Author Topic: 7 month old waking 30-45 minutes after being put down for night- ut or ot?  (Read 20892 times)

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Offline Sjbc1019

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Hi

Our 7 month old just started staying up 4 hours before her first nap so we are trying to transition and figure out her new nap schedule so she's not going to bed at9 or 9:30.  Basically meaning if she naps over an hour for her first nap we try to get her to short nap by putting her down undertired.  Anyhow, with that we are trying to figure out her awake time then after a short 2nd nap and I think since we are unsure that is why we are getting the wake up after the initial put down.  We don't know when to put her down so are unsure if she is waking from overtired or undertired.

For the most part we have been putting her down at 3 hrs and she wakes 25-45 minutes into sleep crying.  We have been nursing or shush patting her back and she is usually down soon after.  However, tonight she didn't fall asleep with either and ended up just laying after our attempts then finally falling asleep on her own.  I think tonight she was undertired.  She has two 45 min naps today (both I thought she could have been undertired).  The other nights her 2nd nap have been 30 mins or less and those nights I can see that she needs to be put down much less than 3 hours.

Any insight you have is appreciated.  Once down she typically sleeps for 5-6 hour stretches waking up only once to feed.

Thanks

Offline katie80

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Wow, those are really long A times for her age.  She's doing a routine that would be geared more toward a 10-12mo old.  My guess would be that shes definitely OT in the waking after BT.  Has she always had such high A times?  I think I've replied to you before on a different board and I don't remember her having an A time that was that far off the average for her age. :-\.  Were you doing 3-3.5hr A and she was fighting it, or how did they get so high?  They may be right for her, I just haven't seen many 7mo olds with a 4hr A time.

As for the A time after a short nap in the afternoon, I'd try too keep it around 2.5hr.  What does your EASY typically look like?



Offline Sjbc1019

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I know 4 hrs is long- it's not by choice.  I think she has had a longer awake time than average for awhile but we have just figured it out in the last couple of months.  We increased awake base on short naps, fighting nap, waking after short nap happy and chilling in crib and waking during the night chilling for up to an hour at a time.  Based on previous moderator recommendations these are the reasons we have been playing arou d with increasing activity.  The 4 hrs just started in the last several days.  Our easy sun-tue

Sun

Awake-7:16
E-7:35-7:45
A-7:45-11:14
S-11:14-12:30
E-12:37-12:50
A-12:50-3:30
E-3:30-3:35
S-3:35-3:58 (nursed to sleep and did it earlier so we could do normal bedtime)
A-3:58-6:43
E-6:43-6:56
S-6:56-7:29, then woke 32 mins after, nurse back to sleep and slept for over 6 hours.

Mon
Wake-7:20
E-7:40
A-7:50-11:18
S-11:18-12:00
E-12:10-12:25
A-12:25-3:22
S-3:22-4:06
E-4:11-4:21
A-4:21-6:50
E-6:50-7
S-7-7:24
Woke after 23 minutes chilling in crib then crying.  Nursed and shush pat, finally left in crib where she chilled for 10-25 mins then fell asleep for 51/2 hours until waking. 

Tues

Awake 8:48( she woke at 5:45 chilling then fussing and I fed her and she slept then for nearly 3 hours.  She was up for about 45 mins chilling and fussing)
E-8:68-9:06
A-9:06-2:49
E-2:54-3:01
A-3:01-6:45
E-6:45-7:00
S-7:10

She needed a couple of mins of shush at but didn't wake up and has been sleeping now for over an hour.  As you can see we only did one nap today because she woke so late and had a long nap and we didn't want her to go to bed too late.

She has been crying out randomly in sleep more lately but she is asleep or can settle herself in a couple of mins at most.

Thanks for your help.

Offline Sjbc1019

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Just wanted to give an update.  She slept 6 hours, nursed, then 4 1/2, the woke chilling and fussing in crib at 6.  I let her lay for about 10 mins b/c it looked like she was tired and might go back to bed.  6 is early for her.  Went in and nursed her for 20 mins and she fell back asleep and is now sleeping at 9:06, nearly 2 1/2 hours later.  This is the second day she has woke chilling and little fussing in crib early then. Used and gone back to sleep until close to or after 9 (or nearly3 hrs after early wake and nurse).  What could be causing this?

Thanks

Offline katie80

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We increased awake base on short naps, fighting nap, waking after short nap happy and chilling in crib and waking during the night chilling for up to an hour at a time.
I do think that all of these can be indicators of OT as well, unfortunately.  They are more typical of UT, but depending on temperament, she may do all of these things and be OT.  Some babies wake happy and some wake upset no matter what. 

What happens when you put her down for a nap at 3-3.5hr?  Does she fight it, does she wake mid-nap?  Short naps can be very developmental from around 3/4/5mo-6/7mo.  Both my kids did them and would have kept doing them even if I pushed the A time quite far.  I'm just wondering if that might have happened with you or if she's really just a high A time girl.  It's possible that the A time has just gotten so high that she's crashing and sleeping through. :-\   

I don't see where the nap happened on Tues.  You said it was just a one nap day because it was a long one.  Could you re-post that for me, please?

Is she a completely independent sleeper?  I do think that wake-up after BT is due to OT, and I'm wondering why you're nursing her then, as she's just eaten before BT and it's only been 30min or so.  Will she not easily go back down with shh/pat?  Even if she was 10-12mo and doing this routine, I would suggest keeping the last A time to around 2-2.5hr, as she's had so much A time already in the day and not a restorative nap (one of at least 1.5hr). 

I hope this isn't coming across like I'm thinking you're doing it wrong, I'm really not meaning it to be that way and I don't want to discourage you. :-[  I just haven't come across a 7mo old with a routine like this before, so want to try to get a clearer picture of what's happening.

Oh... posting the same time as you.
What could be causing this?
Honestly, I think she's OT and trying to catch up on sleep.  There may be a bit of a nursing prop, but I'm wondering if she just isn't able to get herself back to sleep, because of the OT hormones in her body.



Offline Sjbc1019

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Hi

Thanks- her Tuesday nap was from 12:57-2:49, 1 hr 52 mins.  The longest before we're 1 hr15/20.

When we were doing 3.5 hrs she was waking around 28-45 mins happy and chilling in crib.

Do you think I should give 3.5 hrs a try for a few days to see what happens or keep the 4 hrs?

We usually shush pat to sleep if she wakes after bedtime early.  Last night she slept through for 6 hrs.

When she sleeps in like yesterday and today should I almost treat that as a nap?  Last night she was only up for 10 hrs (8:45-7) but only had one nap.  She is still sleeping at 9:20 and we definitely want her to go to bed earlier than that.  What do you advise?  Also, when she wakes at 6 like is morning should I have just turned on the lights and started the day?

Thanks for your help.  We just can't seem to figure it out!

Offline Sjbc1019

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I misspoke- sorry.  All of this is blurring.

Below are the wake and 1st nap awake to give you a better sense.

May 21
Wake 6:56
S-10:22-11:39

May 22
Wake 8:33
S-11:54-1:04


May 23
Wake 8:27
S-11:51-12:18

May 24
Wake 7:39
S-11:11-12:12

May 25
Wake 6:34
S-10:16-10:49

May 26
Wake 7:14
S-10:48

May 27
Wake 7:11
S-10:49-11:26

May 28
Wake 8:18
S-11:51-12:18

May 29
Wake 6:52
S-10:34-11:34

May 30
Wake 6:56
S-10:44-11:14

May 31
Wake 7:57
S-11:55-12:58

Thanks


Offline katie80

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When we were doing 3.5 hrs she was waking around 28-45 mins happy and chilling in crib.

Do you think I should give 3.5 hrs a try for a few days to see what happens or keep the 4 hrs?
For how long were you at 3.5hr?  From what I can see in the times posted above, except for yesterday there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference in the nap lengths at 3.5hr A and 4hr A.  I went back and read through your last couple threads and a month ago you were working at consistently doing a 3hr A time.  That's a big jump in just a month, so I'm wondering if she maybe just didn't have enough time to settle in at 3.5hr. :-\. It's really up to you what you want to do, but I do think the long A times are making her OT and causing the early NW and the EW.  Lucky enough, she's going back to sleep with nursing and then making up for the lost sleep in the morning.  If it were me, I'd go back to 3.5hr A time and set it more or less for a full week or two to see if she doesn't even out a bit.  So, do 3.5hr A first thing and again after a nap of 1hr+, but cut the next A back to 2.5-3hr if she does a short first nap. 

As for the early wake, if she's had less than 2hr day sleep and she wakes in under 12hr night sleep, I'd definitely just feed her and let her go back to sleep.  No need to keep her up at that time when her body wants to catch up on sleep.  I wouldn't however, let her chat and fuss for 30-45min and then feed her as that will be like a mini nap to her body.  At some point, you will want to start waking her within a 30-45min range, so you can help her to set her clock a bit more (just like you'll be trying to do with the naps).

What do you think?



Offline Sjbc1019

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Sorry for the late reply.  We started the 3.5 awake yesterday and we had to shush pat for both naps.  She was happy then once we started nap routine she was crying.  We put her down crying and let her cry then for 5 minutes before shush patting for about 5 minutes.  We are putting her down when she shows no sleepy signs( yawns, eye rub, etc but I understand those aren't reliable all the time and for some babies that show them it might be overtired at that point).  However, for the most part nap routine is pretty peaceful and if she fusses it is only for a couple of mins then she puts herself to sleep.  We hardly ever have to shush pat so having her scream and doing shush pat yesterday was not ideal.  She also woke from both naps crying which she never did before- she always woke happy and chilled in crib which is why we thought we should increase.  After the 2nd nap of 40 mins shewasreLly crying and usually when I go in she stops but she cried for 10 minutes off and on even while nursing.  She seems like she wanted to sleep more and seems tired.  After 10 mins she was fine and happy.  Bedtime- we put her to bed at 2 hrs 40 because it was 7.  We felt putting her down earlier she would think it was nap time (she did this last week).  She slept 25 mins then woke really crying.  We let her cry for 5 mins then went in for shush pat.  We did that for 15 mins and she was so upset so I finally nursed her back to sleep.  In total she was up then for 35 minutes before settling for the night.  We thought it might be that we put her down at 7 but lately she has been going to bed around 8 so maybe her body was not tired enough?  Her naps yesterday:

3 hrs 37 mins awake- 1 hr3 min nap
3 hrs 30 min awake- 44 min nap
Shush pat to get down, crying when she woke for both naps
Sleep- 2 hrs 43- woke after 25 mins screaming, back to sleep 35 mins later for 4 hrs45 mins until wake for feed.  She then woke at 6:25 which is a bit early for her- she use to wake around 7-7:30.

Today I held her and hummed and chilled starting at3 hrs5 mins so I could watch her.  She was starting to get fussy so thought she might be getting tired.  She showed no signs of tired when I held her but she stopped being fussy.   Did nap routine at 3 hrs40 and she started crying, put her down crying and let her cry for a couple of mins then picked up and did shush pat in crib for a few minutes.  She fell asleep at 3 hrs45.
for a couple of mins then picked up and did shush pat in crib for a few minutes.  She woke after 28 minutes  quietly and chilled in crib for 20 minutes with a few seconds of fussing but generally just hanging out. 

I put her down for nap 2 at 2:55 and she was a little fussy during routine and I put her down fussing/crying but I did see one yawn.  She fussed for 3 minutes then put herself to bed.  So happy with this since the last several naps have been shush pat.  Anyow, put her down at 3 hrs since she short napped.  She woke happy and chilling again after 30 minutes.

For her last nap I put her down at 2hrs45 by nursing for 5 mins then put her in crib drowsy but awake.  I did this because I needed her to nap as her last nap ended at 2 and there was no way she could make it to bedtime.  She slept for 30 mins- there was a bad thunderstorm so I think the thunder might have woken her.  For bedtime we put her down at 1 hr 50/55 and she was drowsy nursing so I put her down and she cried and screamed.  Gave her 5-8 mins to see if she could settle then went in and shush patted.  She seemed angry but quickly calmed and seemed tired.  She went down shortly after shush pat and now has been sleeping for 1 hr35 without waking after 1st cycle which she has been doing.  Again- she has been going down around 8 or later so maybe her body is not tired at 7:15 when we put her down?

I am so confused- part of me thinks she is overtired at 3 hrs30 and the other part thinks undertired.  I am even wondering if I should try 3 hrs15 as that seems a bit more normal for 7 months and I feel we are so all over the place.  With 3hrs 30 I am not sure if she is under or over tired but I am pretty sure 3 hrs-3hr15 she should be undertired and not overtired.

Thanks so much for your help.



Offline katie80

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Hmm, she's a tricky one, isn't she? I'm a bit confused as well! If you think she'd be UT at 3-3:15 A, then I wouldn't go back there.  I'd hold to 3.5hr for several days (a week or two) and see if she doesn't start to even out.

As for putting her down, I would not give her 5min of crying before you go to her.  Tracy strongly advised that even leaving a baby for 5min can break her trust.  If she's doing a mantra cry or moaning, then yes, leave her until she needs you, but if she's genuinely crying, respond to that cry and help her to settle. 

Are you ever able to resettle naps?  The A times are definitely long enough, if she only does a 30-45min nap, can you shh/pat her back to sleep?  Obviously, if she wakes and isn't crying that won't work, but at that point I'd just leave her and see if she'll go back on her own.  If she wakes and is crying, I'd go in and try to resettle. 



Offline Sjbc1019

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Hi

Sorry I have been away and wanted to update you and ask for guidance once again.  We were out of town and while we were out our LO started teething (looks like 3-4 upper teeth).  She was up almost hourly to every couple of hours during vacation.  I think her being in a dated pack in play of my MIL did not help with the waking.  As you can imagine she was tired during the day so we put her down in crib at around 3 hrs although on vacation she would cry so I would nurse her to sleep but regardless in crib around 3 hrs.  We had been trying 3.5 hrs in the last post but that was not proving to be working either.  Anyhow, at 3 hrs nursed to sleep she for the most part slept 1hr15 mins which is 2 sleep cycles for her.

We have been back now for about a week and her night wakings are better- only twice for the last several nights.  I don't think her teeth are what's waking her now although it might contribute.  We started skipping the 3rd nap if her last nap ends around 3 and trying to put her down as early as 6pm.  With that she was getting decent sleep at night so I think she was not as tired as she was during vacation.  When I tried putting her down at 3 hrs she screamed and cried then gave 30 some minute naps. She also was not showing sleepy cues.   I started extending her awake to about 3 hrs 15 and she starts showing yawns or eye rubs.  The last 2 days she has fussed for a few minutes then put herself to sleep and her naps have been 35, 45, and 52 minutes.  She wakes kind of fussing but happy when I get her.  I am thinking she is now undertired for the first nap now that she is not having as many night wakings as she did during vacation.  The thing that is throwing me off is:

She usually wakes happy and no crying or fussing butshe has been waking that way lately
It takes her so far about4-10 mins to go to sleep when it use to take a lot less

The other issue is about the second nap.  The last couple of days it has been 45 and 52 min naps.  I do not know when to put her down for the second nap.  Yesterday and today have been bad.  Yesterday her nap was 25 mins and today was xxxxxxx.  She cried and screamed today and I finally nursed to calm her then shush patted her for a minute or two.  Yesterday she was up 3hrs20 and gave 25 minnap and today she was up for 3 hrs 45/50I assume overtired for both.  Today I saw her rubbing er eyes and yawned twice at 2hrs50 but when I put her down she was screaming.  I picked her up and chilled with her until I nursed and shush patted to sleep.  I guess I am confused because I don't know what her awake time should be for her first nap so I know you cut awake for second if short first nap but don't even know what to cut from.  I try looking for sleepy cues and its so hard.  Yesterday she has none and I just put her down because I figured she had to be tired.  Today she had them at 2 hrs50 but then screamed and cried when I put down.  Finally down at  3hr45/50 and slept for 23 minutes woke up crying but happy as can be when I got her.

For night we changed her bedtime routine because she has been falling asleep at boo so we moved feeding to earlier.  She cried for 7 minutes then fell asleep for about 25 minutes.  We put her down at 2 hrs55 because the last several nights after short naps we tried putting her down earlier but she just wouldn't have it so she was staying up for 3hrs15-30 but then would sleep for 4-5 hours rather than waking up after 30-40 minutes.  Anyhow, she woke after 25 ins and we have been shush patting and calming down for 20 minutes.  I assume again overtired. Again- I do not know when we should be putting her down for the night after only short naps.  When we try to put down at 2-2 1/2 hoursshe does not want to sleep.  Nursing to sleep does not even work.

Eas the last several days

Fri

Wu 7:01
S-10:08-10:40
S-1:42-2:57
S- 6:34-10:43 first stretch
Sat

Wu7:33
S-10:21-10:48
S-1:52-2:17
S-4:47-5:15
S-8:28-12:25 first stretch

Sun
Wu 7:34
S- 10:52-11:37
S-2:54-3:21
S-6:30-6:56, back asleep with shush pat 7:29-11:40

Mon

Wu 7
S- 10:16-11:08
S-2:52-3:14
S-6:19-6:44, shush patting now for over30 minutes, lots of crying

She just turned 8 months yesterday.  I am so confused because I can't figure out naps and without knowing proper awake I can't get bedtime figured out either.  Should I go back to 3 hrs awake for first nap even though she does ot have sleepy cues?  They see to come later.  Or is she ut  for first nap and getting ot through day?

Please help!

Thanks








Offline katie80

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Or is she ut  for first nap and getting ot through day?
Yep, I think this is what's happening.  Before you left for vacation, you thought that 3-3:15 A would give you an UT nap and that's what you're getting.  I'm sure the 3hr worked on vacation because she was up a lot more and night and teething, both of which make babies more tired.  But, now she's sleeping better nights and the 3hr isn't enough. 

I would push that first A to 3.5hr and hold there for several days. If she sleeps at least an hr, I'd do another 3-3.5hr (you'll have to experiment here a little bit, as some LOs can last a full A time after an hrs nap, but not all). Have you tried resettling naps?  If she is UT at that first one, it may not work, but if she then takes another short one, I'd think you'd be able to resettle that one, so you don't have to do a 3rd nap and end up with such a late BT.

Is she still working on some teeth? That could be a reason for her waking less happy.  A lot of times SA can go along with teething at this age.



Offline Sjbc1019

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What do Ido if she sleeps less than an hour for her first nap? 

Also, yesterday she napped a total of 1 hr (2 30 min naps) and we tried to do a nursing catnap at 2.5 hrs but she would not have it.  She ended up going to sleep at 3 hrs40 mins- we put her down awake and she fussed but put herself to sleep in about 5-8 mins for 4 hours rather than waking up at 30 mins and needing shush pat to go back.  We were surprised as we were curtained she was way overtired (just by hours up- not sleepy cues.  She just started rubbing eyes when we were doing bedtime routine).  This is not the first time this has happened.  The last couple of weeks even if she has short naps and even short naps for 2nd nap we try to put her down at 2-2.5 hrs and she does not want it.  She will nurse then want to play.  I chill with her quietly then put her down awake and she will put herself to sleep.  We figured she would be so tired by the end of the day but she seems to want to stay awake for 3plus hours even after terrible naps.  Is she just exhausted so a ,e to stay up and sleep through for 4 hours or is this the correct time for her To go to bed?  Yesterday she woke from 2nd nap at 2:25 and put herself to sleep at 6:04.  We had tried to catnap but she was not having it.  We thought 5:30 was too early for bed and she showed is she wasn't ready either by staying up for 3 hrs 40!

I am going to try 3.5 today and will keep you posted.  It's nice to have a second opinion.



Offline katie80

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What do Ido if she sleeps less than an hour for her first nap? 
I'd try for an A time of somewhere in the ball park of 2.5-3hr.  It's hard to know as all babies are different and it takes some trial and error.  From the routines you posted the other day, I'd say she'd probably do best with around 2.75-3hr.

Is she just exhausted so a ,e to stay up and sleep through for 4 hours or is this the correct time for her To go to bed? 
It's hard to know. With my DD, I knew that sometimes she just needed to be in the right part of her biorhythm to go to sleep.  I'm not sure exactly how to describe it, but even if she was exhausted and I knew she should be ready to go down earlier, sometimes I just knew it wasn't going to happen until her body was ready to turn off.  Despite our best efforts, sometimes there's just nothing more we can do. :-\



Offline Sjbc1019

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First nap down at 3hrs21- was giving her time to fall asleep but she fell asleep on a minute.  Peaceful going to sleep but woke after 33 minutes.  I didnt want to put her down at 3hrs30 in case it took a nit to gall asleep and she got overtired.  Pm nap-Put her down around 3 hrs for next nap by watching sleepy cues and it took about 10 mins to fall asleep but again it was quiet and peaceful.  She slept 32 minutes.  For bed we went off of what she did the night before even though she had only two 30 some minnaps.  We put her down around 3 hrs 30 and it took her about 5-7 mins to fall asleep again peaceful.  She has been asleep for 2 1/2 hours which is Greg vs the waking up after 25-40 mins for shush pat.

I will put her down closer to 3hrs30 for am nap.  I do think teeth are bothering her some.

It just seems crazy that after such short naps she can stay up so long but this is day 2 of the short naps and long awake (3hrs30 or more) where she has put herself to sleep and not woken up for shush pat.  Do you think her pm nap should be closer to 3 hrs30 too even if she short naps?  She wakes pretty happy for naps, first was a little fussing but then happy.

Thanks for your help.