11 Week old night waking and refusing dream feed

[sianipeters]

Hoping you can help! My EBF baby is 11 weeks old and her nights seem to be getting worse not better! At about six weeks old she started to push her night feeds out and so was waking sometimes only once at about three in the morning for a really good feed after a dream feed between 10/11pm.

But! She had a cold for three weeks and even though we have offered a bottle of EBM every night since she was two weeks old, she has been gradually taking less and less. Some nights refusing any. She has consistently been waking at 1.30ish then at 5.00am for two weeks now (cold completely gone). Last night i gave in and breast fed the dream feed (she seemed to feed well) but she still woke at 1.20am but had a rubbish feed (as im guessing she was still full!!) Then she woke again at 5.10am and me thinking i was being clever gave her a shorter feed so she'd have a full feed at 7am. She then woke at 6.20 

I'm wondering if i can try not feeding her at 1am and shhh patting her back and then expect tp see her at 3 genuinly hungry? Because when she has a rubbish dream feed she wakes at 1.30am which means she has potenitally gone from 7pm-1.30am = 6.5hours!! I need that time in the night not the evening!

Have read guidance on giving a bottle and i think i'm going to have to starve her for 48hrs and offer only the bottle so want to leave that one for a while (she s a stuborn little lady-i expressed and tried to give the 4pm feed in a bottle for a week....she gradually took less and less of that too and just woke up more in the night to compensate)

She's on a three hourly schedule, naps reasonably well,  and gets tanked up! This all worked wonders with my older textbook daughter who was sleeping through from her dream feed until 7 by 8weeks old!11 weeks on up three times in the night, im on my knees with this one!!

Any ideas much appreciated! Thanks x x

[katie80]

Hi there, it sounds like you maybe just need to decide what works best for you.  If she's not taking the bottle very well for the DF, but takes a full BF, and you want to keep the DF, then I'd do a BF for the DF.  If you know she hasn't taken much for a DF, I don't know that I'd try to shh/pat her back to sleep at 1:30, because she's likely to just wake again within 30-60min.  I'd only feel comfortable shh/patting her back to sleep if you know she's taken as good DF, and even then, it's been over 3hr, so she may need the feed.  On the other hand, the DF doesn't work well for some babies, disrupting their sleep more than helping it, so it may just be that you choose to drop that and feed when she wakes, but it doesn't sound like that's what you'd like to happen.  Honestly, she may still need both feeds, esp is she's going through a GS (there's usually one around 3mo), but again, this may not be your issue if it's just a case of her not taking the DF well. 

You can work on getting her to take a bottle better again during the day, before reintroducing it at the DF.  FWIW, I don't think you need to starve her to get her to take a bottle and I certainly wouldn't do it at this age.  Lots of EBF moms have had success getting their LO to take a bottle by just continuing to offer once a day before you BF.  Or, maybe experiment with warmer milk, a little faster flow nipple, etc.

I know you probably already know this, but you got a bit lucky with your DD1, there are not many EBF babies sleeping through from the DF even by 3/4/5mo.  What you're experiencing is totally normal, although I know it's exhausting.  (((Hugs)))

[*jazzberry*]

The DF didn't work for any of my babies, I either couldn't get them to take it properly and/or it totally disrupted their sleep cycle and they ended up waking just as much in the night if not more. I have heard on here many times that it doesn't work for all babies. Also have you tried a different teat? Maybe the flow is too slow and he is getting frustrated??
Have you seen this? Breastfed babies and bottles

[Erin M]

Hi hun-
The link that jazzberry posted above has some really great advice on getting your LO to take a bottle.  I'd definitely join the other ladies in advising against starving her right now (unless you have some sort of emergency situation) as at this age, they can get dehydrated quite easily and oftentimes, moms who try to do that only end up letting their babies get very hungry and then eventually end up nursing anyway. 

At 11 weeks, you would be within normal limits to have a dream feed and 2 night feeds -- even if they weren't there a week or two ago.  And I know first hand how frustrating is it to have a first that sleeps magically well only to wonder why that's not happening with a second (my dd1 was one who did the df until morning from about 3 months on, ds on the other hand was still doing the df and 2 night feeds at 3 months -- he only lost one night feed around 7ish months, the dream feed at 10 months, and the last night feed finally went around 11 months -- and I don't think I did a single thing differently).  Their calorie needs shift a lot in those first few months -- and growth spurts, developmental changes, even increased activity during the day can cause them to be hungrier at night.  That being said, if you're getting the wakings where she just seems to be nursing enough to put herself back to sleep, I'd probably look to see if you can find some other causes.

I know in the books, Tracy says that babies don't need to be burped after the dream feed, but I never found that to be true with my LOs -- if I didn't burp them I got discomfort wakings later on in the night.  Sometimes holding them off with the paci is successful, other times you just end up with repeated wakings (which are generally hunger related). 

[sianipeters]

Have been trialling the bf df for last few weeks. The first week went really well with her waking at around 3am then sleeping through until 7am. Then we were struck with another cold and nights went haywire. Some nights she'd wake every two hours but not really wanting a feed or being upset and I could pat her back to sleep.this last week she's been better in herself but after her 10.30 df she's waking at 2am and then again at 5.30/6. The frustrating thing is that she often feeds ok at night but takes rubbish feeds in the morning. 
I don't know if it's related but her naps have gone really wonky too. She cries hard when im settling her, only has 30mins then wakes up crying. She will have longer at some naps but I'm struggling to get her in any nap routine now. I've tried having 1hr A time, 1.5 and less if she's had a rubbish nap. She's so grumpy because of sleep as she used to be so happy!
I feel like we have lots of issues at the moment!

[katie80]

Hi hon, could you give us an example of your EAS for the last few days and her current age and we'll see if we can figure something out to work toward?  Hang in there, there's so much back and forth the first several months.

[sianipeters]

She was 14weeks yesterday. We really are all over the place but this is an example of our easy..

E- 7am
A
S-8.30 (between 30 and 90mins)
E 10 (if she only had 30min then she is tired at this feed and so will have a nap after her feed)
A
S-11.30 (again, can vary between 30-90mins.)
E-1.00 (perhaps sleep again if had another short nap)
A
S-2.00 (very rarely get to this time as naps all over the place. Will let her sleep until 3.30 (usually 3) at latest regardless of nap history)
A-3.30
E-4.00
A
S-4.30 (always really fights this nap so often ends up only having 30mins. latest i will let her sleep is 5.30)
E-5.30 (tanking up)
A Happiest of the day. i wonder if it's because she's fed so often at this point...?
6.30 bath, song etc.
E-7.00pm bed
E-10.30 dream feed. usually 1oz of bottle then i breastfeed

This last week has been awful with her waking at 2.00/2.30 for a feed and then again 5.00/5.30 then again at say 6.30. Last night i shhh'd her back to sleep at 2am without a feed (quite easily) and then she woke at 3.10 anyway so that makes me think she genuinely is hungry at night. But then her 5something feed is often not very good and neither is her 6/7am one. She's going only three ish hours which is killing me. How similar do the times need to be for it to be a habit and not hunger? Within half an hour?

She has previously been waking at 3 something and then sometimes going until 7 but that has happened far fewer times than the above. I feel like I'm always making excuses for her- growth spurt, cold, jabs, teething?, but the bottom line is that she's feeding like a newborn.

She's ebf (wont take a bottle still) and i don't feel she has full feeds. I have plenty of milk but she only feeds for 10mins and will cry at the end of some feeds but wont latch back on to feed and once i stop trying to feed her more she calms down and seems settled for a short while. I struggle to get her to three hours for her next feed (especially if she's tired due to rubbish naps!) and i have no idea how I'll stretch her to four hours soon. When she was weighed last week she had dipped slightly off her percentile. I'm seriously thinking about switching to bottles as I'm convinced she doesn't drink much 

I shh pat her until dozy and once she's stopped crying and fighting she goes into her cot dozy and settles herself off to sleep for her naps. At night i put her down swaddled but awake and she goes off to sleep herself.

I'm just so confused as to what to do to help her. She's pretty grumpy now in the day and i wonder if i demand fed her she'd be happier but i really dont want to fall into that trap.

Sorry for long post. Thank you so much for reading x

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), that does sound tiring.  When you feed her during the day are you feeding just one side at a time or both?  A 10min feed wouldn't be considered too short at this age and it's sure possible she's getting all she needs after that, esp if she gets fussy if you try to feed her more.  You can always try to feed one side, give her a 10-15min break and then try to feed the other.  Is she getting distracted during feeds? Are you getting decent burps out of her? Does she seem gassy, refluxy, uncomfortable?  I don't think a slight dip off the percentile chart is anything for alarm, but if you feel like she's not taking good feeds, it may be worth posting on the BF board about it or talking with a lactation consultant. 

I think it's worth it if you want to try to stretch that first NF past 2am, since she settled easily with shh/pat the other night.  Even if she still wakes hungry at 3am, that's another hr and she may start going that long on her own.

I also wonder if she might need a small bump in A time, closer to 1h40min or so.  You may get more solid naps that way or at least be able to extend her easier if she does wake early.  It looks like she might be in a bit of an UT/OT loop to me.

[Caitlyns Mum]

Hi! My DS is 10 weeks and a lot of your sleep and feeding issues sound similar to ours! He's EBF too and I often wonder if he's getting enough. He often will take only take 10min feeds too. If I think that he hasn't had a 'decent' feed I will feed, change, let him kick around a bit on the change table (it has sides on it, so is safe) and then offer some more. Sometimes he will take it, sometimes he won't. I find particularly if he was trying to poo or was uncomfortable early in the feed, the break helps and he'll take more.

Our nights are also all over the show and I am hanging out for the NF to extend and/or settle into a better pattern. Often I'll be up every 3 hours too and they're horrible nights. Other nights will be more like 10, 2ish and then sometime after 6. DS has a dummy and i find it very handy to test whether he's actually hungry. if he is, ill be back up within the hour, but if hes not, he goes back to sleep until hes actually hungry. I am keen to stretch his NF, but need to be patient.

You sound like you've got yourself sorted - keep going, she'll hopefully stretch for you soon!

[sianipeters]

Thanks everyone.

She's only really taking from one breast although i try to offer both. She is easily distracted which doesn't help with a toddler in the house but i don't think thats her main issue. She was weighed again today and has only put 2oz on this week so another dip  She's so fussy today- had a 45min nap then fed poorly at 10 despite fussing from 9am. put her down at 11.00 and she woke after 30mins, after trying really hard to resettle her i fed her again- she took a fair amount and is now sleeping soundly again!! I'm finding breastfeeding her so frustrating i think i might give up, but wonder how much more stressed out i'll be when i can see how little she is taking!

Her nights have been regular ish feeding at 10.45pm, 2.30ish then up around 6.30ish.

I was so pleased with her day yesterday - taking 1hr 30 min naps after 1hr 30 A time -perfect! Haven't changed a thing but today she's been terrible with short naps and grumpy awake time.

I think the 1hr30 A suits her for now but i'm finding it difficult to then know what to do if she has a shorter nap- follow with a shorter A time? OT or UT?! How can you tell?

Should i place my bottle antics on the bottle feeding or bf pages? Still no joy with getting her to switch.

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), hon. I would post in BF, as you will not only get ideas about getting her to take a bottle, but you'll get support to help you continue BFing, if that's what you'd like. This can be a hard age for feeding with other kids around and major distractibility. Have you tried setting up your toddler with an activity and then feeding her in a quieter, darker place (or really soon after waking, so she's still a bit drowsy)? You could also offer one breast until empty, then give her a 10-15min break (change diaper or something) and then offer the other side. It does sound like your nights have evened out to pretty good feed times, so take heart in that.

I think the 1hr30 A suits her for now but i'm finding it difficult to then know what to do if she has a shorter nap- follow with a shorter A time? OT or UT?! How can you tell?

Typically, if she wakes decently happy after a short nap and you can't extend it, we'd consider that UT. If she wakes crying and upset and is often (not always) able to go back to sleep with some help, that would more likely be OT. Either way, after a short nap, you'd want to pull the next A time back by 15-20min.

HTH!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Just wanted to give some encouragement for getting your lo to take a bottle.  My son is 15 weeks now and around 10/11 weeks stopped taking a bottle in the day and fussed hugely over it at the df.  We offered a bottle before every feed,  had a 5 minute break and then fed as usual and after about a week he slowly started taking a bottle a day - but he always chose which one and never the bedtime one!  Another week of offering it consistently and he's taking his df again and taking a bottle at bedtime every night.  He still won't take one if he's not especially hungry,  and won't take ebm from the bottle,  but it's a huge improvement on where we were!  It was a right faff though,  but worth it.  I felt so trapped thinking I was stuck bfing and it made me almost wish i hadn't started So keep at it - it'll pay off in the end but you have to be consistent.