10 month old NW & EW

[tweetie]

Hello here we are again   
just as a reminder 7.5 mo long NW 
We do have many things going on parallely and I would ask you for help.

1. Since the middle of the March we did not have long NW till now - already awake 3 hr  . However when we got rid of long NW we have had constant EW - around 5.40 am, 6.20 am the latest and nothing could extend sleeping. I am aware that teething has a big influence on that but I am also wondering should I extend first A time from 4 hr to 4.15? 

2. Our naps are pretty short - from 1.10 to 1.20 each in better times and 1.05 and 1.10 hr in worse. But BT is pretty late (no way before 7.30 pm)- day is 13 hr if not even longer; during night she sleeps 9-10 hr. Because of teething and developmental stuff I am holding her to fall a sleep - working on independent sleep is past tense  . Her EASY is: first A time 4 hr, second depending on the nap length 3.15-3.30 hr, the same with the last A time.

3. Last two weeks we are working on weaning feeding at 11 pm but she still wakes around that time regularly and crying. We arranged that I try to get her back to sleep - if it does not work then my DH takes her. Usually she would fall a sleep and wake again around 00.30 am or even 2.30 am, few times even 4 am and then I would feed. However today I fed after she was awake for 1.5 hr (she is still awake) because she did not eat for 5.5 hr. I am sure that this long NW is connected with that. I am not sure am I on the right way? Could you help me with your opinion please?

Thank you very much.

[becj86]

I think you're heading for this: 10/11 month old sleep gone wonky? Read this first! and you probably need to cap one nap, bring your day in to 13hr MAX. and get a bit more night sleep in. I know you'd probably prefer a shorter night after all the dramas you've had with night sleep but what you're doing at the moment is a recipe for chronic OT to develop.

To be brutally honest, if your night is 10hr or longer, she is not EWing It might be early in the morning but a 10hr+ night is not technically an EW.

Does she have a dummy? If so, does that help with NW's? Just wondering - definitely not time to introduce one but if there's already one in play...
DS often wakes thirsty - can you offer water at night? ie. can she drink from a cup sufficiently well, is she getting enough calories in her day.

[tweetie]

Thank you Bec

I think you're heading for this: 10/11 month old sleep gone wonky? Read this first! and you probably need to cap one nap, bring your day in to 13hr MAX. and get a bit more night sleep in. I know you'd probably prefer a shorter night after all the dramas you've had with night sleep but what you're doing at the moment is a recipe for chronic OT to develop.

I have read this so from tomorrow I plan to cut morning nap to 45 minutes, do you think is that ok?.
Our problem is that 13 hr day. How usually works - if she sleeps 1 hr in the morning she would fall a sleep after 3.15 hr - then pm nap could be 1.5 hr but after that there is no way that BT would be sooner than 3.5 hr A time. How to force her to sleep? Yesterday BT - it took me 2 hr and we ended up in my bed. I am worried that we will end in props with rocking and co sleeping. I am doing everything to make her sleep but not very successful - I have phobia from OT 

To be brutally honest, if your night is 10hr or longer, she is not EWing It might be early in the morning but a 10hr+ night is not technically an EW.

For example - she wakes around 6 am, BT 7 pm  (aiming 13 hr day) WU 5 am - not EW hmmm that means I am in trouble 

Does she have a dummy? If so, does that help with NW's? Just wondering - definitely not time to introduce one but if there's already one in play...
DS often wakes thirsty - can you offer water at night? ie. can she drink from a cup sufficiently well, is she getting enough calories in her day.

Yes and not interested at all - dummy with face, without face, just muslin, nothing. I am constantly putting it next to her, in her hand...I know we messed up lately - when DH was taking her in the night he would put her in bed with him till next feeding.
Maybe she is thirsty - I could give her sippy cup.
She had 5 BF/24 hr,
1. BF (night)
2. BF after WU
   breakfast (solids) (refusing BF between breakfast and lunch)
   lunch (solids)
3. BF after lunch (she had one more BF before BT, today we skip that one)
4. BF -  BT.

last few days she eats decent amounts of solids for lunch so today we removed one BF probably we will end up with 4 or if I would give her around 11 pm then 5. I am never sure about calories - finally she takes breakfast and lunch in ok amounts (around 130 g, recommended 190 g here) I noticed that whole afternoon she could be without food i.e. from 2 pm till 7 pm. When I offer between lunch and BT it does not make difference on waking around 11 pm.

Thank you very much I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

[tweetie]

Last night I fed around midnight (she had just 4 BF during day, she really ate) and when I put her in crib she started to cry. Her tooth came out  . However we noticed new behaviour (last few nights): she is crying like a crazy and when I hold her or walk with her she calms down, completely awake - when I am trying to put her in the crib or even in bed with me she is crying very hard, screaming, kicking legs  I pass her to DH (we started that with weaning one feed 2.5 weeks ago) and leave the room - she is crying even harder, kicking with legs, screaming and looking for me - is that separation anxiety? It takes him pretty long to calm her down and of course he put her with him in bed (after great night  perfect reason for morning fight  ). She slept with him till morning. I am not sure what to do regarding this behaviour? I would not like she feels I am not with her, but last night it was very hard to carry her around - I became very stressed out after 1 hr of doing it and can not be good comfort for her (plus I had bad belly pain). Plus she was trying to stand yesterday... God help us 

[becj86]

Tips for seperation anxiety

She could be ill - ear infection or something meaning she doesn't like lying flat? DS did similar behaviour to this:

crying like a crazy and when I hold her or walk with her she calms down, completely awake - when I am trying to put her in the crib or even in bed with me she is crying very hard, screaming, kicking legs   I pass her to DH (we started that with weaning one feed 2.5 weeks ago) and leave the room - she is crying even harder, kicking with legs, screaming and looking for me

two nights straight just before it became obvious that he was sick.

from tomorrow I plan to cut morning nap to 45 minutes, do you think is that ok?.

Yes, I think that's a good plan. It should also help to discourage the waking early in the morning and extend the night a bit.

I'm a wimp when it comes to actively weaning night feeds - DH was doing the settling and DS screamed 3hr straight. DH finally begged me to feed him which defeated the whole purpose, so we've not tried again. They drop eventually...

she wakes around 6 am, BT 7 pm  (aiming 13 hr day) WU 5 am - not EW hmmm that means I am in trouble

Not EW, but not ideal if you see what I mean. I think once you cap that morning nap at 45min and settle her into the new routine, she should take a longer night.

[tweetie]

Thank you Bec I appreciate it.

For now I do not see any signs of illness but I will keep an eye on her. I am thinking whole morning about all this and I could say that she started to fight against sleeping and maybe crib during the day and now night too... She was not in the good mood and looked very tired  so I did not start today with waking her from am nap  . Now she is sleeping already 1.5 hr and I know how it will look like today but this is my fault...

I know - I was constantly against active weaning of NF but I got a hint when she started to skip that feeding around 11 pm lets say so 3 days in the row, then she would eat one or two nights then again she would skip... and usually when she would eat around 11 then she would wake regularly around 3 am ate and around 5 started to burp (no matter I burped her after eating) and was not hungry at 7 am etc etc... First ten days I or DH would give her paci and she would be fine or when I would pass her to him it would not take longer then 10 minutes to return her back to sleep. Her behaviour from Saturday to Sunday night make me to change opinion and I fed her yesterday. It is interesting that she did start to show (last few nights) intention she would like to fall a sleep with my breast in her mouth what did not happen in the past - I mean she would try (just sometimes, always preferred paci for sleeping) but when I would gently pull the nipple  out she would just open mouth for paci - now she does not let it go, then I let her then trying few more times gently (she is catching back  ) and give her paci. I feel sorry to do that but I do not want to create new bad habit.

From tomorrow we will start with the new routine and let you know how does that go.

[tweetie]

Just stop by to tell Bec that you were right! Night before last night she slept pretty decent (few short wakings), last night again 1.5 hr of crying - I heard a little bit and today morning it is clear - she started to cough - not bad, nose is clear but she is coughing from time to time.

Yesterday we started with schedule - morning nap 45 min, she was awake 3.15 hr, slept 1.30 hr, awake 3.40 hr - fought against sleeping, fell a sleep with rocking  . I am just not sure should I continue with new schedule or let her sleep because of this little coughing - for now she behaves normal and in the good mood.
Thank you

[becj86]

Sorry she's sick - hope she feels better soon.

I would probably keep on with the 45min capped morning nap and watch her - she may want to go to bed a bit earlier or sleep a bit later in the morning which I'd go with if she's crook but I think the signs are sufficient that she needs to shift to the capped morning nap regardless of the illness.

[tweetie]

Thank you Bec. I did cap the nap 

[tweetie]

Small update and one question 

Yesterday EASY:
WU 6.40 am
A 4.10 hr
S 45 min (cap)
A 3.11 hr
S 1.57 hr - I cap 
A 3.32 hr
BT 8.12 pm

BT - God that was painful - over 1 hr rocking, walking - when I  put her in the crib she was screaming (or stood up and screaming), in my arms without rocking screaming, refusing to sleep but she did look tired - whole day practicing to stand and try to make few steps - I did APOP because her day was closer to 14 hr  .

Night was great (hopefully I will not jinx it  )- for her, now I am getting cold and could not sleep from throat pain  - one waking at 1.35 am I fed, and she drifted  ; WU 6.20 am, she is coughing just from time to time - sound is pretty bad but she is in the good mood.

Question - pm nap- I did cap it in a fear she will not have enough A time to BT . I wanted to keep 13 hr day. Is it ok to cap pm nap or I should cap am nap in order to move pm nap earlier and on that way shift BT?

Thank you.

[becj86]

Yes, you would cap the morning nap shorter to decrease the A time between naps and bring BT earlier.

Ideally, you wouldn't cap the long nap (after all, you're leaving it a long nap to train LO to sleep a long nap for when you go to one nap) and never under 2hr.

Standing and walking are two milestones that really stuff sleep up too.

[tweetie]

Thank you very much Bec.
Today we will do the same as yesterday (she already slept 45 min) but from tomorrow I will cap am nap to 30 min  .

[tweetie]

I think we have a problem 

Yesterday after caping am nap to 45 min her pm nap was 30 minutes, no way she would sleep longer so I put her in bed "earlier" and she fell asleep at 6.12 pm (day was 12 hr). However she woke up after 45 minutes and there is no way she would go back to sleep. Finally after 2 hr (rocking, walking etc) she was in bed and WU was 6 am.

Today WU 6 am, A 4.10 hr, S 30 min - I cap it. A time was 3.10 hr but again she was fighting against the nap very much. She slept 1.5 hr, A time was 3.50 min BT 7 pm - again she fought and cried . Again - the same scenario - she slept 45 minutes and since then she is awake - already 1.45 hr and there is no sign she will go back to sleep.
It is true that she is sick - she is coughing and has runny nose but I do not think that is the main reason she fights against sleeping. Did I mess up somewhere? Thank you.

[becj86]

These:

S 30 min - I cap it. A time was 3.10 hr but again she was fighting against the nap very much.

her pm nap was 30 minutes

Again - the same scenario - she slept 45 minutes and since then she is awake

suggest she is overtired at the time you're putting her down. You probably need to decrease that middle A time substantially when you cap the nap in the morning. 3hr would be the max. I'd do after a 30min nap, and possibly a little less given her age - maybe 2:45.

[tweetie]

Thank you Bec. I will try to "make" her to sleep.

[tweetie]

Hello I think we are in trouble 
She was sick - pretty bad - coughing and could not breath so she was waking up more often. We would put her in our bed - I could put our bed - actually head part in higher position than her mattress in the crib . so it did work. Regarding her EASY it looked like that till Friday:
1st A: 4 hr
S 30 min (I cap)
A 2.5 hr (did APOP to sleep)
S 1.20 - 2.10 hr
A approx 3 hr
day was max 12.5 hr.
Problem was pm nap - she could not sleep more than 1.30 hr in most of cases - just twice was 2 hr. I was thinking it was also because of the problems with breathing. In addition each night she would be awake around 45 min -1 hr and finally asleep. I was worried and afraid of OT so last Thursday I put her in Baby Bjorn for pm nap thinking she will sleep at least two hours - no way - her max was 1 hr. Night after that was ok, day also ok including pm nap 2 hrs and I was happy. But from Friday to Saturday night from the hell - 3 hr of screaming and crying - no teeth, no pain. She would calm down only when we would carry her and walk. When I tried to put her in the cradle position for rocking to sleep she was freaking out. I have never seen such a behaviour. Saturday I let her sleep in the morning and it looked like her old scenario, slept 2 hr, pm nap I cut 50 min, fight against BT but nothing to bad. Night - woke up crying I fed and one hour of walking rocking to make her sleep. When she fell asleep, she sleeps restless, kicking legs, it does not look like a sleep... Yesterday her EASY looked like described above (with short am nap). We did mess up and her 2nd A time was 3.10 hr (we could not make it to come back home before) but she slept 2.10 hr. This night, she slept well till feeding at 00.30 am and after that - again 45 min of rocking and walking - she is sleepy but fight against sleep - screaming... now she is awake from 4.30 am. Difference is - there is no way you could put her in the crib or in bed - she is freaking out  kicking legs - doesn't want sit, lay down, anything... she does not sleep even with APOP - becomes very nervous in carrier, rocking works after century - my hands are in pain, I was also sick and I am physically exhausted  . Dh too, he would hold her and trying to put her in bed with us and it would work after century 

Her behaviour is very challenging during the day last whole week - I put the blame on her disease but now she is fine and behaviour did not change. I checked mental leaps and yes she is in 46 week and she does behave as they described even worse - God help us...

Now question - I am not sure am I doing ok with her EASY? Is there anything else I could do for sleeping? I am afraid of OT and that I will not be able to move her from our bed but when she wakes and freaks out she just wants to be close (I just went to living room - it was silent - DH put her on sofa and she sleeps with him - after 1.15 hr of APOP), holding us with hands... Sorry for messy post but I am nicely said dead 

Now I could see that long NW were blessing because she was playing alone and this - rocking for hours - disaster   
Thank you

[becj86]

Remind me what was happening with the morning nap capped at 45min? I wonder if she's a little OT for that PM nap - maybe let her sleep a little longer or shorten the middle A time by 10-15min and see what happens.

Big hugs, honey xx you have stuck through some tough times

[tweetie]

Thank you Bec

I made morning nap shorter to decrease the A time between naps and bring BT earlier.   Now BT is predictable A time between naps predictable just nights are bad  . Comparison of A time between naps - when I want her to sleep after 2.5 hr I need rocking lets say so 10-15 minutes and she fights against sleeping. Today grandfather was here so she fell asleep after 2.43 hr - it took me less then 5 minutes to make her sleep. Isn't that the right sign of A time?

 I could try to shorten A time I am just worried that it will take long rocking... Since she does not have breathing problems anymore I am curious will she nap 2 hr today (pray to God). Do you think that even 2 hr is too short for pm nap?

What I noticed yesterday - she woke up after 2.03 hr and everything was fine but pretty fast she was in bad mood and tired. However she fell a sleep after filling her quote of 3.09 hr A time before bed 

edit: pm nap was 1.50 hr

[tweetie]

Yesterday EASY - A 4 hr, S 30 min A 2.43 hr, S 1.50 BT it took her 50 minutes to finally fall asleep. She could not fall a sleep despite rocking, holding my hand, .... so last A time was almost 4 hr

another bad night  waking up crying, tired, could not sleep. 11.50 pm, rocking and jiggling around 30 min (I do not look at the watch anymore do not have a strength), WU 1.00 am - I fed, rocking I do not know, half an hour, pass her to DH, she was awake, tired, they fell asleep at certain time point but he said she was so restless with legs (like she does crunches), head... WU 5.50 am

What I noticed when I pass her to DH she is freaking out wanting to go back to me but when I  leave the room she calms down faster in his hands than in mine  She will be awake but lay down next to him, while in my case she will cry could not calm down  SA?

Today I will extend am nap to 45 min I really do not know what to do 

[becj86]

Comparison of A time between naps - when I want her to sleep after 2.5 hr I need rocking lets say so 10-15 minutes and she fights against sleeping. Today grandfather was here so she fell asleep after 2.43 hr - it took me less then 5 minutes to make her sleep. Isn't that the right sign of A time?

Fair call. Length of nap is relevant too, but if you've got that variation in settling, that's also got to go into the mix.

SA would be a good possibility.

How mobile is she? DS used have very restless legs (and everything else) if he hadn't done enough physical activity in a day and it would wake him and keep him awake.

[tweetie]

Thank you Bec.
I know just there are rarely cases she would sleep
She is pretty mobile - crawling like a crazy  , standing and make maybe one or two steps, most of the day on the floor. It is hard to put her to sit for feeding so I would not say that would be the problem.

Today I let her to sleep 45 min, A 3 hr, S 2.30 hr  , A 3 hr (it took her 30 min to fall asleep with my help)  BT after 13.5 hr we will see how the night will look like: I just came back - one waking after 1 hr, gave her paci, pick for short and return her back....

[tweetie]

Update - she woke up at 2 am - I fed - fell asleep within 10 minutes and then something would wake her... she could not sleep and was restless but not hysteric and I did not do rocking. I gave her my hand in the crib and path her and apply all methods - you could see she was trying but could not. After 1 hour I put her in bed with me and it took her another half an hour and finally she was sleeping - restless, sometimes small crying in the dream but we made it till 7.10 am today  . 

[becj86]

Are you sure there's no pain? This struggling to sleep when she clearly wants to sleep usually goes with pain or chronic OT and sometimes developmental leaps - its not usually something that only disappears for a week or two here and there, yk?

[tweetie]

Thank you Bec. I am not sure what it is exactly but if there is a pain then only could be teething - yesterday during pm nap which was short there was a huge wet spot from drawling. I think that could be mixture of that, mental leap and definitely OT. Yesterday her pm nap was only 1 hr and this night is disaster. After feeding at 00.30 am her sleeping became bad, restless, she could not sleep in the crib, I put her in my bed and that sleeping was torchering till 3.30 am and since then she is completely awake. Rocking already 2 hr and she does not sleep but also hysterical when I put her in the crib, very tired, just crying.

Do not take me wrong and I do not want to look ungrateful but I started to think that cutting am nap is maybe not our solution because in the last two weeks she could not get longer pm nap except I think 3 or 4 times. When she did get them longer nights were not great but heaven in comparison with the rest of them IYKWIM? In addition I do not know did I create bunch of props with zero results (they do not work anymore...) and things are getting even worse  cosleeping, jiggling, rocking, walking, bouncing on the ball longer and longer and result no sleep or very poor sleep for her for me nothing.

Our EASY yesterday after am nap of 45 min, A 3 hr (rocking from 2.40 hr she is like a clock), pm nap only 1 hr with rocking and trying to extend 1.15 hr, wasn't in the good mood. A time again 3 hr (rocking from 2 hr aiming early BT).
What is good from cutting am nap is that she does not fight so badly against naps and BT, A time more predictable and at BT she is not so hyper  but nights are hell.     

I really do not know what to do? Let her sleep tomorrow as much as she wants am and pm nap even she would have too late BT I really do not know 
Sorry for complaining but I am completely stuck 

[becj86]

How would you feel about one nap as long as she'll take and a really early bedtime? It might help her to have a super long night... just to get over some of the OT. I guess that only helps if she sleeps at night though :-/

I think we talked some time ago about reflux but you can't get any meds unless she fails to thrive... I presume you're doing all the natural anti-reflux things just in case? Reflux, food intolerances and other chronic medical conditions are the only things I've come across that result in such prolonged poor sleep.

Big hugs xx

[tweetie]

Thank you Bec.
Sorry for not responding yesterday but the night was bad and I had lots of work... So yesterday she had two naps: am  1.46 hr, pm 1.30 hr, slept well and peaceful, ate at midnight, went back to sleep very fast (that was the progress!)and from 3 am-5 am - party - same scenario. Only when I am walking and holding her she is absolutely fine looking around, even ready to be awake (she is tired that is out of the question), but cradle position, laying her down in my bed or crib - God pure hysteria. When I pass her to DH - even worse hysteria she wants back to me, kicking with legs (it looks like tantrum behaviour  ). After two hours I ended up putting her in my bed having my hand on her and cuddle her while she was crying  I was desperate thinking she will not sleep but she fell asleep within ten minutes  She did kick me with legs ...
I was thinking about all possible pain causes but simply I can not see them. She did burp yesterday once when I picked her up but previous night nothing... I did call my paed today and talked to her - she said - since she is in very good mood during the day. if that would be pain it would not stop it would be constant    She thinks I am a prop (of course she said I could come she can check on) - maybe she is right  . Today am nap 1.30 hr. Pm nap - I let her in the crib without bunch of rocking and I got the same behaviour like in the night - I was stuck  maybe I was blind? So I did not pick her up I was there all the time holding her cuddling kissing and she was hysterically crying then stop and the again. It took  her  50 minutes (it looked similar like in the night)- God that was stressful  - I have never done that with her and I have guilty feeling . She finally fell asleep . Since it was already late I woke her up after 35 min-
BT - I did the same just spend more time with her and she fell asleep holding me for the hand without crying. When I compare this two cases - I think she was overtired for pm nap or it was too short wind down time ... she was refusing to sleep (but she was very tired) or wanted rocking I do not know -  she did not have any pain

I will see how this night will go. I am feeling bad to make wrong judgement if she is in pain but from the other side this behaviour afternoon was so similar to these from night and she was not in pain at all for that I am sure ..
I have read everything here about SA and how to put them in the crib so hopefully I am right. If you think I am wrong just shout please 

[becj86]

We've looked at reflux,right? timing and behaviour suggest pain when flat. what about an ear infection pr fluid in the ear ??

[tweetie]

Yes, regarding reflux - her mattress is elevated (till two days ago it was even higher because of her stuffed nose), I do burp her. I was thinking since spring is here that maybe it is activated again (like all stomach things activates in the spring...). I could not see any signs from the past, as I said she did burp night before last night but no gases, no typical swallowing with the sound. Previous nights nothing what I could recognize.

I did call paed because of the ear - Paed is so self confident  that she would show some signs or something during the day or she would be in pain constantly  when she is crying in the night (both positions) Our paed is not very sympathetic person  and I am not thrilled with her attitude but everybody says she is very good (that does not mean she could not make mistake). If this will continue I will definitely go on Monday. Now when I am thinking - last two days her cheeks would be pretty red and have small rash - but it would go away within few hours - I could not connect that with food , maybe because we were outside (sun?) but in the shadow 

The fact that she does calm down when she is in upright position is what is kicking me in the eye but from the other side I need to walk,. Sitting and holding her in the upright position does not work and also when I give her to my husband nothing works IYKWIM? Or when she accepts him then he could put her in laying position without any scream 

Last night was pretty ok - she woke up 1.20 am I fed, it took her 15 min to go back to sleep, then she woke up after 35 min - I picked her up, walk little bit, she did burp and went back to sleep and slept till 5.30 am and her diaper was pooped.   She is in very good mood.

Sorry I am constantly writing novels and repeating some things .... 

[tweetie]

Update - we returned back to two naps and her nights are improving and regular EW is back. Definitely built up OT was one of the problems. Last two nights no signs of screaming or long hysteric wakings so I really really hope that last week was the consequence of her OT from cold and short pm nap. I will keep an eye on her ear and reflux, thank you very much Bec, I appreciate it. In the case it will happen again I will take her to paed. Now I need to work now on 2-1 transition - I am exploring and reading nap board  .