Stuck in a Night wakening/short naptime catch 22?

[Maria14]

Hi there,
Just to say I am in the same boat and just posted too re NW.
only whatever A time I tried I can not get decent length nap even if we walk in a sling or DD naps on my chest.when she was smaller she did long naps in pram/sling but nit anymore.
We have the same NW picture or similar only I don't feed at every NW
re first feed-DD isn't interested either and I did what you did too feeding her in the middle of A time but ut didn't help.to my surprise even if she takes a v small feed at 7am she still happily goes 3.5-4 hrs til next feed so I just do that.also as I am training her with sippy cup what I do is always offer it after first nap-it's only 30 mls of expressed milk but I suppose it gives her that little top up that she needs before next feed

Very tired and sleep deprived here too

[landscapelinz]

Hi!

Thanks for your support. Its nice (but unfortunate) to hear of others going through the sme thing! I have read your own post. The 30-45min nap thing was just like us at the beginning. I always used to watch for the three yawns and get her into bed and she would settle well. It took quite a bit of effort to ignore those yawns and to look at the clock instead. Now we are getting longer A times and longer naps (somethimes but not always - its still a bit of trial and error) and her sleepy signals have changed. No longer the three yawns - now its ear rubbing and eye scratching.

Thanks for your tip on the morning feed. When she wakes in the mornin she seems to be just too excited to eat - and no doubt too well fed from the night. I tried today just being content with a light feed and a top up mid A time and then waiting until her next A time thinking I would get a big fat feed into her but instead she had another light feed. She probably has a small tummy thanks to all my regular feeding sessions! sigh.

I am experimenting getting an extra nap in the afternoon which means she will have two longish ones in the morning and two shorter ones in the afternoon in the hope that she will be less exhausted at bedtime. That said, I have been trying to get her to take that last nap for 40 mins now (am watching her on the monitor in her cot. she is quiet, clearly tired and NOT asleep!) so we may have to abort mission and go for an early bed time instead!

It could drive you crazy all this! I find the sleep deprivation makes it very hard to make and stick to a plan.

Ah well, am sure we will get there. Good luck! Will keep an eye on your post.

x

[Maria14]

Yes,with the feeding sometimes even the second feed is light!mine is also too excited to feed in the mornings..hmm,I ve already tried A time as long as 2 hrs first thing in the morning,guess will need to extend on that too..and yes,the last nap is always a battle,I often give up ad it gets too close to bed time by the time I ve settled her but then she ends up with 3 hr A time in late afternoon..It's really difficult and also I guess the A time is constantly changing as they grow!

[landscapelinz]

If its any help I have found that 2.25 - 2.5 in the first A time is her optimum and gets her a good first nap....Had do do very gentle things with her like looking out the window or walking round the house with her letting her touch stuff like plants, clothes etc....

[PaulsMom]

Hugs to you both with all the nw's.

Yay for the better napping!  I found with my DD that she napped well until around 8-10 weeks and then would do these annoying 45 min naps that you could set a clock to!  I tried to extend her naps with a modified shh-pat (it was really shh-rub on the tummy since she was on her back) and it took until she was around 4.5 months and then she figured out how to transition without me helping her.  So, it sounds like your DD is learning how to transition between sleep cycles during the day.  with better napping, it will be easier to have a 4 hr easy.

WRT feeding and snacking..  around this age I found a couple of things... they get distracted while eating, especially during the day (hence easier to take full feeds at night), snacking can become habit... so, if you are not already doing this, try to feed her during the day in a quiet room, dim lights, calm environment, etc.  Hopefully she will take a better feed.  At her last well baby visit, how is her weight gain?  Both of my babies were small at birth and lost weight and were some what slow to re-gain so I got many a lecture about feeds, etc.  If she's on a growth curve and not falling off a curve, meeting developmental milestones, etc I would encourage you to aim for a 3.5 to 4 hr easy for feeds as they will feed more efficiently.  With snacking they will feed more often but often just get lots of fore milk and not enough of the hind milk which has a lot of the fat.

WRT feeding at night.  it's not uncommon for babies to take two feeds during the night.  I would aim to feed her if she's gone at least 3 hrs between feeds.  I know its hard because you are so exhausted... it's easier to feed her than to try to re-settle.  If you can have your DH help out on the weekend, that is great.  He can settle her if she wakes more frequently. 

When she wakes at night, what is she doing?  crying?

Reasons for NWs...  hunger is obviously one reason for nws but there are others....  teething.  With my two kids, I've noticed that for some babies, the movement of the teeth is more painful (e.g. my DS) whereas for others, its the cutting (e.g. my DD).  So, you might not see the bumps or that she's starting to cut her teeth but she could still be waking due to teething pain.  The other is the 4 month sleep regression due to developmental milestones.  This can take weeks to sort out unfortunately but the key here is to follow your usual routine and try to re-settle without introducing any new props.  how she is waking in the night may tell us what the issue is.

HTH

[katie80]

Just checking back in, you've gotten great advice from PaulsMom!  How are things going?

[landscapelinz]

Hi!

Sorry for long rude (seemingly ungrateful)  pause! I was just trying a couple of things before responding (and monitoring what her waking sound was so that I could answer your question).

Well, her waking sound was lots of 'grunting'. To me it sounds like frustration as if she trying to get back to sleep.  After several more nights of two hourly wakings I decided I simply couldn't function like this anymore and so moved her out of our room into her nursery and had video monitor plugged in on full volume by my ear! From the very first night her NW's improved! For a couple of nights she woke at 12 midnight and 4am, then she did 7.30pm, 2.30am and 7.30am!! Last night she did lots of evening feeds (8.00pm, 10.30pm, 12.30pm and then awake at 6am).

I suspect that some of it might still be her asking for help to resettle rather than hunger, particularly those in the early evening when she is essentially getting cluster fed but the randomness of the NW's in the night helps me justify that I am right to feed her and not try to resettle. As you say, she is BF at the end of the day. I have also taken her to get weighed and she is beautifully following her curve so that is something off my mind.

I have been really working on trying to extend her feeds out to a 3.5 - 4h routine to the extent that I have relaxed the strict EASY order if she takes a short nap. She is definately feeding better as a result. Alot longer, much less snacking. It has given me the confidence to allow her to have a small breakfast feed (she still just too excited to eat first thing, no matter how longs its been and how boring the surroundings!!) , then a small top up half way through her breakfast A time, put her to bed without the breast and then make up for it all with a big feed when she wakes up for her mid morning session. Its still a bit of hit and miss thereafter trying to space out the feeds. I am such a fan of the EAS order of things so that I know that any grumpiness during A time is not hunger. Its what she is used to too but I think we can get there.

Her napping is still very finely tuned. The morning and lunchtime naps tend to be  1h and a 1.5h, not necessarily in that order. Her afternoon nap is pretty much always short and her bed time is now the troublesome part of the day! I am not complaining as I am so delighted by her improved sleep patterns but we are clearly doing something wrong as she cries hard at bedtime and then often wakes frequently in the early evening. I am guessing therefore she OT and that this wont resolve until we have managed to get her a 1h type nap in the afternoon. I also suspect that there is a correlation between those bad bedtimes and evenings and those days where she has napped poorly but I am monitoring to see if this indeed the case. I suspect I will be back for more advice when I have established more of a pattern!!

As a final word, I have tried to relax more! I found that I was getting obsessed about it and sacrificing play dates in order to try and get things 'right'. I have learnt that there is no such thing! No matter how hard I plan, inevitably something will happen to disrupt things; the phone will ring at an inopportune moment, a visitor will clash with a time I am trying to get her down for a nap or she will suddenly take a long nap when she has a paid up baby class! I have talked to friends who I thought were having a peaceful time and realised that they are not!! No one has a smooth time all of the time. Some people just talk about it more than others!!


So in summary the trial and error continues but I am now in a much happier place!!!!!!

Thanks as always for your continued support

x

[PaulsMom]

Great update  .

Wrt the CN, at a certain point, both of my bubs started to fight it, even though they needed it.  It made for some rough bts until they could handle a longer A but then it seemed to correct itself.

I'm so glad you are getting out, enjoying your daughter and going with the flow!

[katie80]

Yes, it sounds like you're really making progress in true Baby Whispering, which is sensibly following an EASY that works best for your DD and you. It is a flexible routine, not a strict schedule, and it sounds like you're making it work.  Do keep us posted and ask any other questions that you have when you find a pattern in routine.  Well done, and keep up the good work!

[landscapelinz]

Hi all, thanks for your kind words!

Well.....we had one week of lovely almost sleeping throught the night. I didn't know what to do with myself - was able to complete whole sentences and think about doing something other than sleeping in her nap times.....

We even mastered our own version of shhh pat which is to simply rest a hand on her chest. As long as the cries are intermittent (a sort of angry mantra cry) then she will settle to sleep in around 5 mins. So bed times settled down into relative peace....

and then she learnt to roll.....

Argghhhh! Myself and hubby are walking zombies again! She now wakes every two hours after bed time through to wake up time at around 6am. She flips onto her front and after a while the cries start so I go and rescue, flip her over and of course she just rolls over again.

We are now on around day 5 of this and it has progressed from rolling to long periods trying to crawl. I watch her on the monitor as have found that alot of the crying (its like mantra crying - low lazy crying with lots of intermittent longish breaks) is her I think expressing her frustration whilst she trying to move forward. This will go on for a while (say 5 mins) whilst she humps and shuffles up the cot until she gets tired and settles down to sleep. Only if the cry escalates do I go and rescue with a flip over and a hand on the chest until she calms and settles back to sleep (always flipping herself over onto her side or front). Its normally pretty short - say 5mins to resettle her although I might have to re-rescue 10 mins later from a new tummy down position.

so the day goes roughly something like this: a morning nap of around 1.25h, a lunchtime nap of similar or a bit shorter. An afternoon nap around 4pm - usuallly a 45min cat nap and bed time around 6.30 (she normally wakes in the morning at 6.30 so I feel this a good amount of time to be awake and she acting very tired by 6pm).

She will then wake 2 hours later. We can normally resettle with 'the hand'. There will be other NW at 2 hour intervals say 9pm and 11pm and 1am. I find these harder to resettle her without a feed and cannot rule out hunger so tend to relent for least one of them and she will resettle straight afterwards. From 2am onwards the crawling activity starts, at 1.5 to 2 hour intervals. For these she is not interested in a feed, its me simply trying to upturn her or resettle her as described above.

The first few nights of this I was in a panic about the SIDs risk as she insisting on lying on her front. I spoke to a health visitor about it and she said there is nothing I can do and to try to stop her with wedges etc more dangerous and therefore just to keep her cool and make sure she practises her tummy time during the day.

She loves her tummy time and has a very strong neck and torso. I am not happy about her desire to be on her front but think there is nothing I can do about it? Anyone else had any experience of this?

As for the NWs, I am of course hoping that its a passing phase...she is now 24 weeks and so well into the 26 wonder week period ( if anyone reading this has not hear of the Wonder Weeks book then I cannot reccommend it highly enough for explaining those developmental leaps and the crazy behaviour it results in!!).

Do you think all this practicsing at night might be OT or even UT? I can post a more accurate activity log if it would help.

Any words of wisdom would be much appreciated!!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

xx

[PaulsMom]

Hugs.  Unfortunately if she's more comfortable on her tummy, there's not much you can do about it.  Is she rolling both ways?  My dd is now a tummy sleeper.  I put her on her back but she pretty much immediately rolls to her tummy.  Once they are able to roll both ways, I believe the SIDS risk decreases. 

The developmental nw's will pass in time.  Sounds like you are offering lots of time to practice during the day, which is the only solution.  Things will get better.

[katie80]

More (((hugs))), I totally agree. Both of mine started sleeping on their tummies at 4/5mo.  They were early rollers. I talked to our pediatrician both times and she assured me that if they were strong enough to roll both ways, then they were strong enough to sleep on their tummies. Wedges and positioners are definitely more dangerous. I do think the guidelines in the UK are to flip them back to their back until 6mo, but as I had spoken to our doctor and am in the US, I started settling my LOs on their tummies when they woke there, because otherwise I too would have been up and down all night. You need to do what you are most comfortable with.

The developmental NWs are really tough, because there's nothing you can really do for them. But, keep giving her lots of practice during the day and they'll go away.

[Violet's mom]

I am in a similar boat too!  She loves her tummy all of the sudden and sleeps great on it - however she cannot roll back and its terrifying to me so I am up all night checking on her... And she will cry to get one of us to roll her back if she happens to need it.   She always slept on her side. 

Do you do a dream feed at all?  Just curious...  Let me know how things are going!   

[landscapelinz]

Hi all, thanks so much for the replies

WRT the SIDs, I know she has rolled from front to back twice on her play mat but has not done it habitually so it is something I am going to get her to practice. I liked one of the play suggestions in the activity forum which suggested having rolling and sitting up play time during the day on your adult bed so that she gets a chance to practice where she cant hurt herself.  Its something however that is continuing to worry me so for the sake of £45 I am purchasing one of those Angel monitors which consists of a pad under the mattress in order to detect movement. I resisted the idea for quite a while worrying that it might turn me neurotic but have now decided it will be a worthwhile investment, particularly as she is not rolling both ways. Incidentally I spoke to a couple of health visitors here and they have said that heat is the real issue with SIDs so I am taking particular care with her bedtime clothes. I think sleeping on their fronts is possibly warmer. I Have therefore reduced the TOG rating on her sleeping bag and she is down to a vest at night.

In terms of the DF, I have not done this for a while as I am finding she wakes up naturally around our bed time so she gets a feed then anyway.

Last night saw her waking every 2 hours again although there was less crawling practice. Watching her on the monitor I am pretty sure she is just trying to self settle. She had a pedalling motion with her legs when she slept on her back. Unfortunately her tummy self settling system is crying! It is still that fairly low lazy mantra crying so I am still adjusting to let her cry for a few mins and am finding she goes back to sleep. Admittedly she wakes up a short while later and so it goes on but I have found if I go to her and turn her over it just wakes her up more and she flips straight back over anyway. Have half tried just a hand on her side or back when the cries get a bit worse but that doesnt seem to help her. I will let you know how I get on Violets mom!!

One thing though, I do find it interesting that when she was sleeping through (or waking only once or twice from 7pm to 7am) that was when we were having a nightmare trying to get her down to sleep. There would be hysterics from bedtime at around 6.30pm until she would eventually settle in exhaustion around 7.30pm. She would then sleep through. Now that this has passed and she sleeps straight away at bed time, the last two nights she has slept then til our bed time and then its been the two hourly NW's until morning. It is niggling me that maybe she has excess energy. But then if she has a tiring day, her naps need to be decent or she will be OT and presumably still waking all the time?. Crikey this is a minefiled!!

Any thoughts or experience regarding the UT issue producing these NW's? Am conscious she getting older so should perhaps start pushing her A times again. At the moment we are at 2.5h A time  in the morning which produces a 1h 20 nap and then its a bit random after that as I have found it doesnt take too much of a push after that (say another 2h30 A time) to produce a 30 min nap.

Is there any advice anywhere about when its time to drop the cat nap? Have been searching the site as am sure I ave seen it somewhere...

On the other hand, maybe I should stop worrying, continue with the routine we have established and hope she learns to self settle on her front without the crying!!!

Ugh, this post is really erratic! Sorry!!

zzzzzzzzzz

xx

 

[katie80]

Can you post your day in EAS format for us to take a look?  She's probably getting close to dropping the CN, but with here A times at only about 2.5hr, will need a little bump in order to get there.  I do think you could start adding 10-15min now as you're not getting a full nap right away in the morning.  Here's the link you're looking for on the 3-2 nap transition: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

It's definitely possible the some of the NWs you're getting can be contributed to not enough A time throughout the day, but I do still think the rolling is your main cause.  Start to push the A times to work on dropping the CN in the next month or so and keep giving lots of rolling practice during the day.  You'll get there!