Author Topic: 3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?  (Read 3105 times)

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Offline odd

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How to squeeze BT routine into 2hr EASY? It ends up with crying - always!
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2013, 07:31:31 am »
hello,

I'm not sure it this topic fits in here. Please feel free to move it where it belongs. I need help here (and everywhere else to be honest ;))

I have a DD 4mo on a 2hr EASY, already posted in sleeping issues on prolonging the naps, stretching the A times. NOthing works, unless accidental. I'm not sure if DD is spiritual or touchy, part of the possible answers in the test are not usefull for us and the result doesn't correspond with the description.

Anyway, the bedtime routine is tricky and I feel like a circus acrobat walking the line. One wrong move and I'm scr**d (sorry). There's the usual 2hr between the feeds, but normally ther's a nap inbetween. The goal is 8pm in bed, fed, sleeping. More or less :)

Let's say DD wakes up at 6pm from her nap. Theoretically I have only 1hr before DD starts getting tired again. So do I start the bathing stright after feeding, 6:10pm? or should I wait till 7pm (it takes time the bathing, the dressing, the feeding, etc)? The problem is, no matter how I arrange it, sooner or later, DD ends up with crying the house down for her bottle (I give in the evening to fill her up to the top). The undressing and bathing goes very fine, DD enjoys it, but afterwards on the towel I can already see she's trying to be very understanding and patient with me drying her, wrapping and putting the pamper on - and that's it! The patience is OVER! No playing, singing, distracting, calming, hugging - it only makes it worse. Only the bottle can save the house and no matter how long after the last feeding (BF). So I feed her naked, covered of course.

And that's not all, after the bottle - crying/nagging, during the dressing up - crying histerical, especially the sleeves. I can forget the nice BT routine with massage, and rubbing the cream on the cute little body, enjoying the baby, putting the pyjama's on, reading a fairy tale.... If I'm lucky I can do ONE of these things after the bottle, depending on how long was the nap, when exactly we started the bathtime, etc... But most of the time she's so tired I have to put her sleep immediately.

Anyone the same truggle? What do I do wrong? Can I somehow change it? How? How do you solve it?

Offline Ima shel Alon

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I remember this so vividly (and it was 2 years ago!), the screaming and shouting straight after the bath, I thought I will go crazy.
The only thing that worked for us was to give a bottle before and after the bath. I personally offered full feeds because I knew that he will only take what he wants and needs (he was and still a big eater), but I am not sure if it will work well for all babies, perhaps it's better to offer a full feed before the bath and then a top up before bed.

But hun, is this the only issue? At her age she is not suppose to be on 2h EASY cycles, she is not suppose to feed so often and if she is doing 2h cycles then how long are her naps? I mean, I can't imagine that you are getting 1.5-2h restorative naps in there. Am I right?
Feeding too frequent and not having having enough and good day sleep can cause a lot of issues (short naps, NW, EW, not getting the hidden milk if you are BF... the list goes on). So I am just wondering how the other things are working for you except for BT.
 
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Offline jessmum46

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Re: 3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2013, 03:00:44 am »
Just to let you know I've merged your two posts together to keep all your advice in the one place x

Offline odd

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Re: 3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2013, 06:56:37 am »
@jessum46:
thanks
@ Ima shel Alon:
as you can seen, nothing works like it should. my only hold on was that she fell asleep so easy (in bed, paci, kiss, exit, no problem), but EVEN THAT is now a problem. since yesterday every nap starts with a drama and 10min cry before she lets herself to shift off. she's very tensed, she holds her breath and lets go, over and over again, looking for ways to keep her eyes open. And she gets nuts when I try to rock her in my arms like I did before when she had the reflux, now she hates it. I'm getting more and more desperate. Last night DD had a 90ml bottle (I offered 150ml), she had enough. I managed it skip then every other nightfeeding, otherwise I would be nursing every 2hr (!!). There was crying of course.

stretching this or that doesn't help at all, and goes very difficult. there are naps that go 2hr and the A-times of 2hr, but it doesn't happen much or become constant. the next day it's again 45min naps and hardly 1hr A-time. she's an angry/tensed/stuborn/impatient baby, especially the last two weeks... I'm wondering if it's the teeth or growth spurt or anything else... I'm hoping one of those. I don't understand it any more.

Thanks for all the good advice to everybody who tried for me (I click on "Thank you" hoping to give you appreciation, I'm not sure it works)

Offline Ima shel Alon

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Re: 3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2013, 12:42:41 pm »
There is a GS at 4m so it could be it, but I read your hold thread that Katherine moved here and I doubt that's actually the reason. I mean, you have had issues for quite a while, no?
stretching this or that doesn't help at all, and goes very difficult. there are naps that go 2hr and the A-times of 2hr, but it doesn't happen much or become constant. the next day it's again 45min naps and hardly 1hr A-time. she's an angry/tensed/stuborn/impatient baby, especially the last two weeks
This was so us, really. I can't tell you how my heart goes out to you. DS was really really difficult in the first few months, I had PPD which made things worse for all of us and I thought this will be my life forever.
It was only when I made a plan of increasing the A to an age appropriate one that things got significantly better. He was a different better which made me into a different mom. I couldn't believe that such a simple plan and just following it will help so so much.
So of course, you are the one to decide what is best for your LO, I am just telling you that I was in your shoes and that it CAN get better. But it's for you to do the work. Think of it as you are the one who is deciding when it's time to sleep, because she is not old enough to know yet.
So, is your A time an hour long now? If it is, or if it's longer than that I would just stick to that for 3 days. No matter what you see her doing you are going to stick to that A time. After 3 days you are going to up it by 10min to 1:10 and stick to that. I can't emphasize enough the "sticking to it". If you are going to move away from the A time you'll be more confused (and she will as well) and you won't give her enough time to get used to the new A time. For those few days you are going to ignore sleepy cues as much as you can. Sure, if you think by the end of the day she is very OT then you can AP a nap if you want to, but for me - I had to be very very strict with myself in order to help him.
After 3 days you'd up the A time to 1:20 and stick with that. We are going to get her to 1.5h at least. If naps will still be short then we are going to keep on increasing her A time till we get it right, and because you are going to do it gradually, upping by just 10min at a time then you are not going to create massive OT. You can expect some OT naps but that's a part of increasing A time, just prepare yourself for that and keep on going - you are doing it for her and for you, so you can get some more rest.
You can have a look here: chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months that babies her age are doing around 2h A time, she is very far from that, but that would be the healthy awake time for her that will make her tired enough to sleep better.
I read something that another fellow mod wrote on a thread with the same issue, I couldn't say it better:
When you are upping A times the babies HATE it!! This is a situation where i say 'Mummy knows best!' I swear- my guy would STILL love to be up for 1.5 hours then sleeping for 40 mintues all day i reckon!! Once they are used to the A time push- this only takes a day or 2- they are much happier and sleeping better. Also- at this age they can seem tired and grumpy- when they actually need a change in scenery. My guy was a big fan of the 'oh- this is boring with boring old mummy- better go to sleep!' 

And one more thing. My mother was great when DS was born. We lived abroad and she came to stay with us for a month and it was a great help. But my ILS... don't get me starting. Till this day they make me feel (if I am not careful) that THEY did it much better. Their 3 kids had no sleep problems, ate only healthy food, watched no television, angels. I will never forgive my them for coming for a visit 1.5 weeks after DS was born and stressing me so much about how hungry it is and how I am so stressed that my milk was no good (well, it's them who made me stressed) that I had to stop BF.
I had a lot of pressure from people around me. I was alone and the people who were actually supportive were half way around the world. BF, sleeping, what to do with him when he is awake, his constant crying - everyone knew better!
But you see, they didn't. It was my insecurity as a mother that let them influence my decisions and the way I did things, but deep down inside I knew what I should be doing, *I* knew what is best for him and for us. And only when I started ignoring the B$ things got better. It wasn't easy, but I found saying "yes, yes" to what everyone else said was good - there was no discussion or an argument and they thought I took on their advice and were happy. And when I started believing in myself things got better. There is no parenthood which is easy and I think there are many things that our parents generation forget about being newish parents. Like my ILS for example. I told you that their kids were angels, right? Slept and ate well?
Well, sometimes something will slip into a conversation that will make me realize that things were not great at all, and that on so many levels I am a more informed mother, and with the help of this forum able to make choices about my child that are far better than they did.
In reality, they had a son, my DH, who BF on demand FOREVER, he was still BF when he was like 2y old and refused any solid food. And because he had a bad start with solid food and refused solids as a toddler and later on as well. He ate a bit, but it was such a fight.
And their kids didn't sleep. They can't remember it in general, but just last Sunday they were mentioning that they had to drive DH when he was a toddler in the car so he will fall asleep and the car had to stay driving or he'd wake. They forget these things when generally looking back at them being new parents. It doesn't make them bad people and I am sure that like the people around you they are full of good intentions, but it doesn't make them right and it doesn't make them better parents than you are now.
People forget and people always think they know better. Say thank you but in your heart say no, thank you.

Keep your head high, you are a wonderful wonderful mommy, even in times your LO cried what seems to be forever. These are the struggles of the first months with babies who are a bit more difficult than their angle fellows.
Many hugs, hun.
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Offline SDER

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Re: 3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2013, 14:09:38 pm »
You know, a thought occurs.

Your LO reminds me of my son.  She seems rather spirited/grumpy and doesn't like changes in her routine.  She seems to be taking most of her calories during the night and just snacking during the day.  Do you think it might be that she is just too distracted by what goes on around her during the day to be able to take a decent feed?  I know my son gets distracted by anything and everything during the day and it's been hard work to get him to up his calorie intake during the day.  Perhaps, if you recreated the conditions that you have at night for your daytime nursing sessions, DD would be able to feed better.  What do you think?

ETA: And I agree with Ima shel Alon!  Our parents tend to forget what life was like when their own children were still little.  I bet if you asked most people that are your parents' age, they would all tell you that their babies were wonderful lol.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 14:17:10 pm by SDER »

Offline odd

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Re: 3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2013, 09:04:38 am »
You have no idea how much it means to me: the advice from all of you and especially the decription of your own experiences and the whole point that in the end THE MOTHER KNOWS BEST. I so much need to remember that!

@Ima: sorry to hear about your PPD. I had a very difficult start too (relationship problems), alone with all that "new mother" thing of a baby with an unrecognised silent reflux and no routine what so ever. I didn't even know that a baby 'had to be put to sleep', because my mum told me it would sleep on its own. wrong! my mum stayed with us for a few weeks and things didn't get better. plus the idea of cluster feeding, what a disaster. we ended up in chaos of feeding every hr (because DD cried, but not of hunger!), silent reflux, gases, cramps, OT, OS, chaos, stress and loneliness. But the hormons kept me going like a machine and I didn't even feel tired although I didn't sleep. Weird. After all it's exactly what you say: follow your own instinct and it will be good, OK - with some reading, but don't let others to 'know it better'. I had no knowledge on babies and motherhood and took ALL the advice all together trusting it will be best. wrong again! if I ever have another baby, I will know it sooooo much better :)

@Sder: I do feed her when still in the dark bedroom, straight on bed after WU. in the mroning already she starts fussing. I really think it's got to do with the supply and it's been a problem for weeks/months now. that's why almost from the beginning she gets the extra bottle/-s.
@Sder: 'grumpy type' doesn't sound that fun, does it :D

So, yesterday was not that fun: my attempt of stretching whatever there was to stretch was a bad idea. I put DD back to sleep at every WU (45min+45min usually) but she didn't understand it and was very (!!) upset. I didn't like it either. She did fall back asleep every time, but... :) and her A-times were 1,5-2hr.
For the CN I went for a walk, as she was crying when put to sleep in bed.

Today is a new day. You know it's much easier to understand now. I'll just set fixed times for her A-times (1,5hr - she can almost do it), instead of 'stretching by 5-10min'. Call me stupid, but it just got to me yesterday, and I'll stick to that. My only concern is what if she's not sleepy?? What if she notices that her signs are being neglected? Won't she stop communicating and give up showing signs of hunger, tired, etc?? And eventually loose her trust in me, the caregiver?

One more thought:
I've found yesterday a very good description of 'high need babies'... what are your thoughts about it if you've heard of it? I had a feeling that my DD was described there ;) I can give a link if it's alowed here. It just hit me on my head! What an eyeopener! No metter whether my DD is or isn't, it also reassured me that it's not my parenting skills, but it's just my DD, her temperament, character and her soul.

I feel much better today. And the sun is shinning at last!!!
I hope you're doing fine too.

Offline SDER

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Re: 3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2013, 12:02:54 pm »
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But the hormons kept me going like a machine and I didn't even feel tired although I didn't sleep. Weird.

It is indeed amazing to see what the human body can go through (ie: sleep deprivation).  I used to need 10h straight of sleep to have a good day (8 to be functional).  Now, if I get even 6 hours of sleep, I'm good as gold!

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I do feed her when still in the dark bedroom, straight on bed after WU. in the mroning already she starts fussing.
Darn, and here I thought I'd found the key to your feeding problem...  ;)

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I put DD back to sleep at every WU (45min+45min usually) but she didn't understand it and was very (!!) upset. I didn't like it either. She did fall back asleep every time, but... :) and her A-times were 1,5-2hr.
Even though it doesn't feel like it to you maybe, I see that as progress.  It was a battle at first (still is sometimes) to get my son to prolong his silly 45 minute naps, but overall, it makes a big difference on his mood during the day.  I think it's normal that your daughter doesn't understand why she's being coaxed back to sleep because she's just not used to it.  Give it a couple of days of consistently working on getting her to prolong her naps and she might start to accept the "rule change" (or, at the very least, fight it less).  Sometimes, when I try to get my son to prolong his nap, I have to turn him to his side (he's a back sleeper) facing away from me because during those moments he either starts chattering with me because he thinks it's playtime or he starts screaming at me because he's wondering why I'm getting him up ("get me out of bed already mom!")  ;)

I think it's great that you're up to 1.5 A times!  Keep it up!

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My only concern is what if she's not sleepy?? What if she notices that her signs are being neglected?
I would be tempted to say that if you don't see any sleepy signs, try to keep her up, but maybe do more low energy activities as she gets closer to the 1.5-1.75h mark, that way it would act somewhat like a wind down routine.  And once she starts showing tired sings, try to get her down.  When I see my son's tired signs (yawning, rubbing his eyes) I pick him up and tell him what's going to happen ("Oh, you're yawning/rubbing your eyes/cranky Charles.  That's because you're tired.  Come, let me put you down for a nice nap").  I've been using these key words for a couple of weeks now and I've found it to help.  Even though he doesn't understand what they mean, he seems to understand the routine in them.

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I've found yesterday a very good description of 'high need babies'... what are your thoughts about it if you've heard of it?
  Yes, yes and yes!  I think your daughter might really fit the description well.  Where did you find this info?  I found that the one on Dr. Sears' website to be really informative.

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'grumpy type' doesn't sound that fun, does it
Haha!  No, it doesn't.  Do you know about the five types of personalities that Tracy outlines (Angel, Textbook, Spirited, Grumpy, Touchy) and their characteristics?

Glad it's sunny over in your part of the world.  We just had a 10cm snowfall yesterday...again...and there was hardly any snow left on the ground   :'(
I can't wait for Spring to be finally here!

Offline Ima shel Alon

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Re: 3,5m-old still on 2h-EASY, not always easy. should I change? HOW?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2013, 18:36:22 pm »
Re A time: I thought that she was doing only 1h A time, no? I am just afraid that if you jump to 1.5h A time at once then she'll get OT. Perhaps if you think she can cope with more than 10min increase, then up it by 15min? So 1:15h for 3 days, then 1.5h A.
I don't have experience with just setting a time. Maybe I didn't understand you - you want to go up to 1.5h and stay with that? Because if 1.5h is not enough for her then she'll keep on giving you short naps.
I think I said it in me previous post but when tweaking A time you are basically ignoring sleepy cues (especially with a high needs baby, mine was the same) and just watching the clock.
What if she notices that her signs are being neglected? Won't she stop communicating and give up showing signs of hunger, tired, etc?? And eventually loose her trust in me, the caregiver?
You know what, it might be the case. I mean, I had a horrible sleeper and as soon as I found the system of upping A times and not relaying on sleepy signs he was a different baby. But I never could go back to watch sleepy cues again, ever. I was always a clock watcher and I didn't feel that he lost the trust in me.
Your LO doesn't actually knows when she NEEDS to go to bed, this is your job, and even if she is crying and screaming her head off but you are there with her and for her then she will never loss her trust in you. It's babies who are left to cry alone who lose trust in their care giver.
There is no harm in being a clock watcher and not follow sleepy cues. They are so so confusing with a high needs baby and then you end up with poor sleep which makes LO even more high needs. I have been there and is hell.
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