8 mo sleep issues

[bestsmilee]

Well, we're back.

I don't know where to begin. Last I was on we were trying to tackle my 5.5-6 month old's horrific NWs. Things are better but we are nowhere near perfect. It seems to me that we are having some scheduling issues. When we were trying to tackle my LO's chronic OT I was consistently to up his A time. His A time now is about 3 hours. I was going to post a Q about how to stick to 4 hour EAS if A time is 3 hours and then S would only be 1 hour. I was confused on how this would be enough day sleep. Then I went to sample routines for 7 month olds (he isn't quite 7 months yet) and the A times there were between 2-3 hours! And their LOs had naps of 1.5-2 hours long. I have been able to put DS down for a nap at a little under 2 hours, usually when he's pretty cranky, and he will nap a considerable amount of time. So now I'm confused as to why it's been advised to keep increasing his A times when trying to fix OT?

His nights have never been good and while in the past it was advised to start the day at a set time (ie. to wake him up) I have recently thrown that notion out the window and once I did I was able to crack at his OT a bit. There was ONE day where he didn't wake up a mess and crying. That day was about 3 weeks ago now. Anyway, I can tell he's not so chronically OT now because he's more smiley and playful than he's ever been.

I am concerned though that the fact that he doesn't have a set WU or a set BT (I base his BT off his 2nd nap but have been sticking to an EBT for about 6 weeks now) is not helping him. I don't know how to stop the NWs. That's where we are.

It has also become impossible to put him back to sleep. So when he doesn't nap or wakes up early from nap - there is no sitting there trying to get him to calm down and sleep as he will start SCREAMING and I just can't bare it anymore as my ear drums feel like they will burst, oh and I'm afraid my neighbors will hear him. That's how loud he is. In the middle of the night, I can put him back to sleep about 50% of the time. But if he starts screaming, it's back to the breast.

We need advice over here!! Thanks!

[Erin M]

Hi there, sorry you're still having a rough time!
Can you post your typical day like this:
E
A
S
(or if you don't have a "typical" day, just two consecutive days).
What time of night are the wakings happening, and what do you generally do at each one? 

The sample schedules are just meant to give you an idea -- average A time at 7 months is 2 hours 45 minutes - 3 hours, so you're right in that range.  When you get to a longer A time, you would generally feed twice in one A time (or 3 times if you're counting solids) and then have a longer period between feedings -- they're generally able to wait for it at that age. 

[bestsmilee]

Ok so I guess it would look something like this:

WU E 7
A
E solids 9
S 950
E (depending on when he wakes) 11:10
A
E solids 1
S 2
A
E 3
A
E solids 5
Bath
E 6
S 6:15

NWs have occurred at 9, 10, 10:30, 11, 12:30...(usually one of these times per night) - because I used to DF around 10, I usually feed at this WU point.

Then there's a WU around 1:45 let's say - and I can just whisper go back to sleep or rub his back and he usually falls back to sleep.

Then at 3:30 (today, and 4:30am yesterday) he got up - I tried to comfort but then it started to escalate into a cry so I tried to feed him. Since I'm trying to wean him off of this feed, I took him off after 7 minutes. He went down in the crib easily but would start whining/crying a few minutes later and then has been up for hours. Eventually not even 2 hours later I need to feed him again to calm him down, and then he usually goes back to sleep.

There was one night - the last night of our trip where he slept from 10:30-7 - the longest he had ever gone! Needless to say, I was up all night checking on him (well actually he started to get up around 1:30 or so, so I whispered go back to sleep and didn't hear from him the rest of the night).  Then last week he went a 9 hr 40 min stretch between his feedings (he had slept around 8 hrs straight) and that was pretty cool too (he went from 7-3:30 about). So when these days occurred I tried to do exactly the same thing the next day, but to no avail!

The problem is though with writing out EAS - is that his WUs are never at the same time, neither are his naps. The durations of the naps are a gamble and so are his A times with getting him down to a decent nap. He also never falls asleep at the same time even if his BT routine is the same, at the same time. He just will go to sleep when he wants to. It's fine (although it gives me great anxiety as the clock ticks later and he is still awake), we leave him in the room and most of the time he will fall asleep eventually, but sometimes he will cry and we have to keep coming in the room. That's also confusing.

What do you mean feed twice during the A time? Can you give me an example?

[Erin M]

I know you said your day shifts around a bit -- is your 13 hour night typical or is it usually closer to 12?  (FWIW, I don't think I ever woke any of mine, I just let them sleep as they would -- but if you're consistently getting 13 hour nights (even with a waking in there), your naps would be expected to be on the shorter side of things. 

Have you been able to find a connection between A time and nap length for that first nap at all?  The second one would be a bit iffy if the length of the first nap changes -- how's he waking from naps -- I know you said it's impossible to extend -- is he happy when he first wakes and gets mad when you try to get him back to sleep or does he wake crying? 

What were your indicators that he was ready to drop the night feed?  He might just not be ready to do without -- wouldn't be all that unusual, I know that 2 out of my 3 were still needing a dream feed and a night feed at 7 months -- if you feed him and let him go the same amount of time as a "normal" feed, will he still wake 2 hours later?  Will he go right back to sleep and stay asleep if you just feed him? 

Feeding twice during A time -- happens when you get past 3 hours and your naps are longer -- so it would look like this:
E (milk) - 7
E (solids) - 8
E (milk) - 10
S - 10:30-12
E (milk) - 2
S - 3:30 - 5
E (solids) - 5:30
E (milk) + BT  - 7 (probably BT closer to 8 with that later nap)
You end up with lots of feeding at this age -- I think that's part of the reason why I waited with mine to do 3 meals until closer to 9ish months, it was just too much of a pain to get it all in and milk is much more important anyway.  You also realize that you lose the EAS and move to more of an EAES or EASEAE.   You can also change it up a little and do something like this:
WU/E (milk) - 7
E (solids) - 8
S - 10:30-12
E (milk) - 12
S - 3-4
E (milk) - 4
E (solids) - 5
E (milk)/BT - 7
I tended to end up with a bunch of feedings clustered together at the end of the day as it was just how things worked out best.  It gets pretty variable at this age!

[bestsmilee]

Forgive me, I'm a little confused! Does 4 hr EAS completely go out the window at this age? If he's eating 3 times (2 nursing sessions) during one A period, how do I know he will be taking in enough milk at each session and not just snacking?

Have you been able to find a connection between A time and nap length for that first nap at all?  The second one would be a bit iffy if the length of the first nap changes -- how's he waking from naps -- I know you said it's impossible to extend -- is he happy when he first wakes and gets mad when you try to get him back to sleep or does he wake crying? 

No, not really. He can take a nice nap or barely settle, wake up after 30, 45, or 60 min etc. He most always wakes up crying.

is your 13 hour night typical or is it usually closer to 12?

Probably should have been clearer on this. His nights aren't 13 hours. For example, last night I put him down at 6:20 and he fell asleep at 7. He WU 10:30 (fed him), 1 and 2 (able to whisper back to sleep), and then at 3 (he wouldn't settle so I fed him and luckily he slept after) - WU 6:35 really upset for some reason. Shouldn't he be waking happy?

What were your indicators that he was ready to drop the night feed?

Hm, well what happened was that we were away and he had one terrible day and I was terrified to disturb him after we finally got him to sleep. Then the next few nights he would WU on his own to eat around that time so it may not have been the smartest plan but I decided to let him take the lead. Also, I was concerned the DF was disturbing him because it was never actually a "dream" feed because he would always wake up the moment I touched him.

Wait, that EAS (or EAES...) routine you posted is that for a 7 mo? Or an older baby?

We were off to a pretty good start this morning but then the gardeners came to trim the trees and woke up LO after 15 minutes and would not go back to sleep. After an hour 15 min of trying to go back to sleep (and 3.5 since his 1st feed) I decided to feed him (since 4 hr EAS not so important anymore?? confused mommy!) and the plan was to put him to sleep in an hour. Now he is happily sleeping while eating.  No idea how to gauge the next nap now...

[Erin M]

Forgive me, I'm a little confused! Does 4 hr EAS completely go out the window at this age? If he's eating 3 times (2 nursing sessions) during one A period, how do I know he will be taking in enough milk at each session and not just snacking?

Well, pretty much.  As long as you're not nursing to sleep, you'll find that in order to keep your A time long enough to get good naps (which pretty much throws your 4 hours out the window since 3 hours A time + 2 hour nap = 5 hours!) and avoid snacking (you're still essentially only feeding 4 times during the day since solids aren't much for calories at this age anyway, more just for practice and entertainment!) your EASY gets kind of scrambled.  And, in another 5ish months, you'll be close to 1 nap (if not there already) so you're totally on EAESAEAE then!

The sample was for a baby that could do 3.5 hours of A time -- which would probably be in the 8-10 month range (have you seen this: Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?" ) -- babies are very different at this age, it's hard to find one schedule that would fit all of them, so it's really a range and finding what works for your LO. 

That being said, is it possible that he's overstimulated before naps and that's what's got him crying when he wakes?  And, rereading, it could be that you're right and he does need a little less A time -- especially from looking at this:

I have been able to put DS down for a nap at a little under 2 hours, usually when he's pretty cranky, and he will nap a considerable amount of time. So now I'm confused as to why it's been advised to keep increasing his A times when trying to fix OT?

Pushing through those longer A times in order to get longer naps and get rid of the OT is definitely one way that could have helped you originally (forgive me, I didn't see your original thread so I could be oversimplifying) -- but it's totally possible that you might need to dial back the A time a little bit and that might sort out things for you too.  It's really hard to know when we're not right there. 

What's his temperament?  Honestly, some babies just don't wake happy until they're a little older.  Has he ever woken happy? 

[bestsmilee]

What's his temperament?  Honestly, some babies just don't wake happy until they're a little older.  Has he ever woken happy? 

Touchy/textbook. He has woken happy, just not very often. It's 99% of the time crying or whining.

As long as you're not nursing to sleep,

Except it does happen. He does not need to eat to fall asleep which is great but if his nap was terrible he will sometimes fall asleep nursing (like this morning). And sometimes at the bedtime feed, if he's really tired, he will fall asleep even if I try to keep him up because once I take him off to put him down he often becomes wide awake and doesn't settle for much longer!

[Erin M]

Quote from: Erin M on Today at 02:10:14 PM
As long as you're not nursing to sleep,

Except it does happen. He does not need to eat to fall asleep which is great but if his nap was terrible he will sometimes fall asleep nursing (like this morning). And sometimes at the bedtime feed, if he's really tired, he will fall asleep even if I try to keep him up because once I take him off to put him down he often becomes wide awake and doesn't settle for much longer!

That's the truth.  As long as he's not making a habit of it, it's fine.

What kind of a winddown are you doing before naps/bed?

[bestsmilee]

What kind of a winddown are you doing before naps/bed?

For naps - diaper change, go into dark bedroom, walk around for a little bit and PD. For BT - bath, pajamas, feed, a story, 3 songs, and then leave the room.

As long as he's not making a habit of it, it's fine.

I'm worried because it's been happening more frequently since he will likely resist his afternoon nap and then be exhausted and it will be time to eat and he will fall asleep nursing.

[bestsmilee]

I don't know what is going on. He doesn't seem to be teething so I don't think it's that. He seems to have been digressing in the sleep department and I can't seem to fix it. I've been trying early BT but it hasn't been working. I usually PD between 6:20-6:30 but he can stay awake in the crib for up to an hour before falling asleep. Some nights he will cry on and off until he falls asleep - other time he won't and we can leave him in the room by himself to fall asleep. Last night was pretty bad and resulted in a before 6am WU. Needless to say, the whole day was terrible and he was fussy and cranky the whole time. I once read on a sticky here that I should try a 5:30pm BT if he's OT. So I tried that. Did last feed at 5 then PD at 5:30 (no bath tonight). It is now 7:45pm and he is still awake. He hasn't been crying the whole time - just on and off. I tried when he wasn't crying to give him another feed but he barely took anything and basically just stared at me. Whenever we go in the room when he is crying or whines he looks up and smiles at us. I am so perplexed. Will my LO ever sleep again?! He must be so OT!

And any insight to why sometimes he ends up SCREAMING (!!!!) when we try to put him BACK to sleep. He calms down when we leave the bedroom and walk around with him. No sitting or anything else. My ears are hurting! Why is he screaming!?

[Erin M]

What about discomfort -- teeth, new foods, temperature?  Change of seasons/allergy-type stuff?  That behavior sounds like something is bothering him -- and I'd say he either doesn't sound tired enough when you're putting him down (though I understand that he sounds like he's getting OT from the overall lack of sleep) or that something is keeping him from falling asleep. 

[bestsmilee]

If anything, my gut tells me he's screaming because he's so tired. But I keep looking for other reasons - no teeth, his body doesn't feel cold or warm...he is starting new foods slowly but I don't know if they are the culprits. As far as allergies - he doesn't have a runny nose and can breathe fine.

I'd say he either doesn't sound tired enough when you're putting him down

It seems that way, I know. But no matter if he woke up from a short nap at 4, or his nap at 2, he still doesn't fall asleep soon after we put him down. He does have a few stuffed animals in his crib as his lovies, do you think I should remove them? He sometimes falls asleep while he plays with them or hugs them. I wish I knew what is keeping him from sleeping!

[Erin M]

He does have a few stuffed animals in his crib as his lovies, do you think I should remove them?

Mine haven't ever had a problem with them, but who knows?  Might be worth a shot. 

Does he take the same amount of time to fall asleep after you put him down regardless of the A time leading up to bed? 

[bestsmilee]

Does he take the same amount of time to fall asleep after you put him down regardless of the A time leading up to bed? 

For the most part, I guess.

What went wrong here? Friday and Saturday we got pretty good naps in but still resulted in NWs...

Friday
WU 6 (considering this and EW)
E 7
A
E solids 8:30
S 8:55-10:30
E 11
A
E solids 12
A
S 1:30-2:30
E 3
A
E solids 4
Bath 5:45
E 6
PD 6:20
Finally fell asleep at 7:10
NWs pretty frequently but only did feedings at 9:30 and 3:30

Saturday
WU 6 (again considering it an EW)
E 7
A
E solids 8
S 8:45-10:00
A
E 11
A
E solids 12
A
S 12:30-2:30
E 2:45
A
E solids 4
A
E 5:45 but fell asleep nursing so was really awake after his feeding session (even if he only did nap 5 minutes)
PD 6:15
Finally fell asleep at 7:45 (!!)
NWs again...
Now it's Sunday and he got up at 6:15 and his naps and not really happening today. I'm so beyond confused.
I should add though that the NWs haven't been screaming NWs those 2 nights but I wouldn't say that they've completely stopped either.
If he's waking from any type of discomfort it's not so obvious (unless he's soaked through-where we change him immediately) and I'm not sure where to begin.

[Erin M]

Has he always seemed to need the longer A before bed or is that just recent?  I know you're putting him down much earlier than he's falling asleep, which is making me wonder if you're really late on his window and he's just OT then?  I'm really not quite sure to be honest.  Your A times are pretty varied throughout the day as well -- and some babies need that and some don't do well with it at all -- wondering if you can shift some and get more consistent A times?  But you were worried about OT naps as well, right?  Hmm...I think I'm just talking in circles here, really I'm just thinking out loud.