Author Topic: LO is 22 weeks and still MOTN wakings are 3-4x night. Thoughts?  (Read 1452 times)

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stephanne2

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LO has yet to STTN.  Longest stretch (6 hours) was at 8 weeks. She's now 22 weeks and still waking after 4-5 hours post BT, then every 1hr, 40m to 2-1/2 hours after that. 

Schedule is:

7:30/8, DWT, Nurse
9/9:15 to 10:30/45, Nap
11, Nurse
12:15/30 to 1:30/2, Nap
2:30, Nurse
4 to 5/5:30, Nap
5:30, Nurse
6:30/45, Bath
7:15, Nurse
7:30, Bed

MOTN #1 (Usually 10:30 or 11:30, Sometimes 12:30) - I do not do a DF (that I initiate).
MOTN# 2 - 2:30/3
MOTN# 3 - 4/4:30
MOTN# 4 - 6/6:30

Notes:
 - We wait 10 minutes before going in at each waking to see if LO will re-settle.
 - All MOTN feedings are more like "snacks".  Nursing sessions last 5-8 minutes with first 4-5 minutes being half-asleep sucking (for comfort?), and if still going on past 5 min mark, there's 1-2 minutes of suck/swallow (after letdown?)
 - I have tried offering pacifier.  Usually she refuses. If she does take it, it will buy me maybe 45-60 minutes before she's up again.

LO's weight gain is normal - 14lbs at 5 months.

I am one tired Momma. And I fear LO isn't getting the healthy, restorative sleep she should be getting at this age, either. (DD1 was STTN at 13 weeks! So yes, my expectations may be a little high.) Ideally, I'd like to get down to one MOTN waking for a feeding at the very least, but can't seem to consolidate MOTN wakings into one.  Any thoughts? Suggestions?

« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 18:14:12 pm by stephanne2 »

Offline Erin M

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Re: LO is 22 weeks and still MOTN wakings are 3-4x night. Thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2013, 19:10:46 pm »
Hi there!
Sorry it's taken us a few days, the site was a little off.  Anyway, I think the first chunk of your night is fine -- LOs are all different -- despite the fact that your first slept long stretches early, that's not necessarily true for your second.  Mine all slept varying lengths of time during the night.  Without a dream feed, it would be reasonably for her to be eating twice a night -- if she seems like she's taking decent feeds and not just trying to get back to sleep by eating.  Regarding the second half of your night -- do you get good burps in at that first night feed?  Does it seem like she's in any discomfort when she wakes?  Any possibility of discomfort (teeth, food issues, etc)? 
From looking at your routine, I also notice that your LO's third nap is quite long for a cat nap.  I might try cutting it shorter (down to 45 minutes or so) and see where that gets you.  It's possible that with a 12 hour night and 3 long(ish) naps duing the day that she's just not tired enough to STTN.  How is she acting when she wakes up at night?

stephanne2

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Re: LO is 22 weeks and still MOTN wakings are 3-4x night. Thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2013, 20:33:31 pm »
Well for starters, it would appear as though our "schedule" has changed--again.  What I posted below seemed to be the new norm as it had lasted a good 4-5 days straight. But going on 2 days now, we're back to (3) 45-min naps and a 4th nap that never happens which is pretty much what our routine has been from about 8-10 weeks until week 20. 

And the longer 3rd nap seemed to extend her night sleep stretches from 1hr, 30-45 minutes to 3 hour stretches.  So I didn't limit that third nap thinking maybe she was just making up for lost sleep.  Must have been a coincidence though, because those nights with 3-hour stretches were short-lived, too.  ;-(

LO has never been much of a burper, actually. Even during the day, in spite of our best efforts.  We have researched/tried ALL possible methods with no luck. She never really seems agitated or uncomfortable, though. When she wakes at night, at first it's just kind of a moaning/whine that after 10 minutes or so ramps up to a full-on upset cry. So, I go to her, offer a feeding (simply because that's the fastest way for ME to actually get more than 2 hours of sleep at night) and she goes RIGHT back down.  The only time she's ever increasingly upset is if we go to her and DON'T pick her up/cuddle and/or offer that "feeding".

That being said, NONE of her MOTN feeds last longer than 5-8 minutes.  I tried weaning, but the first few minutes at the breast, she's more or less comfort sucking (not even fast-sucking to encourage let-down). Mostly because she's ASLEEP. She's back to sleep almost immediately once latched on. Sleeps through the entire "feeding".  And it's hard to wean because I can't set a time limit that works. For example, I'd start at 5 minutes, but she might nurse less than that anyway. 

I've tried PU/PD, but that only seems to upset her more. We're talking--SERIOUS SCREAMING. And shhh/pat has never really worked for us--even in the beginning.  If I give her a pacifier, cuddle her a bit and put her back down, she settles back down 25% of the time. the other times, she either stays up and "plays" or cries.  And the times she does settle back down, she'll be back up an hour or so later.  We've tried eliminating the 4th nap (when we were getting two long naps + 1 catnap), and adding back in a 4th nap when naps are short. We've tried EBT which has only seemed to backfire, with her waking up to an hour early in the A.M.  I'm currently extending nursing sessions from 3 to 3-1/2 hours to see if she'll take in a fuller feed, but so far it hasn't made much of a difference.  And we can't start solids for another 2-3 weeks because of MSPI.

I would be fine with one MOTN at this point. Even 2 given we don't offer a DF. But 4x a night? And without ever really nursing each time?  The last waking is often in the 6am hour, and the only way to get her back down (as with other wakings) is to offer that comfort nursing/feeding. But then she doesn't eat well at DWT. I just don't know what to do, you know?

I've been battling these MOTN wakings for 16 weeks now. I am tired, run down and on the verge of tears ALL THE TIME.  I feel like I've lost all sense of judgement and reasoning to where I feel like I'm no longer "in touch" with anything regarding LO and her WT's, naps, sleep time, feedings, etc.  At this point, I need a "plan" but am apparently incapable of making one myself.

And I really do apologize for sounding so bitter/defeated... I don't mean to come across that way. I am operating on VERY little sleep, trying to work with my DD1 (6 yr old)'s schedule, a DH that's unwilling/able to help MOTN because he works and a LO I can no longer read.   ANY suggestions you might have would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so much!

Offline Erin M

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Re: LO is 22 weeks and still MOTN wakings are 3-4x night. Thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 03:06:50 am »
Ugh, my dh was never any MOTN help either. 

OK, so let's think about this:
And the longer 3rd nap seemed to extend her night sleep stretches from 1hr, 30-45 minutes to 3 hour stretches.  So I didn't limit that third nap thinking maybe she was just making up for lost sleep.
My feeling is that you were probably right about this -- the frequent wakings could be due to overtiredness and that longer 3rd nap was helping to keep that at bay.  However, their A needs change crazy fast at this age, it seems like once you've got it, it all changes.  That being said, 45 minute naps generally mean that you need to extend your A time to get some longer ones.  How does she do with pushing A times?  Does she get overtired easily? 

LO has never been much of a burper, actually. Even during the day, in spite of our best efforts.  We have researched/tried ALL possible methods with no luck. She never really seems agitated or uncomfortable, though.
If she doesn't seem uncomfortable, then that's probably not what's causing the wakings.

However, this:
She's back to sleep almost immediately once latched on.
makes me think you might have a bit of a nursing to sleep prop issue at play, which means that if you're going to tackle it, you need to set a time you won't nurse before (like every 4 hours or so) and stick with it.  That also means that she's going to have to be asleep (even if you go through your time limit) before you feed her, otherwise you've just taught her that screaming and crying for a long time is going to get her fed.  Is your dh around during the weekends and able to help during the day at least?  My advice would be to go to bed as soon as your get your LO to bed, work on the wakings, and then catch some sleep during the day while dh is (hopefully) able to help. 

(((hugs))), it's really hard to be that tired. 

stephanne2

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Re: LO is 22 weeks and still MOTN wakings are 3-4x night. Thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 15:18:27 pm »
makes me think you might have a bit of a nursing to sleep prop issue at play, which means that if you're going to tackle it, you need to set a time you won't nurse before (like every 4 hours or so) and stick with it. That also means that she's going to have to be asleep (even if you go through your time limit) before you feed her, otherwise you've just taught her that screaming and crying for a long time is going to get her fed. 

I wondered about the sleep prop... I've never nursed to sleep during the day--there's always been some sort of WT or activity period (though only a short one before BT) and have always put down awake. But I guess I have sort of taught her to be nursed back to sleep MOTN, huh...  Oy vey.  When you say "She's going to have to be asleep.... before you feed her"... what do you mean? Say for example, her last feeding is 5:30--are you saying we should or should not continue the bedtime feeding at 7/7:30? Or...?

Also, her WT's have been all over the place. I'd recently gotten them extended to about 1-1/2 (1hr, 20m Activity + 5-10minutes wind-down, nap/BT routine) and we were getting good naps.  I tried extending again another 10-15 minutes, and that's when the 45 minute naps came back and haven't stopped--going on 3 days now.  Should I give it another couple of days with the longer WT and see if she adjusts? I'm not really sure anymore if she's sensitive to OT--I don't really know how to tell. I've just always kind of assumed her lack-of-naps/NT sleep was because of OT, not because I actually saw/experienced OT signs, you know?

We put her down early last night because she'd missed that 4th nap after a day of 30-45 minute naps and we just couldn't keep her happy any longer. She was asleep at 6:40. Then awake again at 7:15, but clearly still exhausted. Fussed/cried (in between mantra cries and real cries to where I wasn't sure whether to go in or just kind of let her work it out or not. As soon as I'd get ready to go in, the calmer, mantra-like cries would start, so I'd wait. It was "fun"... HAHA!)  Finally got her back to sleep around 7:45.  She was UP, WIDE AWAKE at 6:40 (DWT is 7:30/8) and unfortunately, the earliest I can get her down for a nap is 9am because of DD1's schedule.  She was definitely tired/cranky around 8:15/8:30, so she may have been OT.  Took a whopping 30 minute nap. OUCH.

DH would be more help on the weekends, probably... but we also have a 6 year old DD.  So whoever's not watching/entertaining the baby is usually watching/entertaining the 6YO.  He's watched both before, but the 6YO misses her mama's attention and a lot of times, if I'm trying to sleep, she's brokenhearted because I'm not around. It's such a huge adjustment for her! (You know, if it's not one thing, it's another!)

Working on 3.5 hour feeds (since LO "gave" me some extra time to work with today since she was up so early) today and hopefully I'll carry that on through the night. We shall see!!   Thanks for the tips. I'm interested in learning more about your suggestion above... not sure what that looks like.


Offline Erin M

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Re: LO is 22 weeks and still MOTN wakings are 3-4x night. Thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 18:20:49 pm »
When you say "She's going to have to be asleep.... before you feed her"... what do you mean? Say for example, her last feeding is 5:30--are you saying we should or should not continue the bedtime feeding at 7/7:30? Or...?
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear.  I only meant at night time.  If it's the middle of the night and you're trying to settle her back to sleep without feeding, then you need to wait until you get her back to sleep (even if it's only for 5 minutes or so) before you feed her. 

45 minute naps usually means that a LO needs more A time and 30 minute naps usually means they need less -- but for me, it usually depended on how mine woke -- if they woke happy after a shorter nap, it meant I needed to extend those A times.  Crying generally meant that they were either overtired or overstimulated (incidentally, I think you're right and she was probably somewhat overtired when you put her to bed which caused your early evening wakings).

As for extending the times between feeds, it is hard when you're not getting good naps to push the times between feeds.  Is she generally distracted by anything - can you go outside or something (if you're somewhere with good weather) to try to keep her from focusing on wanting to be fed?  It's such a juggling act when you have more than one, isn't it?