11mo with long night wakings and early starts

[Anstey]

Hi,

I've been posting on the PUPD board, but my problem has changed to one of night waking so I hope this is the right place to resolve this.

My DS is 11.5mo, he is generally sleeping through until he wakes but he is waking really early - my diary from the last few days is below.

I am pretty sure some of the time this is due to OT, but his naps are really variable at the moment - he either goes down a dream in his cot or just cries and cries until we take him out and then falls asleep instantly in the pushchair. Yesterday, he looked really tired for his pm nap but wasn't giving any signals of 'feeling' tired, but he went down without a fuss and we had to wake him after 90 mins, but in the morning he had had a hissy fit when I put him down and I ended up taking him out in the pram... Do I need to revise his A time?

His naps are now averaging 90 - 115 minutes a day so I am reluctant to cut them down any more unless this is fairly typical of the 2-1 transition - I'm not clear on this. He still has his morning BF, which I try to give to him any time after 5, sometimes earlier, but he doesn't fall back to sleep with it, so no APOP for me in the mornings!

If he does sleep in to a 'normal' time then he usually has been up in the night for 60-90 minutes. Last night was one of these, with him 'bouncing' whilst crying in his cot - if he had been standing, it would have looked like a bounce, but he was also doing it sitting and lying down - definitely not an angry hip thrust. He got up this morning and has been doing it again, so I wonder if it is a new skill....

Any advice would be hugely appreciated. DH is away on business and these early mornings are killing me!

Thanks, Anstey

Friday 24 May
Woke 4:20, would not resettle
BF 5:40
Slept until 6:50
Breakfast 07:10
Nap - 10:00 for 40 in buggy
Lunch -12:00
Nap - 14:20, 1hr40
Dinner - 17:00
BF 18:30
BT 18:45

25/5
Woke 05:00, BF would not resettle
Breakfast 07:00
Nap 09:00, 60 mins
Lunch 12:30
Nap in pram at 15:00
Dinner 17:15
BF 18:30
BT 18:45, would not settle. Apop, asleep by 19:30


26/5
Woke at 3:30 for 90mins
Slept until 07:00
BF at 07:00
Breakfast - 07:30
09:30 - nap in buggy as would not settle in cot. 45 mins
12:20 - lunch
14:00 - nap, 90 mins
Dinner 17:00
BF 18:30
BT 18:45

27/05
BF 04:30
BF 05:00 would not resettle
Stayed in room in dark with him until 06:00
Breakfast 06:20
Nap 08:00, 50 mins
Lunch 10:30
Nap due at 12:30, would not settle
Slept in pram at 13:15, 30 mins
Dinner - 16:00
BF - 17:20
BT - 17:40

Woke at 01:20 - took 95 minutes to settle, of which he probably cried for 80. I stayed with him throughout except to get water and cough medicine. Eventually got into his cot, but still took another 30mins from that point.
Woke at 04:00 - BF, started crying hard when I put him down. Assuming the worst I went and made up the bed in a dark room, he was asleep by the time I had finished!
Woke at 6.20 - BF
Breakfast 07:00

[katie80]

Hi hon, (((hugs))) that looks really tiring.

It sounds to me like you might have a few things going on... some developmental stuff with the bouncing (maybe a precursor to walking?), definitely 2-1 disturbances, and maybe some teeth (long/upset NWs often indicate discomfort, do you think he's working on teeth?).

As for the routine, I do think we need to revisit your A times and start cutting the am nap further. I actually think some of the EWs are UT rather than OT, because he's not having enough A time before bed on the days he takes a good pm nap. I also think he's fighting the am nap at times because he isn't ready to go down yet. Average A time for an 11-12mo old would be around 4hr and the times he's fighting are when the A is closer to 2-3hr. So, I think it would be best to push the morning A out to at least 3.5hr, let him sleep 30min, give him another 2.5-3hr A (you'll have to watch it to see how much you think he can handle) and then let him sleep for 1.5-2hr with BT about 3.5-4hr later. This will start you on the track to getting the two naps closer to the middle of the day and as you cut the morning one more, closer to one nap.

It would look something like this...
Wake 6:30 am
Nap 1 10-10:30 am
Nap 2 1/1:30-3pm
BT 7 pm

What do you think?

[Anstey]

Hi Katie80,

Thank you for the reply. I've been moving my BT to no more than 2 hours after DS, so I am coping sleep wise, although I feel like a child again!

I do think we need to revisit your A times and start cutting the am nap further. I actually think some of the EWs are UT rather than OT, because he's not having enough A time before bed on the days he takes a good pm nap. I also think he's fighting the am nap at times because he isn't ready to go down yet. Average A time for an 11-12mo old would be around 4hr and the times he's fighting are when the A is closer to 2-3hr.

It would look something like this...
Wake 6:30 am
Nap 1 10-10:30 am
Nap 2 1/1:30-3pm
BT 7 pm

Your reply at least confirms my sanity is intact! I had wondered if the A time was too short after reading some other posts, so yesterday went like this:

Woke up 6.20, BF
Breakfast 07:00
Nap 10:00 - 1 hour
Lunch 12:30
Nap 15:30 - 1 hour in pushchair (bit later than I had wanted but we were visiting a friend in a hospital so slightly out of my hands)
Dinner 17:00
BF 18:35
BT 18:45 - took 15 mins to settle

Woke 4:45 - BF

Put him back down, he complained for about 20 minutes before starting to cry.

I read somewhere on the forum yesterday that one of the moderators had gone and lay down in her DD's room pretending to be asleep, repeating the sleepy phrase for 'NWs' like this, so that was what I did, and bingo, after 45 minutes of protest crying, he eventually lay down and went back to sleep. I had to wake him up at 7!

It sounds to me like you might have a few things going on... some developmental stuff with the bouncing (maybe a precursor to walking?), definitely 2-1 disturbances, and maybe some teeth (long/upset NWs often indicate discomfort, do you think he's working on teeth?).

I did also wonder about teeth but can't see or feel anything and the bum shuffling is funny as it was his pre-cursor to crawling, so it looked like a regression, but you are probably right as he is standing all the time now and climbing stairs without knees, so definitely more upright in what he does.

A few changes to plug away at, thanks again for your help and I'll keep you posted.

[katie80]

Your reply at least confirms my sanity is intact!

LOL, for sure it is... but I know the feeling!

I read somewhere on the forum yesterday that one of the moderators had gone and lay down in her DD's room pretending to be asleep, repeating the sleepy phrase for 'NWs' like this, so that was what I did, and bingo, after 45 minutes of protest crying, he eventually lay down and went back to sleep. I had to wake him up at 7!

That's great!  Yes, it's often hard to do PD at that time because they get kinda riled up and more awake after having a decent amount of sleep.  I still think the A after his afternoon nap wasn't quite long enough and that's part of the reason he's awake for so long, but that's something easy enough to work on.

Keep us posted!

[Anstey]

We had a great night last night after both his naps ending up in the pram and only totalling 90minutes, so I was expecting the worst, but he went down just before 7, and woke at 5:45. I fed him and left him in his cot in the dark until 6:30. He napped for 60mins at 9:50 - I took 5:45 to be the beginning of his A time as he didn't go back to sleep, so he managed a full 4 hours, and has gone down for another nap this pm after a further 4 hours of A time.

He was sick three times over lunch though    - I am hoping he swallowed too much pool water at his swimming class this morning, so fingers crossed it passes as no other symptoms and I don't want his good sleeping to go wonky again!

[katie80]

Glad to hear you had a good night!  

Just FYI on the naps.  Some LOs do fine with 2x1hr naps like you are doing now, but with the ultimate goal of transitioning to one nap, it usually works better to start cutting one and letting the other one go longer while moving both (short am) or one (short pm) toward the middle of the day.

He was sick three times over lunch though    - I am hoping he swallowed too much pool water at his swimming class this morning, so fingers crossed it passes as no other symptoms and I don't want his good sleeping to go wonky again!

Oh dear ... I hope it's nothing more than swallowed water.

[Anstey]

Soooo, I know where my error came in but may need a spot of advice to fix it...

After DS was sick, I let him sleep for 90 mins in the afternoon from 3 to 4.30 as he was shattered, but it must have just been pool water rather than a bug as he hasn't been sick since and had no other symptoms. He was asleep at 19:20 after not settling (presumably because of the long nap) and then woke at 4.40 and wouldn't go back to sleep. I BF'd, I lay in his room, I lay in his cot - when I got out his cot he became hysterical (and then hit his head  ) so I got him out and we sat in his room in the dark for the last half hour until 6.30.

I am assuming his day should look something like this:

Nap 1 - down by 8:10 - for 30 mins
Nap 2 - down at 11:10/11:40 - for 1 hour (shorter than you recommended to try and squeeze in a 3rd nap)

And have a CN if he is going to make it past 5, so have that at 3:40 latest for 30 mins? and then early BT at 18:30

Does that sound sensible?

I am also convinced that he is waking early for a BF so I want to drop this - he only has one side at the moment anyway so presumably I need to go cold turkey and just have a rough few days as he isn't on long enough for me to cut out any time...

the ultimate goal of transitioning to one nap, it usually works better to start cutting one and letting the other one go longer while moving both (short am) or one (short pm) toward the middle of the day.

All of our activities fall across midday at the moment so I am in the process of moving these and then I can start transitioning.

Thanks for your help Katie80 

[PaulsMom]

hi,
sorry for not getting back to you yesterday.  how did things go? 

hugs for the ew.  that sounds exhausting.  Poor little guy!  If he wakes really early like he did yesterday, I would aim for two 1 hr naps rather than introducing a third nap. So a nap around 8 am or so and then another one around 12:30- 1 pm or so (depending on when he woke from his am nap).  Then he should be OK to last until BT between 6 and 7 pm. 

[Anstey]

Hi PaulsMom, and thanks for the reply.

I wasn't expecting a 'same day reply', I was trying to get my plan of action straight in my head, but wanted to test it to see whether or not I was doing the right thing under the circumstances, but thank you for replying.

He had a 30min nap in the morning, 70minutes before lunch and 30 minutes at 3.45. He went down fine but woke at 6. I kept him in his cot until 6.30, repeating the sleepy phrase - for consistency more than actually expecting him to sleep.

I dropped the morning feed yesterday morning and I think this had a knock on effect on his bed time feed as he fed for AGES and got very upset whenever I put him down, so took over an hour to settle, not going to bed until 19:30 and then up at 5:35 - again, kept in his cot, me lying in his room repeating the sleepy phrase.

He then had a 40 min nap at 9:50 and a 70 minute nap at 13:50. Took a while to feed again tonight, and when I put him down he cried, so I took him out, read to him and lay him down and he went straight off, but the time was 19:20 so had taken 50minutes from the beginning of the feed!

I haven't found lying down in his room helps since the first time - any other ideas as to what I can do to try and get him to sleep in later or get back to sleep??

[PaulsMom]

what's he doing when he early wakes?  Standing?  Crying or chatting?

I haven't found lying down in his room helps since the first time

  For my DS, this wouldn't work either.  He's too busy and would rather not sleep so I'd be a "distraction" from sleep  . 

WRT your routine, I'm assuming that your A has been pushed out to close to 4 hrs or so? 
At this age, I found that the biggest thing that helped my DS sleep well was physical activity during the day.  He's almost 5 yr old now and I still find he'll sleep better if he can just run around.  How much physical activities is your DS doing during the day?  lot's of crawling and cruising?  One of the activities that kept my son going was chasing balls down the hallway (we closed all of the doors so the balls were contained).  I would "exercise" him for about a third of his total A and then he'd sleep well for naps and at bt. 

[katie80]

Hi Anstey, you've gotten great advice from PaulsMom, how are things going?

[Anstey]

Hi PaulsMom and Katie80,

At this age, I found that the biggest thing that helped my DS sleep well was physical activity during the day.

We had a super active day on Saturday as we visited a friend with a dog and DS spent a good couple of hours chasing him round - so much so he kept having little sick-ups, so definitely physically tired! But come Sunday morning he was awake by 5.40.

Yesterday, he woke at 5.15 and eventually slept for another 30 mins an hour later but he had a sore tummy in the morning so wanted cuddles and didn't do a lot, took his nap late (4.5hours of A time) and I gave him 45 minutes. He then had 70 minutes 3.5hours later and slept until 6am this morning....

what's he doing when he early wakes?  Standing?  Crying or chatting?

He starts off 'calling out' and having the occasional play and he will be sitting initially, moving to standing. His 'tolerance' for being left on his own is about 20 minutes in the morning, at which point he will start crying.

I would "exercise" him for about a third of his total A and then he'd sleep well for naps and at bt. 

Now the weather is improving, DS and I are making sure we spend about 1 hour playing outside a day as well as our normal activities, so hopefully he will be having lots of exercise.

Hopefully yesterday was a blip and he is starting to sleep in a little later.... I'll keep note over the next few days and post an update again.

Thanks for all the advice, hugely appreciated.

[katie80]

My guess is that the pm nap is still happening a little too late, so he's a bit UT at BT thus the EWs.  Hope the next few days go better and we'll look for your update.

[Anstey]

So, three days on and no improvement on the early wakings (5.15 this am!) and he has also been refusing his pm nap in his cot for the last three days, so I've ended up taking him out in the pram, where he is asleep within minutes, grrrrr.

My guess is that the pm nap is still happening a little too late, so he's a bit UT at BT thus the EWs. 

I put him down for his am nap 4 hours after waking, but he just isn't ready for his pm nap 3 to 3.5 after he gets up. I could shorten his morning A time, so he goes down earlier, but I am also a bit concerned about moving all his meal times as I don't want him to start waking early because he is hungry.... Or should I be shortening his first Nap? He is desperate for his nap by the time he goes down in the morning.

So, does something like this sound sensible?

Up at 5.15
Nap at 8.45, 30 minutes
Nap at 13:15, 60-90 minutes
BT somewhere between 18:15 and 18:45 or is this too late?

Thanks,
Anstey

[katie80]

Hmm, that seems like a long time in between the CN and the second nap. Have you just cut it down to 30min? Are you sure he's not hit his second wind and that's why he's fighting the pm nap, but drops off immediately when in the pram?  At this age, I'd expect him to go more like 2.5-3hr A after a 30min nap (but he could be an exception, of course).  Otherwise, I think that routine looks fine. I wouldn't push him much past 13hr from wake-up, unless he's done a nice long afternoon nap (2hr or so).

How have the last couple days gone?