Stuck in a Night wakening/short naptime catch 22?

[landscapelinz]

Thanks both - and yes I am mean enough to be reassured when I hear of children on no routines giving their parents hell!! I jest really - I just dont think my brain could cope without some kind of routine.

Yes, know what you mean about us becoming a prop at the early NW. Its something I am worrying about. Her room is next door to the bathroom and we had noticed that when the shower is on it acts as a kind of white noise and sends her to sleep on those occasions when she is really crying HARD with OT and we know there is nothing more we can do for her (picking her up makes her cry even more these days when she has really reached her brink). I therefore contemplated getting a white noise machine for those exceptional occasions but have resisted. My man knows a 10 year old who still relies on a white noise machine to get to sleep but part of me thinks that surely if it just used when she has worked herself up into a tizz it is better that than me offering the breast which really cant go on forever for obvious reasons...I am still resisting as can imagine its a very slippery slope. Have you any opinions on this? I know I should do neither and do PU/PD but it really isnt us - partic now she often cries harder when we pick her up. She deperately wants to self settle in her cot and PU/PD would just be torturous I think.

Yesterday I took her to an afternoon play date which usually I would have avoided as it interferes with her afternoon nap. I was in one of those 'no matter what I do' moods. As a result she had a 1h20 morning nap, a 15 min nap in the sling when ordinarily she would have had her afternoon 1h20 nap. She then had a 10 min snooze in the sling later followed by a 45 min nap in her cot at 5pm. BT was at 7pm. She woke up at 9.00pm. I fed her and she resettled and then again at 2.20am and then was up for the day at 7.15am. Brilliant. Think I was justified in giving her a feed at 9pm. Could be habitual but couldnt be sure. I know it sounds appalling but my litle girl has always had a really small appetite and have always struggled to get weight on her. I dont really know what her hungry cry sounds like as a result!

Am going to work harder at extending that morning A time again. I think the problem has been that her nights so bad that she has been too tired in the morning to do more than 2.5h. I am comforted about your comments regarding it getting easier with 2 and 1 naps. Now we inserting solids, it would certainly make like a bit more straightforward for both of us.

Well done Violet on that 1.5h nap! I know its ridiculous but I still get all chipper and happy when Ari (my girl is called Ariana) pulls a long nap. I suppose looking after her wellbeing is my new job so its like being given a pat on the back from the boss!

thanks again both for replying xxxx

xxx

[Violet's mom]

I hear ya - I've been doing the same thing some days.  I still give violet a feeding at 8:30 pm when she wakes up - it helps her sleep from anywhere betweemn 4am and 6am which is nice.  So hopefully she will drop the 2:20am feeding for you soon!

I noticed violet has better am naps if she does down around 1.5hr after waking up - I know she's supposed to be up for 2-2.5hr but its really pushing it because she yawns and rubs her eyes after about 1hr 15min!  But the rest of her A times are around 2-2.5hr... trying to figure out if this is unusual or not?

[katie80]

My man knows a 10 year old who still relies on a white noise machine to get to sleep but part of me thinks that surely if it just used when she has worked herself up into a tizz it is better that than me offering the breast which really cant go on forever for obvious reasons...I am still resisting as can imagine its a very slippery slope. Have you any opinions on this?

I would say that's most likely the exception rather than the rule. . Both my kids sleep with white noise (small desktop fans in the corner of their rooms), and I do think it helps.  It doesn't seem to be a prop for either of them.  We usually take at least one with when we travel, but have forgotten on occasion and they are still able to sleep.  We've also had the power go out a couple times, once right before DD was going to sleep at BT and she did just fine without it, so I'm not worried.  There are LOTS of moms and kids on here that use white noise.

You don't have to do PUPD at that early NW if you don't want to.  In fact if she's really trying to settle and likes it even worse if you pick her up, I wouldn't even suggest it.  Just do what you can to help her settle in the crib.  But, if you're not there yet, that's ok!  And if you're ever worried about her not getting enough to eat, I don't think that natural little cluster feed will hurt.  It may turn into a prop, but you can deal with that down the road.  It may not too!

Keep up the good work!

I noticed violet has better am naps if she does down around 1.5hr after waking up - I know she's supposed to be up for 2-2.5hr but its really pushing it because she yawns and rubs her eyes after about 1hr 15min!  But the rest of her A times are around 2-2.5hr... trying to figure out if this is unusual or not?

I wouldn't say it's typical, but there are some sleep people who think going down shortly after waking in the morning does help them sleep better.  The thing you'd need to be careful about it some LOs I'll start waking earlier and earlier if that A time isn't long enough and you'll end up with an EW issue. 

[landscapelinz]

Katie - thank you so much for this reply. I found it to be REALLY reassuring. Sometimes I think I get too caught up in getting things 'wrong'. You bring me back to relax-ville!!

Violets mum - I have a group of friends from my antenatal class. Our babies were all born within 2 weeks of each other and we are all doing things slightly differently so it makes for a very interesting comparison. I asked them how they were getting on in terms of how long the A time would be before the first nap. None are following the BW but all have a routine of their own apart from one who is entirely baby led. 1 does 90 mins before her first nap...but sometimes refuses it and so they keep on going. Two feed when they wake and immediately fall asleep for another hour and then get up for anything between 2.5 to 3 hours. Incidentally one of these two has morning A times of 5.30 and the other is around 6 - 7am. The baby led baby is different every day...but they all said that they are different every day to some extent and therefore whilst they follow a routine...its a different one each day and I know what they mean! Ari this morning was up for 2.5h first thing. Really eye rubby...then pulled a 45min nap (but I think there was banging outside which roused her)...so that affected the entirety of the rest of the day. As we have said before, sometimes you just can't plan!

Not sure if that is any use at all. Oh, and I should day that all of the above babies have good and bad days as far as sleeping through is concerned...but I am led to believe all are slightly better at it than my little Ari.....

....wouldn't change her for the world though!!

xx

[katie80]

  You're doing great!

[Violet's mom]

Ok. Good to know!  She wakes at all different times but if I keep her up she only takes a 30 min nap, whereas if I have her go down at 1 hr 40 min, she sleeps 1.5 hr so I'm trying to slowly increase a times but what do you both think - 10 min every 3 days or so?  Would that help?  She does go to bed at 6:30 (soooo early) and wakes between 6am and 7am...

In regards to the other babies sttn better than ari - I'd say everyone likes to say their baby is more perfect than they are because to them they are perfect like ari is to you and violet is to me . I'm sure most of them are in the same boat as you and I but don't realize it - unlike me -I'm kinda a perfectionist type!

[landscapelinz]

Thanks both

Regarding increasing the A time. I find each day is so different. If she has woken up after a good nights sleep I will push the A time by 5 or 10 mins. We have a bedtime routine where we go up to the nursery and on the way we look out the window for a while and point things out and if she is still feeling awake she will reach out for things on the way to the window so we will go up to them and stroke/grab/drop things. So if I am trying to stretch out her A time it is this 'quiet wind down' time that I increase rather than her downstairs play time. Mostly it works but I have to say it has backfired on occasion and she has suddenly cried hard going down as clearly OT.

I also find its tricky as I wake up when she starts grumbling in the morning. I have no real idea whether she has been awake for a while already. Take today for instance. She started eye and ear rubbing after being officially awake for 1 hour 15. I couldn't be certain she hadn't lain awake for a while so she went down after 2 hours official A time. So far she has been asleep for an hour and counting so it implies she was genuinely tired....also we went to see grandad yesterday and she had rubbish naps all day so she could have been tired from that...

so in summary I will push the A time on good days but not when the signals are all wrong. My plan is that she will gradually draw out that A time over the course of the weeks as a result. I also have to say we found it much easier to increase from her old 1.5 - 2h routine up to her current 2.5h + situation. That took a week or two I think so she just must have been ready for it. Its more of a daily assessment now she awake longer.

Hope this is of some help.

x

[katie80]

I think that's a great approach!  You can't really push A time if they're already tired from something, but you don't want to stay 'stuck' at one A time either.  Generally, we say 10-15min every few days is a good way to stretch, but some babies can only go by 5-10 and some like bigger jumps or 15-20, so you just need to do what's best for you!

[Violet's mom]

I hear ya!  I've decided to only push the a times a few minutes each day for violet and she's had some really good sleep the past couple of days!  She's been sleeping til 6:45 am or 7:15 am and taking two 2 hr naps and a catnap, going to bed around 7:15 pm and sleeping with only one NF!  It's been three days of this and I am estatic!  However, she can still only stay awake for 1hr 40 min in the am and 2 hr max all the other times!  She's back to being a sleepyhead (as a newborn she slept for like 21 hours a day until she was 8 weeks old)