
E 6:40pm
A 6:40pm - 7:25pm
7:25pm BT

I really try to stick to the 3 hour feeding rule as I think he was getting too much milk earlier and he was very chunky and I think some of his gas issues stemmed from eating too much.

Also, for the nights, I've bent thinking of adding another feeding session to the end of his diaper change.  When he wakes, I feed & burp and then diaper change and set him down.  Sometimes, he doesn't eat very much because he's very sleepy once he's had a little bit of food.  I think he may be waking up early because of this; so, I guess it's worth a try?

Today is a new day and we'll see how his second and third naps turn out and his mood.  Any suggestions/comments are appreciated!

[jessmum46]

How are you getting on?  The day you posted looked really good to be honest, though it was quite a short day overall. 

Overnight do you feed every time he wakes or are you using a different way to settle him if it has been less than 3 hours?

[Kymmi13]

Thank you for checking in.  Ironic thing, we had one of "those" nights last night where DS woke up after only 1.5 hours of being set down for the night (which means his last feed was less than 2 hours).  When this happens, DH tries to resettle as I think when ever I attempt to, DS gets more upset that I'm not giving him the boob.  We first let DS try to resettle himself as his cries were more complaints and whimpers.  He complained on/off for quite sometime and then escalated.  DH tried to settle with shh/pat and then rocking and paci - after 20 min, it was passed the 3 hour feeding mark and I fed him and he quickly fell asleep and did a 4 hour stretch.  I am so confused here.  I have no idea why he would be waking only after 1.5 hours of sleep.  He has been doing this on/off for the past week; either he will fuss for 5-30 minutes before BT or he wakes after 1.5-2 hrs of sleep and fuss.  Perhaps he trying to get use to the BT? 

Here's the EASY for yesterday/last night:

   8:15am WU (had to wake him to start the day, he was in a great mood)
E 8:35am
S 9:37am - 11:37am (woke up in a great mood)
E 11:35am
S 12:55pm - 1:48pm (he tried to resettle from 1:48 - 2:04, fell asleep from 2:04-2:20 woke up a bit cranky)
E 2:35pm
S 3:55pm - 4:45pm (woke up cranky)
E 5:30pm

Bath at 6:20pm

E 6:40pm
6:50pm BT (I am shooting for a 7pm/8pm bedtime depending on nap lengths.  Here, he was so pooped he fell asleep on my should while I was burping him)

8:37 woke up crying
10 pm feed and slept until 2:20am


What am I doing wrong here?  Is DS treating the BT as a nap?  He usually is pretty good with the nights, once I set him down, he sleeps at least 3/4 hours the first stretch.  I am not sure what I did wrong/different yesterday that would cause him to wake up after 1.5 hours.  Also, I'm in a tough spot, sometimes when I allow him to try to resettle himself, he does, other times, he works himself up so much that it's a upward battle to try to settle him back down and by that time, I'm left with AP. 

Am I expecting too much out of him at such a young age?  Will things start to get better in a few weeks?  LO1 is a tad over 2 years, so, I need to synchronize the two LO's schedule somewhat.  I'm ultimately shooting for a 7:30/8:30 BT and a 8/9 WU for LO2.  (LO1 is on 8BT and 7/7:30 WU).

Please help....last night was horrible in terms of me doubting myself and not knowing what to do. 

[ZacsMumme]

We tried to get ds2 synced with ds1 and it was terrible so we now have ds2 on 6-6 as their natural rhythm is often earlier rather than later. And ds1 is still on 7.30/7.30.

His A to BT is too long IMO. How old is LO now? 10 weeks? Try for an earlier BT with shorter A and he may settle better. Ie 1.5 hrs. You could throw a CN in to get to a later BT too if you needed.