Night sleep training to a 5month old with a toddler in the next room

[Marie-O]

It's been quite a while since we started EASY and days are not so bad, although my 5month old DD still cries a lot for naps, but that's another topic. What I really want to ask you is how do you make night training work with a toddler in the room next to baby's?

It's been 5 nights since I'm trying to make DD2 stop the 1am feeding (DF at 10pm, 1am, 4am, wu 6:30am). I want to cut the 1am one since I know she can go for longer streches.

The thing is that my 2,5 year old toddler is in the room next to her so she wakes up when I'm trying to sush/pad or PU/Pd.

How do all of you did it??

This has been such a rough week, no one sleeps at home

TIA

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), it's so hard when one wakes the other. Will your toddler sleep with white noise at all? My two are right next to each other and both have small desktop fans in their rooms for white noise.  My DS had a few long, upset NWs when I stopped nursing at all of them and my DD never woke.

Is the waking at 1 pretty habitual? Could you try wake-to-sleep at 12am and see if she starts to sleep through that time without waking and having to be resettled? How do I address habitual wakings?  (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

Is she an independent sleeper during the day and at BT?  Just making sure she is used to being settled with either shh/pat or PUPD, so the crying isn't more than it needs to be.

[Marie-O]

Thank you for your answer Katie.
She usually wakes up around 1am, but it could be in fact anytime between 12:30 and 2:30, so it's never exactly the same time every night.

Yes she's independent sleeper since 2 month ago, although she still struggles for some of the naps, specially if I let her go too long A time.

Our BT routine and nights look like this:

7pm Bath and then BFing. I lay her down awake and she settles by herself (usually)
10pm DF (I give her 5-6oz of formula, because when I try BFing she falls asleep too quickly)
~1am NW, I do Shh/pat and PU/PD
~4:30 NW, I nurse her (I'll work later on getting rid of that one)
6:30am wake up and nurse

I'll try white noise, although to be honest the screaming is so loud that not sure if it will work....I'll give it a try.

[katie80]

I'll try white noise, although to be honest the screaming is so loud that not sure if it will work....I'll give it a try.

Sometimes a loud box fan right outside the door of the toddler's room can help too.

What does the rest of your EAS look like for the day?  Do you think she's OT at BT and that is encouraging the NW?  How long is it taking her to settle?

[Marie-O]

Do you think she's OT at BT and that is encouraging the NW?

Yes indeed could be. But yesterday for example, we had to do lots of errands so we were out almost all day. She napped no more than 20min each time in the car and the night was not so bad: woke up at 1am, couldn't resettle her and ended up BFing her after 30min of screaming, then she woke up again at 7am....weird or what?

What does the rest of your EAS look like for the day?

Our EASy is very unusual since I have to go to the gym almost every day for health issues (and actually I enjoy it). There's a daycare at the gym so she plays while I exercise for 1h. It varies a bit every day but this is our average:

6:30am wakes up - stay in the crib for 15min until I get my DD2 ready
7am BF (usually she doesn't take much)
8am we go out to drop DD2 at school
8:20-9:15 nap in the car
10am drinks 3-4oz bottle (she doesn't really like the bottle but we keep trying)
10:30am we go home and she's supper tired and bit hungry so I nurse her downstairs, she falls asleep while nursing and then I take her upstairs and put her in the crib semi-awake.
Sleeps from 10:50-12:30 (approximately)
1pm BF
2:45-3:45 sleeps for 1h (sometimes less)
4pm BF
5:30 CN (this one is hard but she naps for 30min)
6pm BF
7pm bath, massage BF and BT
10pm DF (5-6oz bottle)
1am NW try to resettle and can't so I end up BFing
4:30 NW BF (except yesterday she didn't wake up until 7am)
6:30am WU

What do you think? I know she's over tired in the morning since we do the school run and then go to the gym, but she seems to take it well and never gets cranky or fussy. Sometimes I feel bad about stretching her so much, but I really need to go to the gym.

[katie80]

She napped no more than 20min each time in the car and the night was not so bad: woke up at 1am, couldn't resettle her and ended up BFing her after 30min of screaming, then she woke up again at 7am....weird or what?

Yeah, not too weird though, because sometimes when they're exhausted from so little sleep they just sort of crash. 

I think your EASY doesn't look to bad really.  It's hard to have a perfect EASY with two kids and activities to think about.  I actually wonder if that extra CN at 5:30 is throwing a bit of a wrench in things rather than her being OT at BT.  She still needs it to get through the day, obviously, but if all that afternoon sleep could be consolidated into one nap rather than two shorter ones, I wonder if she'd sleep better at night.  It might be a bit of an UT issue. (She's actually getting a good amount of sleep during the day.)  Have you played around with that pm A time to see if you can get that nap a little longer?  I also notice that she's eating closer to every 3hr rather than every 4.  This may not be an issue, but it could mean that she's not taking good full feeds, so is genuinely hungry when she wakes at night.  Have you thought about dropping the 4:30am feed instead to see if she would start the day with a good, full feed and hopefully set you up for a better feeding routine?  Just throwing out an idea.

1am NW try to resettle and can't so I end up BFing

Here is what I think might be the main issue though.  Is this happening every night, where you try to resettle, but can't and end up feeding?  If so, I think that feed has likely been encouraged more than anything, because she's learning that if she keeps crying, she will be fed.  

[Marie-O]

but if all that afternoon sleep could be consolidated into one nap rather than two shorter ones, I wonder if she'd sleep better at night.  It might be a bit of an UT issue. (She's actually getting a good amount of sleep during the day.)  Have you played around with that pm A time to see if you can get that nap a little longer?

This could be something to try, but its easier said than done. I hate so much extending naps, she cries out of control until she crashes.
I can try extending A times in the afternoon and see if that helps with longer naps (hopefully on her own).

I also notice that she's eating closer to every 3hr rather than every 4.

Her A times are not long enough and not are her naps either to hold for a 4h EASY. I follow her cues most of the times and usually she's pretty tired at 1h30-1h45 A time, I try to get her in bed by the second yawn.

I know this is a trial and error game. But sometimes I feel I have no life, I live around her naps and A times it becomes an obsession. I try not to get out of the house so much so she can have consistency.

Today it hasn't been a good day. First nap at home it took her very long to fall asleep and only napped for 1h15. Second nap she cried for 30min to fall asleep and then she slept for 30min only, I extended the nap with PU/PD and it took me 45min of hell screaming until she crashed....I feel I can't do this anymore, really.

Sorry to vent like this....I know is out of topic, this should be a "couch" post.

[anna*]

It is amazing what they'll sleep through. My two share a room (with white noise playing on an ipod) and my son sleeps through terrible loud crying. Not saying yours will, of course, but the fan might be just enough to keep her asleep.

[katie80]

but if all that afternoon sleep could be consolidated into one nap rather than two shorter ones, I wonder if she'd sleep better at night.  It might be a bit of an UT issue. (She's actually getting a good amount of sleep during the day.)  Have you played around with that pm A time to see if you can get that nap a little longer?

This could be something to try, but its easier said than done. I hate so much extending naps, she cries out of control until she crashes.
I can try extending A times in the afternoon and see if that helps with longer naps (hopefully on her own).

Yeah, if she's already slept an hr it's really hard to extend and I never really tried.  But, if she can do it on her own, that would help.  I don't know that that specific time is UT, tbh, I was thinking overall for the day, she's gotten a decent amount of day sleep that that might be partly why she fights so much in the MOTN.  I do think generally, 1h30-1h45 is pretty low for a 5mo old, so you might start trying to gently stretch those by 5/10/15min over the next week or so, as that is likely part of the reason she's fighting going down. 

I know this is a trial and error game. But sometimes I feel I have no life, I live around her naps and A times it becomes an obsession. I try not to get out of the house so much so she can have consistency.

(((Hugs))), don't make yourself a prisoner.  It will get better as her A times increase and she gets to two solid naps (which you're close to at 5mo).  Honestly, I think the routine you posted the other day is really pretty good.  This is such a common age for tough naps.  If it's all too much for you, you might just decide to do the best you can with the routine, while still getting out and enjoying life as much as you feel comfortable doing and then work more on dropping the NF once the routine is more settled on 2 naps.  I know it's not ideal to be waking in the MOTN, but sometimes the trade off is worth it to have a more pleasant day (at least it was for me and taking both my kids' needs into consideration). 

It will get better, I promise.  I thought things got a bit easier around 6ish mo and then much easier around 1yr.  And now my baby is almost 2... it goes so fast (but I know it doesn't feel like it in the moment).

[Marie-O]

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement Katie
I know it will get better, I've been there 2 years ago.

Actually las night she slept through until 5am, BF and then slept until 7am

The good days and nights make up for the bad ones!

Thanks again

[katie80]

The good days and nights make up for the bad ones!

For sure!  Hope you get some more!