8 mo sleep issues

[bestsmilee]

Update: He napped for 2 hr 25 minutes! That is crazy for him! Is that too long of a nap? How will it affect his 2nd nap? BT?

[katie80]

Yay for the good morning nap!   Typically, at this age, it's best to wake at 2hr, so that you don't get a fight for the pm nap, but if he really needed it from the EW, then maybe it was just catch up.  Hope the second nap went ok...

[bestsmilee]

Yay for the good morning nap!   Typically, at this age, it's best to wake at 2hr, so that you don't get a fight for the pm nap, but if he really needed it from the EW, then maybe it was just catch up.  Hope the second nap went ok...

Ah, you were right. No afternoon nap . Just when I thought we could possibly get a BT without being so OT!! It's almost 7pm (he WU at around 1:30) and he is still awake (was just scream/crying but now it seems to be quiet...DH is in there putting him to bed)! When is this cycle going to break??

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs. Often with a really long am nap like that you have to give a decent next A and then BT is a little later if you also get an ok pm nap. Some people do a shorter nap in the car or stroller etc

It's so hard because the day gets really wonky

[bestsmilee]

Ah! I'm at a total loss!!

Yesterday went really really well, following a disastrous night with terrible NWs and yet we still had pretty bad NWs last night too.

Here's how yesterday went.

WU E 7:35am
E solids 8:30am
E 10am
S 10:30-12:30 I went to his crib-side and I think he sensed my presence and woke up (as per the recommendation to cap the nap at 2 hours)
E solids 12:45
E 2pm
S 3:40-5pm (yes!!)
E 6pm (no 3rd solids meal because I didn't want him to lose his appetite for nursing)
E 7:10pm
WD then PD at 7:35
Fell asleep ON HIS OWN 7:56 I couldn't believe it. I was sort of in shock!!

But then of course the NWs started...He woke up a bit at around 9:30, got him back to sleep in a minute. WU again at 10:30 but fed him. Then he was up at 10:55, but got him back to sleep in a minute. Slept until 2:30 but then decided to feed him (5 min), up again 4:30 and was rolling all over the crib and crying at the same time and kept hitting his head on the bars so I decided to feed him again (5 min) to calm him down. He didn't really settle until 5:30am. Then he slept until 7:40 this morning.

Last night he had quite a bit of NWs as you can see but he wasn't screaming. Friday night he was screaming and wouldn't settle for hours. I would think he was experiencing discomfort but I don't see any teeth coming in, his diaper wasn't dirty, and he wasn't really gassy or anything. This is where I throw my hands up in the air and go  !! We followed his A times to the tee yesterday and made sure he didn't go to bed OT and he didn't. Then why so many NWs!!   

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), it's so exhausting, isn't it?

That was really a great day though, and a super second nap when you've been struggling to get one, so try to hang onto the little successes when possible.  Sometimes, it takes more than one good day to see the improvement at night, so keep with that EAS routine, and let's see if he can settle into it a bit. 

Of course, there are always other reasons for NWs too.  It sounds like there could be some developmental stuff going on with all the rolling around the crib.  Is he working on crawling, pulling up to stand, etc?  How old is he now?

The other thing to note is that he is being fed a few times a night when he probably doesn't really need it, i.e. using it to calm down. Alhtough he is an independent sleeper during the day, if he's fed at a few NWs at night, there's a chance he's using that as a prop.  My DS was this way and I eventually had to start resettling him at all wakings where I knew he wasn't hungry to start getting a decent night out of him. It was sort of a long process for us, because he was teething on and off throughout all of it, but once he started settling wihtout being fed and without me laying him down , he finally started sleeping better at night. Just something to think about...

[bestsmilee]

(((Hugs))), it's so exhausting, isn't it?

That was really a great day though, and a super second nap when you've been struggling to get one, so try to hang onto the little successes when possible.  Sometimes, it takes more than one good day to see the improvement at night, so keep with that EAS routine, and let's see if he can settle into it a bit. 

Of course, there are always other reasons for NWs too.  It sounds like there could be some developmental stuff going on with all the rolling around the crib.  Is he working on crawling, pulling up to stand, etc?  How old is he now?

The other thing to note is that he is being fed a few times a night when he probably doesn't really need it, i.e. using it to calm down. Alhtough he is an independent sleeper during the day, if he's fed at a few NWs at night, there's a chance he's using that as a prop.  My DS was this way and I eventually had to start resettling him at all wakings where I knew he wasn't hungry to start getting a decent night out of him. It was sort of a long process for us, because he was teething on and off throughout all of it, but once he started settling wihtout being fed and without me laying him down , he finally started sleeping better at night. Just something to think about...

Yes, definitely exhausting!!

We were really excited about his good naps and easy BT, not to mention a happier DS yesterday but so confused about the NWs! I am trying to keep to the same schedule as yesterday but his nap ended after 1 hr 15 min and he's been cranky. He is refusing his 2nd nap now and I don't even get the insurance nap with a nursing session because this modified EAS schedule had his feeding 45 min before his nap started and now he isn't due to eat for another 1 hr 15 min! By BT he will be extremely OT and will have been awake since 11:40am!

He's been rolling like a champ for about 3 months now and has been crawling for about 3 weeks. Not puling to stand yet, though. He will be 8 months tomorrow (can't believe he has yet to STTN!)

I definitely try not to feed him every time he wakes up at night. I prefer once after his 10pm and before WU. I've been doing a slow weaning of decreasing the amount of minutes for a couple of months now. I'm at about 5 minutes but am afraid to do less because he would probably start crying if he was eating and I took him off?

Sometimes though if DH won't get up, and I can't get him to settle, I give in. I don't like it when I do it because I don't want him to use nursing as a middle of the night prop but exhaustion tells me to give up and just feed him. I know no 2 babies are the same, but when did your DS start sleeping better and STTN?

[katie80]

I know no 2 babies are the same, but when did your DS start sleeping better and STTN?

We had a break in teething from 10-12mo and I settled him for every NW except an early morning one without feeding.  I also had to have him lie down on his own.  He then started sleeping through except for that early morning feed, which didn't go til 16mo. . It's up to you, but if I were in your shoes (and I was), I'd try to start settling him without feeding for all NWs except the 10am and whatever other one you choose (probably around 5am).  I'd do it before he starts getting a bunch more teeth and is prone to have a couple NWs anyway.  But, that's me speaking from hindsight!

Did your DH put him down for all naps again this weekend?  Any reasons you can see that he might have fought the pm nap yesterday and not the day before?

[bestsmilee]

I'd try to start settling him without feeding for all NWs except the 10am and whatever other one you choose (probably around 5am).  I'd do it before he starts getting a bunch more teeth and is prone to have a couple NWs anyway.

That's going to be hard, but I'll try. Sometimes I'm convinced he's actually hungry. Also, in the times when I didn't feed, he would scream for hours and then eventually I would give in. So now when I see he doesn't settle almost right away, I feed him.

Did your DH put him down for all naps again this weekend?  Any reasons you can see that he might have fought the pm nap yesterday and not the day before?

Unfortunately, no. He was OOT this weekend. I put him down for the nap on Saturday and DH settled him to sleep in the crib. Sunday, I don't know why he wouldn't go down unless he was already OT when nap time came. I was able to gently bounce him in my arms while on the couch and he took a short nap this way (never did that before) but that was after much resistance. He got up from nap at 11:40 and took a short 20-30 min nap at around 4 and didn't go to bed for the night until 8:15. It was a loooong day...

[katie80]

I'd try to start settling him without feeding for all NWs except the 10am and whatever other one you choose (probably around 5am).  I'd do it before he starts getting a bunch more teeth and is prone to have a couple NWs anyway.

That's going to be hard, but I'll try. Sometimes I'm convinced he's actually hungry. Also, in the times when I didn't feed, he would scream for hours and then eventually I would give in. So now when I see he doesn't settle almost right away, I feed him.

If you aren't ready to do this, then you certainly don't have to, but if he doesn't have a reason not to wake, i.e. he almost always gets fed, I don't know that he will just stop, yk?  If you think he might be hungry, you could at least set a time limit (feed no earlier than 4/5/6hr; I'd personally go with 6 at this age, but you need to choose what you're comfortable with) and settle the other wakings. He might scream a lot the first few times, but he will learn. 

[Erin M]

If you think he might be hungry, you could at least set a time limit (feed no earlier than 4/5/6hr; I'd personally go with 6 at this age, but you need to choose what you're comfortable with) and settle the other wakings. He might scream a lot the first few times, but he will learn. 

^^^I agree with this too. From the consistency of his wakings despite all the other changes, I'm kind of thinking the wakings have something to do with the feeding as well. 

Here's where you're at (from where I can see it, I could be totally wrong) -- I've seen a lot of moms in the position you're in on these boards -- there comes a point when you have to make the decision as to whether or not you're going to resettle or feed -- and since you're the one doing it, you have to make the choice one way or another -- if you keep feeding him at more frequent intervals, he's probably going to wake at more frequent intervals -- and when you get to the point where it's more bother to feed him than it is to spend a few nights doing a lot of resettling, then you tackle them -- but it's something you have to be committed with to start, you know?  And don't feel bad for one second if you're not ready to tackle them -- lots of moms wait and just deal with the feeds until closer to a year.  FWIW, my ds who was huge and always HUNGRY (we're talking quadrupled his birth weight by 9 months) was down to the dream feed and 1 night feed at your LO's age. 

((hugs))

[katie80]

And don't feel bad for one second if you're not ready to tackle them -- lots of moms wait and just deal with the feeds until closer to a year. 

Yes, this.^^^ I'm not meaning to pressure you into it and don't want you to feel bad, I've totally been in your shoes.  Just saying if you want to try to reduce the NW/NF, I think you can if you stick with resettling.

[bestsmilee]

If you aren't ready to do this, then you certainly don't have to, but if he doesn't have a reason not to wake, i.e. he almost always gets fed, I don't know that he will just stop, yk?  If you think he might be hungry, you could at least set a time limit (feed no earlier than 4/5/6hr; I'd personally go with 6 at this age, but you need to choose what you're comfortable with) and settle the other wakings. He might scream a lot the first few times, but he will learn. 

For the past couple of months I've only really been feeding him once (occasionally twice) after his 10pm-ish feeding and WU. I've been very slowly decreasing the minutes he eats. Now down to 4. I gave him a 4 minute feeding at 2:30 but he was up again at 4:50 screaming. Scared that maybe 4 minutes wasn't enough to last him until WU, I fed him another 4 minutes. He went down without a struggle but was up 15 minutes later and continued to scream for an hour and a half. It was 6:30 at that point so I fed him again...

and when you get to the point where it's more bother to feed him than it is to spend a few nights doing a lot of resettling, then you tackle them -- but it's something you have to be committed with to start, you know?

I want to be able to do this...maybe I'll talk to DH about possibly doing it this weekend because its a long weekend and he won't have to worry about work the next day. But then little things get in the way like - we are doing a portrait session Sunday and I wouldn't want him to be super cranky the whole time. What should I be aiming for? One feed? No feeds?

lots of moms wait and just deal with the feeds until closer to a year. 

Sometimes I feel like I've given up because I still see myself feeding him through the night until he's closer to 1 year. But he wakes way more frequently than the amount of times that I feed him. What does that say? Will those ever stop? Soon? I know you can't possibly know the answer to those questions but I wish I could see a light somewhere...

FWIW, my ds who was huge and always HUNGRY (we're talking quadrupled his birth weight by 9 months) was down to the dream feed and 1 night feed at your LO's age. 

That would be nice! So your DS only woke up once a night and then resettled? Sounds like a dream!! My DS is on the smaller side and isn't a huge eater, but he eats nicely. I don't think he's super hungry at night but I'm not convinced he's not totally hungry either. I'm not having a huge issue with feeding him the one time (yet), it's all the other times he gets up. And all the times he won't settle. My DH had had it this morning after he was screaming an hour and wanted me to just leave him be. I wouldn't let him CIO, and in his hysteria he was flinging himself all over the crib and hitting his head and scratching at his face. So I held him down practically. It was exhausting. Looks like this will happen every night if I decide not to feed.

[katie80]

I've been very slowly decreasing the minutes he eats. Now down to 4. I gave him a 4 minute feeding at 2:30 but he was up again at 4:50 screaming. Scared that maybe 4 minutes wasn't enough to last him until WU, I fed him another 4 minutes. He went down without a struggle but was up 15 minutes later and continued to scream for an hour and a half. It was 6:30 at that point so I fed him again...

I think if you're questioning whether he's hungry or not, then I'd be prepared to do the DF and one other full feed for now and settle all the rest of the NW.    There's no point in reducing the minutes if it's going to make you question if he's hungry and then feed again.  If it's really a prop issue, then it's not the number of minutes that counts but having him be able to settle without actually feeding.  TBH, waking so soon again after being fed sounds more like discomfort to me than anything else.  Have you checked into things like food intolerances (either in his solids or in your milk) that are causing him trouble? What types of solids is he having? There can often be other factors in LOs who have never slept well at night.

What should I be aiming for? One feed? No feeds?

I would do a DF before he wakes at night and then one other feed (maybe around 4-5am).  So, if he normally wakes at 10:30pm, DF at 10pm.  But, again if you're not ready and you're going to be thinking about the photo session on Sunday, then I'd say maybe this weekend isn't the best one to start.

But he wakes way more frequently than the amount of times that I feed him. What does that say? Will those ever stop? Soon?

It either says something else is going on, i.e. some sort of discomfort or routine issue or that there is a bit of a prop issue.  It's hard to say if those will stop soon, but I think having a way of settling him other than feeding is a start.

And all the times he won't settle. My DH had had it this morning after he was screaming an hour and wanted me to just leave him be. I wouldn't let him CIO, and in his hysteria he was flinging himself all over the crib and hitting his head and scratching at his face. So I held him down practically. It was exhausting. Looks like this will happen every night if I decide not to feed.

(((Hugs))), again this sounds like it could be discomfort to me, esp the scratching at his face part.   I don't know that I'd hold him down as that may just make him more upset.

[bestsmilee]

Have you checked into things like food intolerances (either in his solids or in your milk) that are causing him trouble? What types of solids is he having? There can often be other factors in LOs who have never slept well at night.

He's always been fussy so I cut dairy out of my diet after doing some research. TBH, I am so nervous giving him new foods because it's really hard to pinpoint intolerances. He doesn't eat a wide variety of food at the moment. Do you think I should take him to the allergist? The pediatrician never recommended it, but I can ask at his next check-up so maybe sooner if it's really worth it.

So, if he normally wakes at 10:30pm, DF at 10pm.

He doesn't have a set time. Sometimes it's 9:30, sometimes 10, 10:30, 11:15...so on. Will waking for the DF disturb his sleep, do you think? (Seems like a ridiculous question, he already has disturbed sleep!)

I don't know that I'd hold him down as that may just make him more upset.

Ah, so what would you do if LO was going nuts and could potentially hurt himself? Pick him up? Sometimes that makes him more upset.

I wish I knew what sort of discomfort he was experiencing!