8 mo sleep issues

[bestsmilee]

Hm, I guess that makes sense. We went to the grocery store this morning but I made sure to get home at least an hour before his next nap - but I guess he's still OS because he is bouncy around his crib like he is an acrobat! I don't know how to tweak the last A time unless I'm putting him to bed at like 4-5pm! That seems absurdly early. 6pm is already an hour earlier than when he used to go to sleep. He is going to fall asleep nursing when I feed him next because he is currently not napping. This is becoming a habit and I want it to stop before it gets worse. Yesterday he napped on the breast for 20 minutes but on Sunday it was an hour. I don't know what today's will look like and how I could tweak the A time before bed so he settles easier.

Even yesterday only napping 20 min in the afternoon I did WD/BT at around 3 hr 20 min A time after that nap. I added a 10 min walk around the room to see if that would help settle him. I got no results. (And the previous day I rocked him while telling the stories and songs and that didn't help either). I'd love to find a way to just relax my DS. It also seems that the last few days I can't get him down for his 2nd nap after 3 hours A time and it seems to be messing things up with BT. (But there was an EAS I posted once with 2 good naps but he still didn't settle to sleep?)

Update: He was falling asleep nursing but the obscenely loud gardeners popped on by and woke him up. I finished feeding him and tried to put him down for a nap - he is just as hyper as before. So by BT he will have been awake since 11am. 

[Erin M]

Have I asked -- do you have any reliable way to get him to take a decent nap -- car seat, stroller, etc?  I'm thinking that if you can APOP a decent nap in the afternoon, it would get you to a reasonably bed time.  I totally get what you mean about not wanting to put him to bed ridiculously early.

[katie80]

Hi hon, just popping on to offer some encouragement and an extra pair of eyes. I think it sounds like a combination of OT, possibly OS, and developmental issues going on. Although, I did wonder reading through if there are any discomfort/intolerance issues, as you've worked so hard and never had good nights.

Anyway, in your last post, you mentioned that there was an EAS with good naps and he still didn't settle, I think the last A was still too long at that point. My DD was a bit touchy with her sleep window and always liked her last A to be shortest. I wondered reading through if your DS might be similar.

Would you post your last few days' EAS to take a look at? Also wondering the same as Erin re: APOP...

(((Hugs))), I'm sorry this is still going on for you.

[becj86]

Hi

Just having a quick read through and your comment about 'tons and tons of toys' around him during the day jumped out and bit me on the nose. Basically, for a baby every toy is like a task - what you're doing by giving him loads of toys at the same time is like your boss in a bran dnew job giving you 20 different tasks and giving you no direction on what's most important, when anything's due, etc. That can be very overwhelming for a baby, as it would be for an adult - you may find he does better with 2-3 toys changed every 15-20min rather than loads of toys all available at the same time... it may help with the OS and him being hyper when he gets into his bed.

Also, really big tight hugs in a wind down can be very helpful in getting LO to release some of that hyper energy and relax ready for sleep - the body contact helps in some way.

[katie80]

Hmm, Bec's thoughts reminded me... I also wondered about reading 2 books and singing 3 songs before bed.  We didn't add books to BT wind down until both kids were around 1yr, it was just too exciting for them (and neither are particularly touchy).  I only ever sang the same lullaby, maybe twice or three times if needed, but didn't add other songs til they asked for it. . These obviously aren't issues for all babies, just some other thoughts on the OS side of things.

[becj86]

Agree with Katie on the books front - DS is 2 and we're just starting to be able to do books in his pre-bed WD now - way too exciting before now, though he's a spirited fellow.

Something else you may want to consider is increasing your A times just a touch - maybe 15 mins - and see if that helps. Babies don't tend to want to sleep when they're not tired enough and if put down when undertired, can become overtired as they don't yet recognise their own sleep window. That will come with time. DS knows what it feels like when he's tired enough to need a nap now and will tell us (so glad we put in the hard yards while he was little!).

[bestsmilee]

Sorry, didn't get around to posting until now.

Have I asked -- do you have any reliable way to get him to take a decent nap -- car seat, stroller, etc?  I'm thinking that if you can APOP a decent nap in the afternoon, it would get you to a reasonably bed time.  I totally get what you mean about not wanting to put him to bed ridiculously early.

Well, it seems that my DH can get him down for his afternoon nap, no problem. Last Sunday - Thursday, I tried and failed at getting him to sleep. Then DH was home early Friday, and Sat and Sun he was home. He got him down for a nap without barely a peep. Then today comes and he screamed for an hour and now he is nursing and looking like he is falling asleep. DH and I are doing the exact same WD routine. I don't really understand why he won't let me put him down for his nap. As for APOP - he only sometimes naps in his stroller but hasn't napped longer than 20 minutes. And now the weather is hot and it can be unpleasant for both of us to be outside. (He was hot to the touch after our last walk and that was when he was completely in the shade!)

Yesterday he had pretty good naps after a bad EW because of a loud car outside. He fell asleep during his last feed of the day and was down for the night at 5:40. He was up at 10:30 - fed him and he went back down. He was up a bit like an hour later I believe, but I think I was too out of it and DH put him back to sleep. Then he was up at 1:15 - I didn't even check the clock and just fed him later realizing it was early for his feeding. He didn't go back to sleep and eventually started crying/screaming until 3:30 until we were at a loss and then I fed him again. He got up for the day at 6:30 but didn't seem well-rested at all.

(((Hugs))), I'm sorry this is still going on for you.

Thanks. I need lots of hugs and sleepy dust to give my LO.

Last couple days weren't typical because we were OOT. Here's I guess where we were last week:
WU 6-6:45
E 6:45, 8:30 (solids)
S 9:15-10:35
E 10:45, 12:30 (solids)
S try to PD for 1:30-1:40 but for the past 3 days he's been resisting so he falls asleep nursing
E/S 2:15-3?
E 4:30 (solids)
Bath 5:30, pajamas, stories, lullabies PD around 6-6:15
can fall asleep anywhere between 6:45-8

Today so far:
WU E 6:40
E 8 solids
S 9:10-10:25
E 10:30
E 12 solids
PD 1:25 nope.
E/S 2:30 he has fallen asleep on me nursing

What do you recommend to do for BT in a day like today (which was Sun-Thurs of last week too)? I'm going to aim for bath around 5:20/5:30, then nurse and bedtime routine after that.

Hmm, Bec's thoughts reminded me... I also wondered about reading 2 books and singing 3 songs before bed.  We didn't add books to BT wind down until both kids were around 1yr, it was just too exciting for them (and neither are particularly touchy).  I only ever sang the same lullaby, maybe twice or three times if needed, but didn't add other songs til they asked for it. . These obviously aren't issues for all babies, just some other thoughts on the OS side of things.

Thanks, I wondered this too...but I've cut them out some nights and it didn't seem to make a difference. They are pretty short too. Takes me about 2 minutes to get through both of them. He sometimes can act really upset while nursing (only only during the feed before bed) as though he is so OT that he can't take it anymore and needs to go to sleep NOW - but when I do put him down he is suddenly WIDE AWAKE jumping and crawling all over his crib (and that's usually with a WD in between).

Something else you may want to consider is increasing your A times just a touch - maybe 15 mins - and see if that helps. Babies don't tend to want to sleep when they're not tired enough and if put down when undertired, can become overtired as they don't yet recognise their own sleep window. That will come with time. DS knows what it feels like when he's tired enough to need a nap now and will tell us (so glad we put in the hard yards while he was little!).

Ah, this scares me! Then I'll be revamping his EAS to 3 hours, right? Because then his E time will be in the middle of his nap? But also today I put him down after 3 hrs and no go, I tried doing 2-3 more WDs after but he cries when I walk around the bedroom because he knows he has to nap so I can barely do a WD again...and that's after 3 hr 15 min, 3 hr 30, etc...

That's encouraging though that he will eventually recognize his sleep window one day. I mean, it makes sense, but right now it's just so confusing!

All this effort trying to get your LO to sleep paid off in the long run? That's all that's getting me through this and being so dedicated is the thought that it will pay off in a few months (years?) time.

[katie80]

Then DH was home early Friday, and Sat and Sun he was home. He got him down for a nap without barely a peep. Then today comes and he screamed for an hour and now he is nursing and looking like he is falling asleep. DH and I are doing the exact same WD routine. I don't really understand why he won't let me put him down for his nap.

Did those naps happen at the same A times that you're putting him down for?  How did they go?  Are you starting to feel tense about putting him down?  I tend to be a bit more structured with sleep than DH and I know that when things start going haywire and I get tense, it just gets worse.  It's much easier the second time around than the first (and much easier said than done, I know), but it still happens some times.  The other thing I wondered is if he's starting to associate nursing with going to sleep in the afternoon and fights you for that.

WU E 6:40
E 8 solids
S 9:10-10:25

I don't think the A was long enough here.  He's close to 8mo now?  I think he needs at least 3hr, maybe 15min more as Bec mentioned. 

PD 1:25 nope.
E/S 2:30 he has fallen asleep on me nursing

So, what happens when you PD?  Is he relaxed during wind down and then gets upset?  What do you do when he gets upset... shh/pat, PUPD, how do you attempt to settle him?  He may need a bit more A time here too and that's why he's resisting, but it is interesting that he doesn't resist your DH.

What do you recommend to do for BT in a day like today (which was Sun-Thurs of last week too)? I'm going to aim for bath around 5:20/5:30, then nurse and bedtime routine after that.

How long did he fall asleep for?  I think what you've got planned sounds about right.  I'd aim for about 6/6:15pm asleep.

Thanks, I wondered this too...but I've cut them out some nights and it didn't seem to make a difference. They are pretty short too. Takes me about 2 minutes to get through both of them.

I'd just cut them for good, tbh.  I tend to think you need to do something for at least 3 days to see if it's making a difference and if it only takes 2min to read both of them, it's not worth it.  What's the point, yk, he's not really getting anything out of it except to maybe get OS.  Read and cuddle during the day and start introducing books at BT later.  Just a wind down, cuddles, and white noise are all that's needed at this age, IMHO.

He sometimes can act really upset while nursing (only only during the feed before bed) as though he is so OT that he can't take it anymore and needs to go to sleep NOW - but when I do put him down he is suddenly WIDE AWAKE jumping and crawling all over his crib (and that's usually with a WD in between).

Yes, that sounds OT and like he's hit his second wind.

Then I'll be revamping his EAS to 3 hours, right? Because then his E time will be in the middle of his nap?

Not quite sure what you mean by this.  Is he taking some solids?  You can move the BF Es around at this age to make them work with the routine.  You don't need to stick with a 4hr routine anymore.

(((Hugs))), your hard work will pay off.  Some LOs are just a bit more tricky.

[bestsmilee]

Did those naps happen at the same A times that you're putting him down for?  How did they go?  Are you starting to feel tense about putting him down? 

Yea, pretty much. He slept like an hour and a half each time! I don't think I'm feeling tense. I can put him down fine for the morning nap, it is the afternoon nap that he is refusing with me. In fact, today I was winding him down and walking around with him and he was looking like he was falling asleep and every. single. time that i put him down he started to cry. He was practically asleep in my arms. His eyes were closed. I did it like 10 times and he would start to cry and scream as I tried to put him down. I am about to nurse him and he will likely fall asleep eating again. Right now he is screaming on my lap. What am I to do when he just won't be put down and won't stop crying when I just have to do other things?? I don't want to just leave him! (It seems like this is the only time of day I get to post - when I'm anchored to the couch because he's fallen asleep nursing.)

I don't think the A was long enough here.  He's close to 8mo now?  I think he needs at least 3hr, maybe 15min more as Bec mentioned. 

But isn't that a good nap length? He's been going to nap around 9:10 every day and napping about 1 hr 20-30 minutes. And I just don't understand when I'm supposed to feed him if his E time is 45 min into his nap. I wouldn't know how to gauge when to wake him to eat (if he sleeps that long).

So, what happens when you PD?  Is he relaxed during wind down and then gets upset?  What do you do when he gets upset... shh/pat, PUPD, how do you attempt to settle him?  He may need a bit more A time here too and that's why he's resisting, but it is interesting that he doesn't resist your DH.

Sometimes he's upset during WD but I don't have any tricks to calm him down. If he's upset in the crib DH can rub his back and he will apparently fall asleep. Half the time he won't let me do that. He won't let me roll him on his side, he will just scream and scream until I pick him up. He is not good with PUPD - he hates it. I can't seem to find any way to settle him unless I carry him out of the room. I feel like he doesn't resist DH because DH can't feed him but that's not helpful because he isn't here during the week to put him to sleep!

Just a wind down, cuddles, and white noise are all that's needed at this age, IMHO.

I'll try that. He doesn't sit still for cuddles though. He is usually hyper and tries to get away and look around. Part of the OS. Seriously, I need to find a way to just relax him.

Not quite sure what you mean by this.  Is he taking some solids?  You can move the BF Es around at this age to make them work with the routine.  You don't need to stick with a 4hr routine anymore.

I want to stay as structured as possible even with allowing some flexibility in his routine but I'm not sure how to do that if he gets off 4 hr EAS.

[katie80]

In fact, today I was winding him down and walking around with him and he was looking like he was falling asleep and every. single. time that i put him down he started to cry. He was practically asleep in my arms. His eyes were closed. I did it like 10 times and he would start to cry and scream as I tried to put him down. I am about to nurse him and he will likely fall asleep eating again. Right now he is screaming on my lap. What am I to do when he just won't be put down and won't stop crying when I just have to do other things??

Ok, so maybe not tense, but almost like you're trying too hard to get him down.   It sounds to me like it's almost a prop issue.  He's relying on you for help.  The fact that the A times were basically the same and he slept well for DH makes it sound to me like he's trying to use you to fall asleep.  How did you get him to independent sleep in the first place?  I think you'll need to pick a method of settling him and carry it through for a few days to get him down, whether a modified shh/pat or PUPD.  Yes, he will cry and resist you, but if he can do it for DH he can do it for you. 

But isn't that a good nap length? He's been going to nap around 9:10 every day and napping about 1 hr 20-30 minutes. And I just don't understand when I'm supposed to feed him if his E time is 45 min into his nap. I wouldn't know how to gauge when to wake him to eat (if he sleeps that long).

Yes, the nap length is fine.  The day I took that from it was only 1h15min, which is still fine, but I'm thinking if you pushed the A a bit and got a good 1h30min nap most days, the second one might fall into place a bit more.  Is he taking some solids?  I honestly don't think you need to worry about the E times.  You don't need to wake him to eat at this age.  He's an efficient eater and will get the calories he needs.  I'd only be worried about it if he wasn't gaining weight or was always waking hungry from naps.  Some LOs go 5hr between milk feeds at this age, because they have some solids in between.

If he's upset in the crib DH can rub his back and he will apparently fall asleep. Half the time he won't let me do that. He won't let me roll him on his side, he will just scream and scream until I pick him up. He is not good with PUPD - he hates it. I can't seem to find any way to settle him unless I carry him out of the room. I feel like he doesn't resist DH because DH can't feed him but that's not helpful because he isn't here during the week to put him to sleep!

This again sounds like he's waiting for you to pick him up and 'rescue' him, so to speak.  If you're consistent in settling him in his crib, he will do it. 

He doesn't sit still for cuddles though. He is usually hyper and tries to get away and look around. Part of the OS. Seriously, I need to find a way to just relax him.

Have you tried the tight hugs that Bec suggested? 

I want to stay as structured as possible even with allowing some flexibility in his routine but I'm not sure how to do that if he gets off 4 hr EAS.

Have you taken a look at some of the sample routines for this age?  There are lots of ways to work your EAS around feeds.  Here's a link... chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months

[bestsmilee]

How did you get him to independent sleep in the first place? 

If anything, this has been the most confusing because I've been doing the same exact thing for months! I go into the bedroom, close the door, walk around with him a bit and put him down awake. He used to just fall asleep on his own in the crib. I can try PUPD again, but in the past if I've already picked him up more than 3 times, he will keep crying and will not calm down after that. That doesn't seem like the best way to relax him. I posted when he was younger about him hating the shh/pat and once I dropped it altogether he started settling more easily. I wouldn't want to re-introduce that. I've tried a bit of music, white noise, etc. They haven't been working! Argh...

This again sounds like he's waiting for you to pick him up and 'rescue' him, so to speak.  If you're consistent in settling him in his crib, he will do it. 

I have to figure out how, though. If I leave him in the crib and sit by his side he will scream until his next feeding anyway.

Have you tried the tight hugs that Bec suggested? 

What are tight hugs?

I've seen the examples of babies between 7-9 months but I get so confused because a lot (if not most) of them have low A times (like 2 hr 30 min - 3 hrs).

I'll be gone tomorrow and the day after but hope to be back to post again on Friday.

[Erin M]

Would this work for you when you're trying to fit in feedings and longer A times/naps?  Tell us where it's not working otherwise and we can help you tweak. 

Feeding twice during A time -- happens when you get past 3 hours and your naps are longer -- so it would look like this:
E (milk) - 7
E (solids) - 8
E (milk) - 10
S - 10:30-12
E (milk) - 2
S - 3:30 - 5
E (solids) - 5:30
E (milk) + BT  - 7 (probably BT closer to 8 with that later nap)
You end up with lots of feeding at this age -- I think that's part of the reason why I waited with mine to do 3 meals until closer to 9ish months, it was just too much of a pain to get it all in and milk is much more important anyway.  You also realize that you lose the EAS and move to more of an EAES or EASEAE.   You can also change it up a little and do something like this:
WU/E (milk) - 7
E (solids) - 8
S - 10:30-12
E (milk) - 12
S - 3-4
E (milk) - 4
E (solids) - 5
E (milk)/BT - 7
I tended to end up with a bunch of feedings clustered together at the end of the day as it was just how things worked out best.  It gets pretty variable at this age!

Tight hugs = just giving him a good tight squeeze -- sometimes the pressure helps LOs wind down. 

[katie80]

I don't think you need to try PUPD if you don't think it suits him, but I do think you need to try to settle him for that nap consistently for a few days and see if it doesn't get better.  At least that's what I would do.  What do you do to settle him at NWs when you don't feed? Do you ever resettle naps?  Some LOs like their forehead stroked, some like their bum jiggled, some like their thigh or front of diaper patted, some like their shoulder patted, some like their tummy rubbed.  If your DH was putting him down at the same A times, he's likely tired then, so I feel like finding something that will help him settle without eventually feeding him should help.

I've seen the examples of babies between 7-9 months but I get so confused because a lot (if not most) of them have low A times (like 2 hr 30 min - 3 hrs).

I think there's a pretty good range from about 2.5-3.5hr, which your LO falls perfectly in.  Looking at the patterns of the EASYs you've posted, I'd say his ideal A time is likely around 3-3.25hr.  Take a look at what Erin has posted and let us know how we can help.

I'm sure this has been asked, but is he teething atm?  Have you tried any meds before the afternoon nap to see if that helps?

[ZacsMumme]

Hey honey, your advice is great so far...I'm just popping on to say hang in there! My 7 mth old is a little like yours with sleep ATM. I think we just need to balance our day right YK?

I did want to ask if he is showing any signs of tummy cramping or discomfort from the solids. Poops ok, not constipated? X

[bestsmilee]

Erin, I will try over the next few days to try to implement that new routine. Today it's kind of similar - he had an EW at 5:20 and wouldn't settle I ended feeding him a little at 6:05 but didn't settle then either but DH got him to fall asleep maybe around 6:30 and he slept until 8:05. I fed him solids at around 8:30 and nursed him around 10. He started drifting off while I was nursing him but I kept trying to wake him up. At 11:02 (just 3 minutes shy of 3 hours) he went down easily for his nap. It's been about an hour and a half and he's still napping! (Yay for being able to type with 2 hands because LO didn't fall asleep in my arms!) I'll have to see how the rest of the day goes (and I'm dreading the 2nd nap of the day...which will be a lot later today than usual because of the late WU) but I'm hoping that he will go to sleep at a reasonable time and maybe, just maybe sleep until at least 7am tomorrow? Of course, that's the hope every day!

Katie, it really depends. Sometimes when he wakes I can just shh or whisper "it's ok go back to sleep" and give him a gentle back rub and he will fall right back to sleep. Sometimes that doesn't work and we need to use the music but that doesn't always work either. It's really just up in the air. For the past couple months we haven't been able to resettle naps. It seems that once he wakes up, that's it. He is not going to go back to sleep. So I haven't been even trying recently and I'll just take him out. As far as teething goes, I don't see any signs of a tooth actually coming in. I went to the pediatrician when he just would wake up screaming at night just to make sure he didn't have an ear infection or anything but she said he is likely screaming from the teeth moving below the gums. I tried one night with motrin and that didn't stop his NWs so that was that. The past week or so he hasn't been screaming so much at night, but yes, he still has plenty of NWs.

Sara, yes, I know what you mean! I wish I could find a routine that worked perfectly! I don't think he's constipated...I mean, I can pretty much tell when he is having a BM and he doesn't look like he's in pain or anything. He isn't especially gassy either...

Thanks for all your support!