Stuck in a Night wakening/short naptime catch 22?

[landscapelinz]

Thanks as always. Extremely helpful.

We went away for the weekend so naps and sleep routine generally were all over the place. Then I pushed the awake times a bit as suggested and hey presto, some longer nap times.....followed by 2 hourly NW's again! As I have mentioned, this seems to be the pattern - poor sleep during the day and we have a nightmare getting her down with lots of wakings in the early evenings but then only say one waking in the night (presumably because she is exhausted) or we have text book napping and then she wakes every 2 hours. Obviously its easy to say she getting too much sleep during the day but I think its because her last nap and awake time lead up to a 6.30 bed time and I am guessing this is a little bit too early. This is supported by the fact she often wakes an hour or 1.5 hours after bedtime and we have to resettle. Sometimes with a feed, sometimes without.

Here is yesterdays example. Incidentally she sleeps on her tummy 80% of time now. The other 20% she is on her side. She has still not worked out how to roll over from front to back (or likes me to do it for her!!).  Alternatively she may be crying in the night simply because she wants to resettle than because she wants help getting off her tummy.  I can normally tell from her cries whether it is a 'I'm going back to sleep cry' or whether it is an escalation and an 'attention me' cry! There have been no more nights when she has been practicing crawling thank goodness.

E/A 7..40 - 10.15 (2h35 A time)
S 10.15 - 11.40 (1h25 Sleep)
E/A 11.40 - 2.15 (2h35 awake)
S 2.15 - 3.50 (1h35 sleep)
E/A 3.50 - 6.50 (I had her in her sleeping bag at 6.30 and gave her her last feed and she fell asleep on me. Naughty I know. I aim to put her down awake and let her self settle but 50/50 she will fall asleep on me. The other sleep times she self settles - therefore whilst it looks like a 3 hour A time, its nearer 2h45). This is a common problem where she too close to bed time to have a nap and yet too far away from 7.30 to stay up any later. Any ideas on how to handle this better?
E/A 8.10 - 8.30. I fed her this time in an attemp to cluster her feeds a bit. Sometimes I will just resettle her.
E/A 12 midnight. Fed
A 1.50 - 2.30am. woke up crying on her tummy. Flipped her over and left the room. She lay on her back for 20 mins awake but quiet. then turned on to her side and fell asleep.
4.35 - 5.05am Woke up crying on her tummy. Flipped her over. Turned onto her side straight away and slept for 5 mins then woke crying again on her tummy. Couldn't swear she not hungry at this time (a.k.a couldn't face a scene) and fed her. she fell asleep on me after a half feed (i.e. it wasnt hunger)
E/A woke at 7am. dozed for 20 mins and woke again at 7.20. Got her up for the day. (today)

I have just put her down after an 2 h 40 min awake time and she has woken after 40 mins and wouldnt resettle so shows just how sensitive that first awake time is.

Any ideas generally? Someone gave me a great piece of advice the other day - that babies are not machines and you should not expect to put in a set input and get a set output back at you. I do appreciate this...but I still would like to help her get better sleep at night. She looks cream crackered this morning!

I am keen to perhaps try and get her an hour later bed time to see if this makes a difference but cant work out how to do it apart from that it will come naturally in the next month or so as her awake times and naps draw out.

Thanks as always!

x

[katie80]

Is she 6mo now?  I think I'd start settling her on her tummy rather than flipping her back to her back (if you're comfortable with it).  It still sounds developmental to me, along with being in the 3-2 nap transition and some OT at the end of the day.

I think you're doing right by pushing the A times and starting to move to 2 naps.  If you'd like, I think you can still do a CN and not ruin the day too much.  There's room for her to sleep 20-30min around 5:30 and do BT at 8. That would lead to a shorter night of closer to 10.5-11hr, but at this age that's normal until you can stretch the A times and get to two solid naps.  You can do the CN in the stroller, car, or carrier if you don't think she'll go down for it in the crib at that time.

What do you think?

[landscapelinz]

Hi - I think thats an excellent idea regarding the late cat nap and bedtime if required.  I was always a bit fearful of going to an 8pm bedtime but frankly she is waking up after bed time anyway so this way she should get some decent uninterrupted sleep, at least in the evening.

Yesterday was a good example of how that could work. After her first nap of 45 mins, she was then only awake for 2.15mins before she was clearly uncomfortably tired. She then pulled in a 2 hour nap, had another fairly short awake time of 2h 10 before she was practically begging to go to sleep. She had a cat nap of 35mins at 5pm and then a BT at 7.40.  She slept uniterrupted til 10.30 where there was a feed, another feed at 1.40am and then it was 2hourly waking from then on (4am and 6.20) but both of which she self settled at and which I can't therefore really complain about! She then woke for the day at 7.30. I think thats not half bad from where we have been in the past.

I will start trying to settle her on her tummy. I have tried before but she goes into skydiving mode (balancing on her chest with arms and legs raised off matress!) and doesn't seem comfortable. Flipping her over seems to allow her to settle on her side if she wants to or go straight back on to her tummy. Think we are both getting used to her new sleeping posture and self settling methods! I have the Angelcare monitor in place now. Dont care how neurotic it makes me sound, its the best £45 I ever spent!!

Again, thanks so much for this. I am sure you are right that she is just in a bit of a transitional mode and that we might jut have to take each day as it comes until she gets down to 2 naps. I deliberately have only given her a short A time this morning thinking she would have a 45 min nap and we could therefore go to a baby class this morning...but she is sleeping through (its an hour 20 now and counting) so it just shows you she is still boss!!  As I have said before, I am just trying to relax into it and go with her flow, very easy when you are greeted with that big toothless grin every morning!

I look back at my first post (she is now 25 weeks) and can't believe how far we have come. I am glad that the one week of sleeping through is recorded here and in my sleep diaries otherwise I think I would have  thought I dreamt it up! At least I know she can do it and we will get there again eventually!!

THANKYOU!!!

xx

[Violet's mom]

I love reading your post because I am in the same spot as you - kind of a transitional phase.  This week I had to work for two days and it really threw a wrench in things because little miss decided to wait til I got home to eat.  Yep, our 3.5hr EASY out the window haha but she is surprisingly sleeping well at night!   Last night she slept from 7:30 to 9:00pm (nursed) and then all the way to 3:00am (10min resettle by herself!) and didn't nurse until 6:45am!

It is getting easier now at this point.  Are you on your way to starting solids soon?

[landscapelinz]

Oh thank you! Its easy to forget that you are not the only one.

Gosh, that does sound like a good night. We played with bed time last night by having a third late nap. She therefore went down at 8pm. She woke crying at 9.25 and I fed to settle. Fed again at 1am and then she woke at 5.30 but self settled after a flip from me and then woke for the day at 7.30 so thats not bad....in fact thats pretty good now I think about it....and I think she self flipped this morning. Little minx likes to do it when I am not looking so that I spend the morning wondering if I was dreaming and that maybe she had stayed on her back since I flipped her at 5.30am!

We started playing with solids last week and the last few days some banana has actually been going in and getting swallowed. I suppose thats another thing to disrupt her delicate system.

How old is your own little minx?!

[katie80]

Sounds like some progress... keep us posted!

[Violet's mom]

My LO is just 5 months old!  She just completed a 45 min nap as I write this haha ...  now when to feed...  Doc told us to wait on solids so we have 3 more weeks! 

[landscapelinz]

Ah well, we did a text book day yesterday and then had a rough night. Check this out:

E/A 6.30 - 8.45 (really tired. Am increasingly starting to think this morning A time will have to stay shorter than the rest)
S 8.45 - 10.10 (1h 20 mins - its the new 45 mins in terms of fact can now set the clock by it)
E/A 10.10 - 1.00 (Much longer but just followed her signals. Feed her milk when she gets up and solids at around 12.15 so that keeps her up longer and she self settled nicely for nap. )
S 1.00 - 2.20 (another 1h20 nap)
E/a 2.20 - 5.10 (again milk when wakes, solids at around 4.30.)
S 5.10 - 5.45 (self settled nicely - 35 min nap)
E/A 5.45 - 7.25 (Bathtime and bed routine. Again settled beautifully. The last week has been screaming blue murder at bed time so we sink into sofa with smug relief, praising ourselves on our text book day)
E/A 8.45 - 9.05 woke crying - note it had been 1.20 since put down. Fed to settle. I know this is a mistake - I must just be reinforcing it but was so pleased we had got her down at BT without a scene that I couldnt face one at this time. Find strength woman, find strength!!)
E/A 10.50 - 11.05 woke crying. Fed to settle (I know, I know)
A 11.20  woke crying. Flipped her and she self settled. Possibly a rogue burp from previous feed.
E/A 3.00 Woke crying. Fed to settle.
A 4.30 woke crying. I flipped her and she resettled.
E/A 6.35 woke for the day - me and hubby stumble out of bed bumping into doors and each other, etc etc.


Well, dont know what we could have done differently during the day. We were pretty text book I thought. Am going to be firmer in resettling without a feed on the 1h20 min s later awake sessions. Any other ideas?

Am desperately hoping its the new solids just interferring with her system and that you are all going to tell me the same happened to you.......?!

xx

[landscapelinz]

P.S Violets mum - what a gorgeous photo!

[landscapelinz]

....since my last post really need some advice.

Today we had a similar day as stated on that day but she had woken earlier at 6.30am so the last nap was at 4.00 for 50 mins. She was alseep for BT by 7.15. Earlier in the day she had had an initial 30 min morning nap and a lunchtime 1.5h nap. I thought this looked like a promising day on paper.

Sure enough she woke 1h 20 after BT so we are trying to settle her. Hubby at this precise moment is trying to calm a hysterically upset baby. Awful. What would be your best guess, OT or UT? Its really very upsetting for all concerned.

Please help!!

xxx

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), hon.  My best guess is OT.  It is a bit strange that she's pulling the exact 1h20 each time, I don't think that necessarily indicates OT.  But, today she was up almost 2.5hr after a 50min nap and I'm thinking that is OT.  Last night, however, OT doesn't seem as clear (up 1h40min after a 35min nap, which sounds about right to me). So, I'm not a lot of help... sorry!

It definitely could be new solids messing with her system.  I'm sorry I can't remember... have you just introduced them?  What types of foods are you giving? 

Do you think she's starting to work on any teeth?

[Violet's mom]

Thanks   Yeah Violet's gone a little wacky these past couple days - today she took a 20min, 40min, 10min, and 20min nap - I'm at a loss!!!  She seems really hungry but I've been trying to do a 3.5 to 4 hr EASY but she gets really upset so I've been giving in so maybe that's why...  I think I might introduce solids tomorrow to see if that helps even though my pediatrician wants me to wait.  I don't know i am totally at a loss...  feeling your pain! 

Sometimes I wonder what the point of a routine is if she never follows it haha.

[landscapelinz]

Hi both

On the solids front we are on our second week of them. Have started integrating things like dairy but in very small proportions. She did give a couple of loud bottom trumpets last night when we were putting her down or trying to settle her but the fact that she woke exactly 1h20 after BT (which is presumably sleep cycle related) makes me think its a sleep thing rather than a innards thing...although I suppose if you are coming up into a light sleep and your guts/teeth are bothering you then it will make you wake up.

On the teeth front, her gums are really white but nothing showing through yet. The evening that I described last night was appalling. Must have been OT. She woke at 8.30pm. We tried resettling without a feed but got steadily more hysterical so I removed her from nursery so she calmed down  (she always stops crying if we do that) and then fed her and she was down by 9pm. She had 15 mins of silently trying to resettle (she now buries her head in the matress and wiggles about), gave up and started crying again. We try to resettle in the cot (quiet comforting hand on her back but our presence seems to make her worse) and eventually remove her at 9.45 as it is seriously hysterical and upsetting. I apply teething granuals to be on the safe side and she is in fits of giggles!! Little minx! (but phew, cant be in pain). Put her down at 9.55 all calm. She tries to resettle for a bit, fails and starts crying. Its slower crying though so we dont interfere (the bottom is wiggling so I feel its best to leave her alone) and she falls aleep for a bit. Wakes up at 10.25. I pounce on her, feed her and she passes out. She is then asleep til 5.30 for a quick half feed then alseep until 7.40.

So really dont know! I will watch what you says about length of A times after short naps, partic in the evening. Also, completely nod at Violets mums comments re routines. Sometimes it seems that no matter what you do, baby just not going to follow the plan..I repeat that wisdom that was imparted to me about them not being machines and output will not always refelct input. I sometimes look at mums who seem to have no routines and talk nonchalantly about their babies which sleep through...I tell myself they are lying!!

Thanks as always

x

[Violet's mom]

I hope tonight goes better for you!  I am pysched that Violet just took a 1.5hr nap!

Thanks for the insight - if it makes you feel any better my friend who does not "do routines" has been having a tough time with child #2 in the mix now - and her DS1 is starting to go through terrible twos with no routine so even those mums might not be doing what is best in the long run!

Sounds like you really know your baby so good for you

[katie80]

I sometimes look at mums who seem to have no routines and talk nonchalantly about their babies which sleep through...I tell myself they are lying!!

They probably are! Or, they have an angel baby that sleeps well regardless. 

You really are doing a great job and it's so true that babies aren't machines and don't always follow the same pattern.  I will say it tends to get easier once you're solidly on two naps and even more so on one.  Some of the rest of the time, you just need to muddle through and do your best.

You might want to keep an eye on solids... they do tend to affect some babies more than others.  I'd also encourage you to be as consistent as possible in how you settle her at those early NWs.  I know you don't want to be in there with a screaming baby, but if she's all giggles when you take her out, I'd be careful that you're not 'giving in' too early and becoming an accidental prop.