6.5 mos old sleep mess-still

[*Kara*]

Put her to bed at 630pm.  Just keep things super low key as best you can hun... nice long relaxing bath too

[jcsmom]

Thanks! We tried for a catnap 2 hours after her nap but she wanted none of it. She just rolled and coo'd then got mad. We also went for a nice long walk and no nap. She went down without a fight at 6:30! I am assuming we will get an EW from such a long A time before bed.

[jcsmom]

She STTN from 6:40-6:15!!!
E 6:30
S 9:05-10:25!!!!!!!!!!! longest nap she's had in a while. I am going to aim for second nap at 1:30. It's 1pm and she seems fine. Not fussy at all.

So Kara what do you think about setting naps? What would I aim for in terms of nap time and bedtime etc. I really think this would help.

ETA
S 1:30-2:45!!!! The best naps she has had in forever and ever and ever.

[*Kara*]

Oh hun - this is the best news of the day for sure!!!

I think she is on the road to recovery... her nap in the AM was good, PM was a touch OT but that is to be expected for the first few days of a new routine.. either way, it wasn't a horrible nap at all!


I would keep the times as close to 9am and 130pm given her day   Try to keep BT at 630pm... if she pulls a 2 hr PM nap for you, try to go for 7pm...

[jcsmom]

I spoke too soon. Last night was awful. We had to go out and were hoping she'd have a small cn in the car so we didn't get her down until 6:45. She was up from 9:45-11, sleep cries at 1 and 3 and up from 4-5:30. And up for the day at 7
My dh put her down at 9 as she was so fussy and she slept 29 mins. It's now 1.5 later and she's miserable.

So yesterday afternoon's nap was OT? I thought shorter than 1.5 meant UT? Was she OT for her AM nap too?
I have to be careful with bt as she will do 12 hrs max straight at night. If I shift it foward and she has nws she will "sleep in" and do 13 hours but then super short nap all day. So I have to watch her time in bed.
I am so disappointed today as things were going well.

[*Kara*]

It will take a good week of consistency to know if this is going to work for her... so push on.

We had to go out and were hoping she'd have a small cn in the car so we didn't get her down until 6:45. She was up from 9:45-11, sleep cries at 1 and 3 and up from 4-5:30. And up for the day at 7

Horrible OT for sure.  Honestly, unless you are able to stay home and keep things on track for a good week, this won't work.  Set naps require a set bedtime and OT will happen so you have to be flexible enough to keep her home with very low key activity to get her through.  Adding a catnap in the middle of using set naps will completely negate any progress in terms of resetting her body clock (which is what set naps/BT are for).  If you can't commit to at least a week, don't bother right now cause it won't work.

If you need her to be flexible in terms of sleep, you may have to just follow her lead and allow shorter naps throughout the day (which can totally work so long as you keep her A times suitable).

Nap this morning was OT for sure...

[jcsmom]

It was OT after only 2 hours A? How could I have prevented that?

I can commit for at least a week, I can commit forever. I stay home anyway because I cannot get her into any sort of routine so I never know when she is going to sleep.

Ok, I can do this, I just need guidance. What am I aiming for again? I am not following A times just set nap and bedtimes/morning wake up times? What are they again? I am so tired I am having trouble figuring this out. Sorry if I seem like a dunce!

[jcsmom]

Hi again,
This EASY thing is just not easy! Yesterday was totally off due to the first nap being at 2 hours A and OT?? and we added a catnap and she slept 7-7. This is where I get confused. I know she can't sleep well at night (12 hours) and in the day. I know she can't make it to her normal bedtime on 2 naps. I know she can't sleep more than 12 hours at night unless she has a long NW. I look at some of the samples and I get jealous! 12 hour nights and 1.5-2 hoursx2 naps!

I get confused between OT naps and UT naps. This morning's A was 2.5 hours so nap at 9:30 and she slept an hour and 2 mins and she woke crying. Are under 1.5 hours always UT or are they sometimes OT?

I want to work on set naps and I am committed I just don't know if I should be waking her by a certain time in the morning? Sticking to clock times or A times? Ap-ing naps? It's 6.5 months in and still no routine!

[*Kara*]

It's 6.5 months in and still no routine!

This is actually very common - don't feel bad about it at all!  Very few babies follow a good solid routine before they are on two naps a day... there will always be speed bumps along the way.. between 5-12 months, A times increase very rapidly and it can be hard to keep up!

You don't need to stay home forever, just a week or so to figure out what her sleep needs really are.

If you do set naps, you do just that, you set a nap time for AM and PM and stick like glue to it... you can offer 15 mins early or 15 mins late, but that's the only flexibility there is... bedtime has a 30 min window to move around a bit... so, if bubs has a short nap in the AM, the A time to get to that second set nap time (even using the full 15 mins extra bit) can lead to killer OT.. which could mean a short PM nap as well and then further OT up to BT (since that is set too!)  The idea is that baby's body clock will regulate to the times sleep is offered... but, it can go horribly wrong too!

I am really tempted to use A times with your DD since she can be sensitive to OT...

As for OT/UT:

30mins - almost always OT, but can be UT if A times are far too short for age (mood at wake will tell you which it is)
45 mins - UT
anything around 1hr - 1hr 15 mins - UT  (this changes as baby gets older though and moves to one nap... then it's easy, anything under 2 hrs is OT).

If she woke crying after an hour nap, she was likely *almost* at the right A time before the nap.. she was UT (since she woke up early) but was crabby because she was still sleepy and just couldn't quite get back to sleep...

Knowing this - let's try a 2 hr 45 min A time in the morning and see how she does.  If she naps 90 mins or more, repeat and do 3 hrs of A time then PM nap. 

[jcsmom]

Thanks Kara. I read this after I put her down. After an almost 12 hour night and 2.5 A she cried off and on until 3 A (she never cries in the AM) then slept 26 mins. I don't get these under 30 min naps we get. Are they OT or UT? I get them at 2,2.25,2.5. Is she suuuuuper OT (but how after an 11.75 sttn?) that time or suuuuuper UT? You said yesterday her am nap was OT at 2 hrs A. So I am confused.
I think As may work but we need to find the right one and I have never been able to keep up with her As. She has started sttn since her total A time through the day has been 10+. A lot I know but it has worked.
So these 1 hour 5-20 min naps are all UT? If that is the case she will need over 3 hrs first A. Should I just try it? How could it get worse than a 26 min nap?
I am greatful for 11.5-12 hour nights though but the naps kill me. I have also kept bedtime 6:45-7:15 pretty consistently and that has worked for the most part. She does do 30 min exact naps (when clearly A is waaaay too long) but the weird ones just under or just over are the ones I am not sure of. Am thinking UT, I really am.

What if I woke her at 6:30 everyday so her nights are 11.5 or less? Is that just stupid? That way her AM nap could at least be set at 9:30?
We're getting there with your help. I never thought for a moment she would EVER sttn!

[*Kara*]

So these 1 hour 5-20 min naps are all UT? If that is the case she will need over 3 hrs first A. Should I just try it? How could it get worse than a 26 min nap?

It can   We had a few 10 min naps back in the day!

And yes, 1 hr 5-20 mins is UT.

I would give it a try, you just never know!

[jcsmom]

We've had 10 minute naps too. What are those? Super OT or super UT?
You said the other day that her pm nap of 1 hour 15 was slightly OT though so I am confused.
Today is a mess already with an EW at 5:45 probably from the cn and going to bed UT then getting OT in the process. She stayed in bed until 6:30 so what should I have based my A off?

I put her down at 8:35 (thinking 3 hours A from 5:45) and she slept 1 hour 10 mins. If she was awake at 5:45 that's almost a 3 hour A time how could she be UT after only 10.5 hours of night sleep (she took ages to settle last night)?

I am so confused about whether or not to do set naps Kara. I think her sleep is just all over the place right now and she is a touch OT. What if it makes things worse? But what if it makes things better?

[*Kara*]

She might be one of those babies who just doesn't follow the "rules" about OT/UT nap length... mine can be for sure! 

10 min naps are crazy OT and overstimulation generally   More common with bubs under 4 months when OS is super easy to have happen...

Set naps is a tough call.. it can really go either way.  If she handles OT well, then you could give it a try without too much damage... if she is touchy about OT, I wouldn't try it.  Ultimately, you are her mom and know her best... I can share my experience (and that of mom's I have helped with set naps) but you are the one who can see her face to face and know how she is doing with naps.

Her mood will be your biggest indication of her level of OT. 

[jcsmom]

Thanks Kara,
So do you think this AM's nap was OT? I am so confused.

I think she is one of those that doesn't follow the rules. She has to be OT but I just don't know how to get out of it. Her 2 naps aren't long enough to do just 2 naps and the catnap is making her tough to settle at BT and too long of a day so she is OT at BT. And she won't do EBT as she will only sleep 12 hours max at night.
Today went like this:
wu 5:45 off and on until 6:30
S 8:37-9:52
S 12:30-1:09 (tried to extend until 2pm)
S 3:45-4:25 (tried earlier so ended up in stroller)
bed 6:30 but not asleep until 7. So her total A was over 10 hours which makes her have OT wakings. I am sure she will be awake in 45 mins or at 5am

She is touchy about OT and touchy about UT. We just can't seem to get it right. She is a happy camper most of the day but gets clingy as the day goes on. I feel like 3 hours A is too much for her but on it, we've been getting the best naps. But the naps are still not stellar. 1 hour, 1 hour 5, 10, 15, 20.  Right now she is averaging 13.5 in 24 which I know is not enough. I worry set naps would just blow up in our faces. But things have never been good sleep wise.

[jcsmom]

Ugh, I am getting so frustrated. She was up at 5 am fed then went back to sleep for another hour until 6:25 then played in her crib until 6:45 so not even 11 hrs night sleep.
I really need guidance. I feel like I should just jump the gun and do 2 naps but her day sleep is so bad I don't want to make things worse. We were getting great nights now all the sudden we are getting an EW and taking forever to fall asleep at bedtime so she is getting less sleep than ever. I don't even know what A's to do now because it seems like nothing gets us a 1.5 hour nap.