15 wo waking in the night

[sherylfarrar]

I think we have a few problems and not really sure were to start, my 15 week old when he's going down to bed at night he either self settles and gets to sleep quickly and easily or it's taking an hour and a half of shh patting. He normally goes down about 8 or 8.30 does it sound like he needs an earlier BT? Also for the past week he has been waking up between 11 and 12 he's never had a dreamfeed as I can't get him up without disturbing him but normally he wakes up between 2 and 4am for a feed. So after he wakes up at about 11/12 it's taking an hour sometimes longer to settle him again he starts off just murmuring then he goes into a proper cry it can sometimes be 20 mins before the first murmur and him crying. A typical day is like this
7am feed
8am til 10 nap
10am feed
11.30am til 12.30 nap (try resettling for about 20 mins but doesnt normally work he's always had a short nap here.)
1pm feed
2.30pm nap
5pm feed (his choice he sleeps until 5.)
6.15 nap (we try for a catnap to get through bath time doesn't always work.)
7pm bath
7.30pm feed
8/8.30pm bed
Any help would be much appreciated thanks.

[PaulsMom]

Hi there!

Congrats on your Lo.  Hugs for the nw's though.  Ok, first thoughts.... when he wakes at around 11 pm, are you feeding him?  Is he also still waking between 2 and 4 am?  The reason I ask is that there is a gs that occurs around 16 weeks / 4 months that your DS may be hitting just a bit early. 

Wrt your routine.  Usually babies will have a 12 hr day and 12 hr night so his bt is a tad bit late.  Also, when reviewing your routine, his first A time is really short.  It may be that he's still in "night time sleep mode" for his first nap.  Most babies that are around 4 months are awake for 1 hr 45 to around 2 hrs.  So to adjust your routine, I would work to get his bt around 7 pm so that when he wakes at 7 am, he's had a 12 hr night.   You can probably drop the cn since his afternoon nap ends around 5 pm.  Then see if he can stay awake for longer in the morning so that his first A is around 1 hr 15 to 20 min.  Gradually over time, you can increase this A time until he's awake for roughly 1 hr 45 to 2 hrs. 

Here's a link with info on average A times Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

Wrt settling at night.  It sounds like he's can self settle, which is excellent.  It's good that you are using shh pat as it does help you teach independent sleep.  When he's murmuring, I would not interfere.  I would go to him when he's crying.  This way, he has a chance to try to settle on his own. 

HTH

[sherylfarrar]

Thanks for your reply. Tuesday night we tried putting him to bed at 7 he took an hour before he was fully asleep then he disturbed at 8.30 then again at 9.30 so I fed him at 9.30 then he went back down straight away no help and then woke up at 1.30 so fed him again he disturbed at 5.30 but we got him back to sleep until nearly 7. Wednesday unfortunately he went to bed at 8.30 as we had been at my nannas and he only had an hour at his afternoon nap so he had a big nap between 5 and 7 he still took an hour to fully settle down to sleep but woke up at 12.30 again disturbed at 5.30 but managed to settle.
Last night we went for a 7 BT again I'm not sure if this is where I'm going wrong I fed him at 5 when he woke up then he had a bath at 6 and then I fed him again after his bath at this feed he fell asleep on me and I wasn't able to get him into bed without waking him and it took an hour and a half to settle him. When he was settled he disturbed a few times but didn't needmuch help and then woke at 1.30 for a feed then again disturbed at 5.30 but settled down again.
How can we help him settle at night when he first goes down? Should I not feed him before he goes down? I just thought if I tanked him up he would sleep better and longer. We would really appreciate some help with this as we seem to be settling him all night and we have a 20 mo who is wanting some time with both of us.

[PaulsMom]

When he wakes, is he crying or just fussing a bit?  For settling him a night, are you just doing shh-pat while holding him or is he in his crib? 

When he wakes so soon after falling asleep at BT makes me think that he's OT at BT.  the extra stress hormones are disturbing his sleep.  So in theory, moving his BT forward will help in this regard however he may be "used to" falling asleep around 8:30.  I think that some babies have strong biorhythms so their bodies get used to going to bed at a certain time despite how long it has been since their last nap.  So what you might have to do is gradually move his BT forward 15 -20 min every few days, keeping in mind that he will likely be OT until you get the right A time before bed.  Since his last A will be too long for him, try to keep it low key.   

[sherylfarrar]

If he's got himself into a deep sleep it's only usually fussing which he can sometimes settle himself sometimes needs a bit of help but if he's only been asleep for about 10 minutes it's proper crying. We do the shh pat in his crib as we found if we hold him then put him down it takes much longer to settle him.
Last night I put him to bed at 6.45 as he was showing signs of tiredness and after 10-15 mins of shh pat he was asleep so we thought great lightat the end of the tunnel, but then after about 45 minutes he was awake so we tried shh pat then he started getting quite frantic so we got him out for a cuddle. At this point I went out and he was left with his dad so I'm not sure if it was something he did or not but then he didn't go back to bed until 10.30 after a feed and even then he took a long time to settle. It seems like he had a nap then thought he was getting up for his A time. Also after his 2am feed he was really hard to settle which never happens normally he just goes down tosses and turns for a bit then he settles himself.
Just put him down tonight at 7 he wasn't showing signs but he had been up for 1 hour 45 mins he's asleep in less than 10 mins with no intervention from me he fussed and had a bit of a cry but kept settling himself so I left him.

[PaulsMom]

Last nights bt sounds pretty good.  How did the rest of the night go? 

They have a mantra cry which they do when settling themselves so its good that he just mantra'd a bit and then self settled.  In the early weeks, it's hard not to rush in every time but when they are just mantra crying, it's best to holdback to see if they self settle or if it escalates. 

[sherylfarrar]

He disurbed at 8pm and it took half an hour on and off of shh pat I did have to give him his dummy at one point he doesn't often have it it's normally just to calm him down to concentrate on shh pat and then it's normally spat out but after that half an hour he then didnt wake up until 3.45 for a feed which he self settled after that then woke up at 7. Just hoping it's not a one off and that he was just exhausted from the night before.
Just put him down tonight and had to shh pat him to sleep but he has been a bit niggly since he woke up so I kind of expected it.
Thank you for your help just hope tonight goes as well as last night did.

[PaulsMom]

FX that tonight goes well! 

[sherylfarrar]

Last night wasn't much of a success he went down at 7 with a bit of shh pat then woke up just before 8. He then cried on and off for half an hour I was doing shh pat with him the whole time. Then between 8.30 and 10 he disturbed quite a few times. How do I help him with this transition at 8 when he disturbs? It can't be good for him being awake for nearly 2 hours. Is it just a case of keep going with shh pat and he will eventually get used to it and it will take less time to settle. Last night because he was crying for so long I wanted to get him out and give him a cuddle but I know he's worse if I do and after friday night when we did get him out and then he was wide awake for an hour and a half. Am I wrong for leaving him crying so long even though I'm with him the whole time trying to settle him?

[PaulsMom]

It's tough when they are still so little.  Did you consider feeding him again?  When they wake so often and they are this little, then I usually consider hunger as a possible reason.  There is also the 4 mo gs to deal with.  Also lots of Los this young will want to cluster feed in the evening and into the early part of the night. 

Wrt settling him, I know that lots of moms will try to settle within 20 min and if it doesn't work, to get them up, calm them down and try again.  With sleep training, try to be consistent so if you do get him up, do your wind down routine again (eg. Swaddle, story, lullaby, etc) and then do the shh pat and put him down.  It may take several days to a week but he will learn the routine.  But I found with my dd, no amount of soothing on my part would help if she was hungry.

[sherylfarrar]

I did think about feeding him but I was waiting until 3 hours as I didn't want him to associate crying with being fed, but at the 3 hour point he was settling down. Thinking about how he fed yesterday he was very funny it didnt feel like he had a good feed all day he just wasnt interested and normally he would have a feed at 5 when he wakes up then 6.30 before bed but he only had a feed at 6.30 last night so I will try feeding him if he gets like that tonight.

[sherylfarrar]

Well we had some success last night but just a few things I wonder if you can help with.
He went down at 6.45 last night as he had already been up for 2 hours and didn't hear anything from him until 9.30 tried shh pat to see if he was just unsettled or hungry he kept disturbing until 10 so at this point I fed him.  After his feed we did normal routine of putting him to bed but it was like he wanted to be up and playing we kept going with shh pat but it was not over an hour before he settled. If this happens again do we just keep going until he falls asleep so he learns that its night time? also how long roughly should a mantra cry last? Thanks again for your help I'm hoping we're beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[PaulsMom]

I did think about feeding him but I was waiting until 3 hours as I didn't want him to associate crying with being fed

.
You do have to use your gut instinct here rather than the clock as they are having lots of gs so early on.  I wouldn't worry too much about crying and being fed at this age. 

After his feed we did normal routine of putting him to bed but it was like he wanted to be up and playing we kept going with shh pat but it was not over an hour before he settled. If this happens again do we just keep going until he falls asleep so he learns that its night time? also how long roughly should a mantra cry last?

Yes, do your bt routine so he's not thinking it's time to play.  They will learn if you are consistent about it.  If he's just up and not crying, so the routine, put him in his crib and see if he settles.  Go in when he's crying.  I find my dd can mantra cry for around 10 min.  Lots of bubs take 20 min to settle and go to sleep so there is variability.   

[sherylfarrar]

Thank you for all your help apart from the odd days when we've not been able to get him to bed on time because his big brother was poorly he's been so much better at night he goes straight down at 7 by himself he does disturb at around 8 he can sometimes settle himself and sometimes we need to shh pat and then he gets up for his feed between 10 and 1 and then straight back to bed.
Thank you

[PaulsMom]

Awesome  !  I'm glad things are working out!