6MO (28 weeks) - Frequent Night Wakings... what am I missing?

[stephanne2]

Lo is 28 weeks, has not yet STTN once.  At this point, I'd even settle for just one MOTN waking. Up until 5.5MO, we had 3-4+ MOTN NW. At 5.5MO, it gradually reduced to 2-3 NW. The longest stretch LO has gone is from BT (7:30) to 3am, waking again at 5am (DWT is 7/7:30) and that's happened twice.  Our schedule is the same (mostly) day to day with maybe 30 minutes variation. But to give you an idea, here's what yesterday looked like:

7:30, Awake, Nurse
E - 8:30 Solids
A - 2 hours
S - 9:30 - 11:20 Nap (an unusually long stretch w/o eating)
E - 11:20, Nurse
A - 3 hours
E - 2:00, Nurse (not an ideal time, but don't know when else to feed as next feeding would mostly likely fall during nap. So I feed beforehand to avoid waking from nap due to hunger, for lack of a better option.  The only time LO is able to go 4 hours btw feeds is in the AM, simply because she's usually eaten at 3/4 and/or 5:5/30 and again at 7/7:30.)
S - 2:30 to 4
A - 4 hours
E - 5:00, Nurse
6:00 Solids
6:30 Bath
7:00, Nurse
7:15, Dressing into PJ's, Reading, Lights Out
7:30 asleep

MOTN #1 - 2am
MOTN #2 - 4am
MOTN #3 - 6am

At each MOTN waking, I wait at least 10 minutes before going to her. She never really cries, mind you--just kind of fusses and talks and moans (mantra crying?) but will do so for up to an hour, off and on, before either crying or falling asleep.  If she starts to actually cry--hard--before 10 minutes, I go to her.  Unfortunately, PU/PD only upsets her more, and she does not re-settle with just a paci. My only option is to offer a feeding. doing so is also my fastest solution to getting some more sleep at night myself. If it weren't for the fact that I'm growing more and more frustrated and discouraged (DD1 STTN at 13 weeks and never looked back, and DD2 is nowhere close at 28wks), I'd just keep doing the MOTN feedings. I just need sleep and I want LO to get good healthy sleep someday, without all of the bad habits routines we get into that prevent that.

Naps are getting more and more consistent. When I moved to a 2-3-4 nap schedule 2wks ago, naps started going from 45 min to 80min, on avg. and that's also when we got our first 9 hour stretch. She's been getting 2-1/2 hours DT sleep consistently, which I know isn't enough, but it's infinitely better than what we WERE getting (90 minutes!!) We haven't had the third CN since about 4-1/2 months. Yesterday, she got 3 hr, 15 minutes of DT sleep and I thought for sure we'd get another 9 hour stretch, given that was one of the factors that lead to each of the prior 9hour stretches--but alas... that didn't happen. And now I'm tired, worn down, burned out, frustrated and losing hope quickly.

I've tried weaning the MOTN feedings b/c half the time LO barely nurses and since she's usually back asleep a minute into nursing MOTN, I think it's possible it's become more of a prop than a need. I started at 8min (her max MOTN feeding time), but half the time she'll nurse for less than my goal time so having a 'schedule' for weaning is pretty much useless.  After the first and usually the second feedings, she goes right back down (mostly b/c she's slept through feeding).  Sometimes after the third, she has a little trouble.

Overall, she wakes roughly 11hours after going to bed no matter what time I put her down--and EBT only helped her sleep 11.5 hours give or take.  If I put her down at 6:30, she'd wake ready and rearing to go at 6. DWT is 7/7:30 because of our family schedule (I have a 6YO DD as well) but her wake-up time has gotten earlier and earlier and earlier.  Lately, she's been waking at 5:50/6 unable to re-settle. I know she's still tired though because when I nurse her, choosing to start our day at 6:45 or whatever, she falls asleep at the breast SO HARD it's impossible to wake her up let alone keep her awake. (Again--thinking a little sleep prop problem tied in here.)

Adding to the problem, we've got severe separation anxiety, which makes A time ROUGH and probably contributes to our MOTN issues, though those have been going on since week 14, before Separation Anxiety reared its ugly little head. Best I can tell, she's not actively teething so no worries there and I don't *think* there are any big developmental issues causing trouble either, but what do I know! lol

I'm venting and I apologize--I blame it on lack of sleep, lack of patience and an overall brokenhearted frustration with an ingrained mental philosophy that has me convinced that no matter WHAT I do, WHAT I try, when, how, where, etc... this child will NOT STTN. Ever. I feel like over the last 3 months, we've (I've) tried everything. So why keep trying?  (We've been E-A-S-Y since Day 1 and here we are--tired, run down, burned out and ready to throw in the towel.)

Any suggestions? What am I missing here?

[katie80]

Hi there, (((hugs))) it's so hard to feel exhausted and discouraged.

It sounds to me like you do have a feed to sleep prop in the MOTN. Is she an independent sleeper for naps and BT? As far as settling in the MOTN goes, Tracy never really followed a time frame, but rather suggested to go by her cries. If she's just fussing, moaning, chatting you need to leave her if you want her to be an independent sleeper, as hard as that is. But, if her cry escalates, you need to go to her right away (not waiting any amount of time), esp as she is struggling with SA.

I think if you want to get rid of the prop, you need to choose which NWs you will feed at and which you will settle. I'd start with at least 4hr between NFs, settling the other NWs. The thing is, if you start settling and go over the 4hr time frame, you need to still settle til she's asleep and then feed at the next waking, even if she's only slept 10min.

As far as routine goes, what were you doing before you went to the 2-3-4 routine? It does look like it's working quite well for naps, so working on the prop may be all you need to do. But, I am wondering if she could be a bit OT at BT and that's the reason for the EW that is hard to settle. If you gently pushed the first A out to 2.5hr, you might have a more balanced day with better night sleep. But, maybe not. It's hard to tell.

What do you think?

[stephanne2]

At naptime and BT she goes down awake and puts herself to sleep. If there's any fuss at all, it's 2-3 minutes max and that's very rare. It's just the MOTN that's different. And as far as picking which NW to feed at, that's where it gets tricky because she barely eats at all most of the time.  Last night--miraculously enough--she only woke up ONCE.  ONCE!!!!  We did a 2-3-3.5 schedule yesterday, and she had 3hr of DT sleep. BT was at 7:30, she slept until 3, she woke up crying so I went right to her, fed her and she barely ate at all. Then was up at 6:15 and I let her fuss/talk/moan until 7am (she slept on and off during that time.)

Before the 2-3-4 schedule, we were at 1-1/2 WT in the morning, 2 hr in the afternoon, and struggling through a 4-5 hour WT at night (no 3rd nap, EBT only backfired after a week and a half of trying, etc, etc.)  Extending the WT's has helped naps tremendously, and in turn, the nights.  But her naps aren't consisitently 1.5hr in length and if we don't get two that are at least 1.5hr, she's OT because it's a longer stretch until BT (we're trying to keep that consistent for now to see what happens vs. experimenting with EBT which only seemed to make wake-up time earlier and earlier.)

I don't know if my biggest problem is naps and the fact that they're not short, but they're still not long enough or if it's the nurse-to-sleep issue.  And even last night--she woke up a couple of times (10:30pm and 4:30am), fussed a bit and put herself back to sleep within 5-8 minutes so I know she has the skill... SOMEWHERE. lol.  Maybe it's a combination of both?

So frustrating.  Today was one of those shorter nap days-- 1hr, 20 minutes and 1hr 15 minutes. So I know going into tonight it's going to be an up-all-night type of scenario. :-(  And I am soooo tired.

If my biggest issue is nursing to sleep... whew, that's going to be a tough one to crack. DH isn't willing to help and when I go in there to just offer her paci and to help her settle to sleep, she just SCREAMS bloody murder. It's like going in there at all just makes it WORSE unless I'm willing to give in to that feeding.  Even picking her up and attempting to hold her or rock her just to get her to calm down doesn't work--the girl is in fits! For a long time, I've feared it was hunger and that's why she was so determined, so I just started offering those feedings. Well, now it's like 2-3 minutes of suck/swallow and even before minute 2 is up, she's usually asleep, feeding in her sleep the remainder of the time--like nursing is an afterthought!

I might try extending the first WT as well and see what happens. It was rough extending it just to 2 hours because LO can be pretty stubborn and she's fussy/irritable/rubbing eyes and head against my shoulder at about 1.5-2 hours after waking EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. Frustrating! She moans and fusses all day long these days and I can't tell if she's tired or bored anymore. *sigh*

Do you recommend a shorter WT before bed?  We tried 3.5 last night and it worked, but when she doesn't get 3 hr minimum at naptime or even otherwise, I'm just afraid the earlier I put her down, the earlier she'll get up because that's what's happened so far... 

[stephanne2]

Also... when LO wakes early either in the morning or from a nap,  do you count that waking as the start of her WT even if she is just quiet and/or fussing in her crib to where you can leave her until DWT or the end of nap? Or do you only calculate WT from the time they're actually physically out of their crib?

For example.  LO up at 6:30, but content enough (not crying) to stay in her crib until DWT 7. Do you count the start of WT as 6:30 when she wakes or 7 when you actually get her up/out?

[katie80]

Maybe it's a combination of both?

Yeah, I think it's a combination of both.

I might try extending the first WT as well and see what happens. It was rough extending it just to 2 hours because LO can be pretty stubborn and she's fussy/irritable/rubbing eyes and head against my shoulder at about 1.5-2 hours after waking EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. Frustrating! She moans and fusses all day long these days and I can't tell if she's tired or bored anymore. *sigh*

This is what makes me feel like the EASY is unbalanced.   2-3-4 does work well for some babies, but it sounds to me like the afternoon A is just a little too long for her, so she's having disrupted nights and then is quite tired in the morning so hard to stretch to an age-appropriate A time (for her it would be around 2.5-3hr).  I'd keep gently pushing her to 2.5hr for that first A, and keep the other ones around 3-3.5hr to see if evening out the day helps a bit.  It also sounds to me like after the good night, the A times weren't long enough to get good naps, so that's another reason to gently push them.  Is she getting any teeth or working through new developmental things that could be a factor of the moaning and fussing during the day? 

For a long time, I've feared it was hunger and that's why she was so determined, so I just started offering those feedings. Well, now it's like 2-3 minutes of suck/swallow and even before minute 2 is up, she's usually asleep, feeding in her sleep the remainder of the time--like nursing is an afterthought!

And this says prop to me, although some LOs are just fine to feed in their sleep so I don't know that that is an indicator of whether or not she's taking a feed.  Is she still actively feeding while asleep, or is she using the feed to fall asleep do you think?  Knowing that she is capable of self-settling is a really good thing though.  She will definitely fight it if you go in to resettle the first few times, because every time she sees you in the MOTN, she gets fed, but since she's already an independent sleeper, I think she'll catch on pretty quick.  All that being said, if you want to keep the feeds until you get the EASY a bit more ironed out and then see if she drops them on her own, that's surely an option.

Also... when LO wakes early either in the morning or from a nap,  do you count that waking as the start of her WT even if she is just quiet and/or fussing in her crib to where you can leave her until DWT or the end of nap? Or do you only calculate WT from the time they're actually physically out of their crib?

It depends on the LO, really.  For my DD, I counted from when she woke, not from when I took her out of the crib as she was a bit touchy with A times.  For my DS, I generally counted from when I got him out of the crib, give or take 10-15min.  He's always been a bit more laid back with regards to sleep.  At this age, I'd probably count from the actual wake, but as they get older, and are more physical, I'd count from you got them up (or go halfway in between) to account for the resting in the crib.  Does that help?

[stephanne2]

We had another great night with only one NW last night... go figure. You post about something and then things turn all wonky (in a good way!) LOL. But the first nap was only 1 hr, 10min and she was still up earlier than DWT, so not out of the woods yet. Just coincidentally lucky, I'm sure! She woke at 6, fussed & slept off and on until 6:50, crashed hard nursing for the AM feed (I seriously could NOT wake the child up for nuttin') and went down for a nap a fussy lil' cranky pants at 9:20.  All told it was 2.5 hours, but I guess I should have adjusted for the little "nursing nap" --in addition to keeping her from doing that in the first place!!  Our second nap was after a 3hr WT, but she took like a 2-3 minute snooze in the car on our way home about half an hour before nap and I think it probably sabotaged that nap, too--2nd nap was 35 minutes!!!! 

So just to make sure I'm reading your suggestions correctly, you're thinking of maybe a 2.5/3/3.5 hour schedule? Try it for a week and see what happens? No teeth yet (as far as I can tell) and she's been angry-fussing on her tummy on the floor "swimming" like she's bound and determined to get a move on for about 4 weeks now, but I still think we've got a ways to go before she's army-crawling or anything. Outside of that, not sure what other developmental leaps she's making that might be causing the fuss.  Honestly, I think it's boredom. The best stretch we have is the evenings because my oldest DD (6YO) and DH are around to supply her with endless entertainment.  During the day when it's just me, the day not only DRAGS, but I feel like I have NOTHING to do to entertain. (Need to google some activities. Do you think maybe she's not effectively stimulated enough, too?)

(Quoting text isn't working for me today for some reason... weird.)

In the MOTN I'm usually half-asleep and doing everything I can to keep myself awake during the night feeds, so I'm not sure if she's still actively feeding while asleep, or if she's using the feed to fall asleep.  There's several times that she's awakened MOTN and fussed a bit and put herself to sleep--sometimes up to 2-3 times in a 7-8 hour stretch on days where we didn't get enough DT sleep, so you'd think that would rule out the feeding to sleep, but I don't really know. I'm one of the "lucky" ones that can't feel let down and I very RARELY hear LO actually swallowing--even during the day after a 4/4.5 hour stretch w/o eating. These days I'm going by how much my nipple hurts during the feeding--the more the hurt, the less she's actually "eating" and the more she's [painfully] playing, at which point I pull her off and put her straight to bed.   These last two nights she's had maybe 3-4 minutes of actually feeding (from what I could tell), longer than her usual, but I'm still not convinced she needs that MOTN feed. BUT... so far it seems to be working (aside from the early waking), so I'll stick with it. ONE NW is still better than THREE!!! :-)

With your DD that you mentioned was a little touchy with her A times... what sort of nap/WT schedule or routine did you find most helpful?  My LO isn't nearly as touchy as she used to be (or at least things seem to be MUCH easier nowadays), but she's definitely a fickle pickle.  I switched to the 2-3-4 because I needed longer A times, knew the evening stretch would always be the longest (because of DD1's schedule and LO's lack of late afternoon naptimes) and it seemed to fit the bill. We haven't quite figured out the feeding part of it though, so I'm not 100% committed and am open to any other suggestions! Were your naps more BTC at this age?

(I SOOOOO appreciate your help, BTW).

[katie80]

She woke at 6, fussed & slept off and on until 6:50, crashed hard nursing for the AM feed (I seriously could NOT wake the child up for nuttin') and went down for a nap a fussy lil' cranky pants at 9:20.  All told it was 2.5 hours, but I guess I should have adjusted for the little "nursing nap" --in addition to keeping her from doing that in the first place!!

What time was the NW at?  If she's really that tired, I wonder if you nursed her right away at 6am, if she'd go back for another hr or so and then you could start at your desired wake time.  Or, just be really sure to not let her fall asleep nursing as those little sleeps can definitely make a difference in the next nap for some kiddos.

So just to make sure I'm reading your suggestions correctly, you're thinking of maybe a 2.5/3/3.5 hour schedule? Try it for a week and see what happens?

That's what I'd do.  She's getting closer to 7mo than 6, right?  This seems like a more balanced day, which would hopefully lead to less NWs, but if you'd rather stick to the 2-3-4 and see if she settles into it more, there's no saying I'm right.   The one caution with doing a 2-3-4 is that it can actually start to encourage EWs as LOs get older, because their body is used to going back to sleep within a couple hours, so they end up using it to tack on to their night sleep.  How long have you been doing the 2-3-4 routine?  Things do seem to be falling into place a little more, with a couple good nights lately.

During the day when it's just me, the day not only DRAGS, but I feel like I have NOTHING to do to entertain. (Need to google some activities. Do you think maybe she's not effectively stimulated enough, too?)

It's definitely a possibility.  Are you able to take her outside much?  Mine loved books at that age, so we did lots of reading and signing.  The exersaucer and jolly jumper are good ones at this age too, if used appropriately (i.e. not for hours at a time).

It sounds like you've got a pretty good feel for her feeds.  At this age, I'd say a 4min feeding is probably close to a full one.  They can get quite efficient. 

With your DD that you mentioned was a little touchy with her A times... what sort of nap/WT schedule or routine did you find most helpful?  My LO isn't nearly as touchy as she used to be (or at least things seem to be MUCH easier nowadays), but she's definitely a fickle pickle.  I switched to the 2-3-4 because I needed longer A times, knew the evening stretch would always be the longest (because of DD1's schedule and LO's lack of late afternoon naptimes) and it seemed to fit the bill. We haven't quite figured out the feeding part of it though, so I'm not 100% committed and am open to any other suggestions! Were your naps more BTC at this age?

I still did mainly A times with both of mine til they were solidly on one nap, but both have been pretty consistent in their morning wake up (DD always around 6:30am and DS around 7), so more or less they were clock times as well.  Both of mine didn't drop the CN til later (7/8 mo), but the both ended up having 2 CNs and one long nap for a couple months before hand.  Sorry, I'm not a very good example.   Here are some sample routines for her age group, if you'd like to take a look... chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months, chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months.  What kinds of feeding questions do you have?

[stephanne2]

What time was the NW at?  If she's really that tired, I wonder if you nursed her right away at 6am, if she'd go back for another hr or so and then you could start at your desired wake time.  Or, just be really sure to not let her fall asleep nursing as those little sleeps can definitely make a difference in the next nap for some kiddos.

The night feeding was at 3:30am.  If I feed her at 6, I want to NOT treat it like another NW and keep her awake instead, right? Even though it's almost completely daylight at that time (even with blackout shade/covering)? Will that teach her to "snack" since she'll be eating again an hour or so later at DWT or is this just until we get her wake-up time back to where it should be?

How long have you been doing the 2-3-4 routine?  Things do seem to be falling into place a little more, with a couple good nights lately.

We've been doing it for just about 2 weeks.  And it's been sketchy with naps--sometimes they're great, sometimes they're not. My nights are getting better (2 nights with 1 NW and last night was 1 NW at 3, then again at 5, 6, and 7. But overall, it's been a huge improvement from the constant 45 minute naps and 3-4 NW we were getting before! Hard to tell if she's still settling into it or not.  I tried 2.5 hours again today, she slept 45 minutes and woke up madder than a hornet. But that could just be because she's not used to that longer WT yet--hopefully she'll adjust in another couple of days and we can see what happens!  I'm hoping a longer 1st WT is the answer--this LO has kept me guessing for 6-1/2 months now, lol!  DD1 was so much "easier". :-)

It's definitely a possibility.  Are you able to take her outside much?  Mine loved books at that age, so we did lots of reading and signing.  The exersaucer and jolly jumper are good ones at this age too, if used appropriately (i.e. not for hours at a time).

Thankfully, now that the weather is nicer we are able to go out a little more. Sometimes I almost have to go for a walk or run errands--anything to occupy the longer blocks of time. Once it gets too hot though, that might change slightly. Plus, DD1 will be home from school!  We do have a jumperoo and an exersaucer--she gets maybe 10-15 of independant play time in there total throughout the day. Maybe 5-7 minutes in a stretch before she goes bullistic because I'm not holding her! lol It's so cute and I love it, but man is it exhausting!

What kinds of feeding questions do you have?

Well, she's currently on a 3.5/4 hour feeding schedule (to ensure that she's getting good feeds). But with the 2-3-4 schedule, I have to feed her after a 2-1/2 hour interval before her second nap so she doesn't wake from that nap 45-60 minutes in because she's hungry.  So I've not yet figured out how to do the 2-3-4 WT's with that 3.5/4 hour feeding schedule.  She eats after she wakes from her first nap (let's say 10:30) and would in theory need to eat again at 2/2:30, but naptime is 1:30 and would run through that feeding. Any thoughts?

[katie80]

The night feeding was at 3:30am.  If I feed her at 6, I want to NOT treat it like another NW and keep her awake instead, right? Even though it's almost completely daylight at that time (even with blackout shade/covering)? Will that teach her to "snack" since she'll be eating again an hour or so later at DWT or is this just until we get her wake-up time back to where it should be?

Well, you either need to keep her awake, so that she doesn't dose and mess up the A time, or try treating it like a NW and see if you can get that wake-up back to where you want it.  It's up to you, how you want to go about it.  If she does feed well at that time, I'd not feed right away upon waking then and either do it in the middle of A time, or before the nap (which may help the issue you're having during the second A time as well).  Or, do a top up feed when she wakes and then feed solids, which should help her get through at least the first nap.  Feedings often need some flexibility at this age.

Hard to tell if she's still settling into it or not.  I tried 2.5 hours again today, she slept 45 minutes and woke up madder than a hornet. But that could just be because she's not used to that longer WT yet--hopefully she'll adjust in another couple of days and we can see what happens! 

Yeah, I probably would've done 2h15min for a few days and then pushed to 2h30min, as it can take them a little while to adjust.  But, hopefully she'll get there soon.  Any chance you can go in and resettle her when she wakes early like that?

But with the 2-3-4 schedule, I have to feed her after a 2-1/2 hour interval before her second nap so she doesn't wake from that nap 45-60 minutes in because she's hungry.  So I've not yet figured out how to do the 2-3-4 WT's with that 3.5/4 hour feeding schedule.  She eats after she wakes from her first nap (let's say 10:30) and would in theory need to eat again at 2/2:30, but naptime is 1:30 and would run through that feeding. Any thoughts?

That's really normal for feeds as the A times get longer.  You can give her a full milk feed before the second nap and do solids after, or give her half the milk feed before and half after.  Or, if you end up doing an early morning feed as talked about above, the feeds may end up working out a different way, by happening closer to the end of A time than at the beginning.  I'd do whatever works best for you!

[stephanne2]

Thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it!

We had another long night stretch with only one waking.  Apparently, I should have posted earlier about my awful, awful nights. LOL Murphy's Law. :-)  Still working on that morning A time--today she woke after 35 minutes and has been quietly playing in her crib for 10 minutes now--not a peep. (I'm watching her on video.) WT was about 2hr, 20min because she was starting to get drowsy/sleepy on our walk and then cranky/fussy when we got home.   I haven't tried settling her back to sleep--I used to when she was much, much younger but it only seemed to make things worse. She'd either cry harder (if crying already) or if she was half-awake, going in to settle her just seemed to wake her up more.  I was never successful putting her back down and eventually gave up trying.  When we started getting 45 minute naps consistently at 14 weeks (until about 23 weeks), I tried everything I could to extend naps and ended up just accepting them for what they were and trying again the next day.

Now I guess I'm off to search through the nap boards and the nursing/prop boards to get my naps back on track and hopefully find a solution we can work with for the nights so we can keep this streak going!  Thank you again for all of your help/input! I REALLY, REALLY appreciate it!

[stephanne2]

We're now at 30 minutes of quiet playing in her crib, post waking after 35minute nap.  She's just now beginning to fuss/whine a bit.  It sounds like UT because she was content to just play around--but can 10 minutes (putting her down after 2hr, 20min WT vs. 2hr, 30 min WT) really make that big of a difference?  Would you suggest going back to 2hrs, 15min at this point since 2.5 isn't taking? Or do you think it's still too early to evaluate and adjust? I'm on Day 4 with the longer first WT's.

[katie80]

Yay for another good night!

As for the nap, it does sound like UT, but 35min can also be OS.  I'd stick with 2.5hr for a few more days and see if she settles into it, but if you feel like 2h15min would be better for her than you sure can try going back. 

FWIW, I actually don't think you have a nursing prop, per se.  I think it's just going to be a matter of getting the EASY ironed out, as clearly her nights have gotten better already (or just keep posting here ).  If it was a true prop, she would continue waking in the night because she couldn't get herself back to sleep.