7 month old waking 30-45 minutes after being put down for night- ut or ot?

[katie80]

Sounds good, keep us posted.

[Ima shel Alon]

I am still needing to figure out when to put her down for pm nap if she short naps and if she takes an hour nap or longer.

That's a really complicated one to figure out, that's why I think that it's better to focus on figuring out the first A time and hope for the best with the second one for now. I really do think that you need to increase the first A time. If she was in bed after 3:20h A time then I would put in bed after 3.5h A time, but if she was earlier and fell asleep after 3:20h then I would increase 10min from the time you put her down before.

[Sjbc1019]

Hi

So, the last couple of days have been a bit crazy.  I increased her awake to 3hrs20-30 on Friday based on recommendations and it has gone terrible.  The first day I put down at 3hrs25 and fussed but took only 5 minutes to fall asleep and she slept 53 mins and woke happy.  The pm nap I put down at 3hrs31 and she fussed and cried by fell asleep in 6 minutes but only for 25 minutes.  I did keep her up a little bit longer just in case she did a short nap we could put her down at 6.  There was no way though that she was going to make it 3 hours until bedtime so we did a catnap in the car and put her down to sleep 13 1/2 hour day.  She woke after 38 minutes then was able to settle herself to sleep for a 3 hour stretch followed by a almost 7 hour stretch.  We haven't had a 7 hour stretch in nearly a month!

Sat- am nap put down at 3hrs30.  She cried/fussed for 5-8 minutes then put herself to sleep and woke crying 25 minutes later.  PM nap put down at 3hrs30 (again kept her up a bit in case of short nap early bedtime- total backfire) and she slept 23 minutes and woke crying.  I assume both naps were OT?  Short naps, waking crying, crying/fussing quite a bit when put down, etc.

Sun- AM nap put down at 3 hrs25, fussed for 5-8 minutes then went to sleep and woke 25 mins later crying.  We left her for a bit all the days but no falling back asleep. About 2 hrs after am nap she fell asleep in the car for 40 minutes, woke (I think the car door opening woke her) then 15 mins later fell back asleep for about 28 minutes.  She has NEVER done that.  Since we were completely off schedule then we did an early car ride again and she fell asleep 2 1/2 hours later in the car.

I assume she is exhausted if she has been sleeping so much and after such short awake time in the car.  The last couple of days we have had to do a 3rd cat nap in the car and she usually falls asleep in after 2 hours awake.

I am soooo confused about her awake time.  She has been getting a little fussy in the am before 3hrs30 and I have been so tempted to put her down but am trying to give the 3hrs20-30 a chance.  Her first day with 3hrs25 was a decent nap but the last 2 days have been 25 minutes and crying!

The PD at night has been going well.  She has been waking only once at night which is great.  It has taken anywhere from 15-50 minutes to get her to fall back asleep but it's definitely an improvement from waking 3 times a night.  She definitely cries out in her sleep lately but seems to be able to for the most part put herself to sleep.  She is doing longer stretches which I think should be helping with her OT but doesn't seem to show it yet.  She use to average 10.5 hours of sleep a night (in a 12 hours cycle so with all wakings  taking 1.5 hours on average.  She now has been averaging 10 hours of sleep because we have had to do the 3rd cat nap so she has been going to bed after at least 13 hours up.  She also has been waking up earlier than usual- 6-6;15.

So, some improvement at night but now the naps are insane.  Help!

Thanks!

[katie80]

Can you start using PUPD to extend the naps?  I just think there's no way she's waking from them UT.  She's either waking because she's OT or OS or really struggles to transition.

She does sounds really tired.  I honestly don't know what to say wrt routine, as I usually was able to figure out a correct A time for my LOs, either by trial and error or pure accident.  I do know, however, if they were up for 3.5hr and took only a 30min nap or less, they wouldn't have lasted much more than 2-2.5hr on the next A time. 

In fact, that was my DS's routine at 13-15mo (granted, he's never been a high A time guy; some LOs are doing this routine around 10-12mo)...

Wake 7am
Nap 1 10:30-11am
Nap 2 1:30-3pm
BT 7/7:30pm

[Sjbc1019]

Hi

So a few updates here.  The last 2 nights she slept continuously for 10.5 hrs and 11.5!  Amazing!  She still cries out a bit a few times a night and I am sure she will wake but she seems to be asleep and can settle.  I definitely think the pd helped and teething seems to be over for the most part.  We still can't quite get her bedtime right so I have been doing pd after she fusses then cries- but it usually only takes 5-10 minutes.  So night sleep has been good!

Naps are a different story.  Yesterday am nap- pd at 3hrs28, she played for 8 mins, tiny fuss right at the end then fell asleep in 10 mins total so asleep at 3hrs38.  It was very peaceful and I felt she might have been undertired.  She woke at 50 mins and chilled in crib, no crying.  Her pm nap was in the car- she definitely started getting a bit fussy around 2hrs30-45.  We had a play date so she fell asleep in the car but was crying when I put her in the carseat and for a few minutes of driving then fell asleep in just a few minutes of driving.  She fell asleep at 3hrs17 and slept 1hr5 mins although opened eys a few times but fell back asleep.

Her nap today am I nursed her to sleep.  At around 3hrs10 was going to start wind down and pulled her aay from a toy and she started crying then cried and screamed for about 10 mins or so.  She fell asleep at 3hrs35 and slept 54 minutes, waking quietly.  Was she undertired and freaking out becuse I was trying to wind down?  Or overtired?  The nap length and how she has been waking up makes me think ut now.  This is day 5 of 3hrs25-30 and I have had naps of 25-55 minutes although the last two days have been 50 mins plus.

Still trying to figure out bedtime and awake.  I don't know if I should increase am awake or what.  She wakes happy the last 2 days.  Her reactions before am nap the last 2 days have been opposites so not sure what to make of it.

Thanks

Thanks again for pd support- really think it helped us.  So glad she is now doing long stretches at night!

[Sjbc1019]

Also very confused about when to put down if am nap is 50 or so mins but before 1hr- shorten awake?  Yesterday she seemed tired before 3 hrs and today she seems fine.

[Ima shel Alon]

What you experienced is very typical when increasing A times - the first 2-3 days are OT but then LO gets used to it and settles into the new A. I would be careful to increase it more right now, I think you can give her a few more days of the 3.5h A time. I agree with Katie, if she gives you a short nap then I wouldn't do a full A time afterwards, maybe 2.5? I would follow her cues. And I also think that you should give PD a try with extending naps because maybe she just never learned to go through sleep cycles during her naps.

I am really happy that you see already progress at night!

[Sjbc1019]

So if she naps less than an hour decrease her awake by an hour to 2.5?  I thought 30 mins decreased was recommended so that is what I have been trying to do or at least look at her sleepy cues.  If she naps 50 mins or so also decrease by an hour or if naps are 25-35 mins?  Seems like she is doing the 50 min am naps making it hard to figure pm nap time.  Thanks

[Ima shel Alon]

It's just something that you'll need to try out. Some babies need the A time to be shortened loads and some don't at all.

[katie80]

Glad to hear about the nights, that's great!  And it's also good to see she's having some longer naps.  The trial and error is tough, but I agree it's really the only way to figure it out.  I always started with the smallest A I thought appropriate and went from there.  So, I'd start with 2.5hr regardless of nap length and work off that.  Hopefully, that first nap will start to be more consistent for you and you can get a better feel for the second A time. 

[Sjbc1019]

I desperately need help.  Although the last week she has been sleeping through the night getting her down for naps and especially bedtime has been terrible.  It takes over an hour. The first few days it was her constantly pulling up and me putting her down.  She would smile, giggle, and then cry.  I would leave once she settled or after several pd attempts and her just chilling.  The last couple of nights she has been screaming and really crying.  She has had terrible naps so we have been trying to put her down around 2nrs30.  We use to let her cry or fuss for 10 mins or so but we thought we would try the sleep phrase sooner when she started screaming.  It has taken over an hour to put her down the last 5 days.  Today we thought we would put her down at 2 hrs15 to try putting to bed earlier.  She cried and screamed immediately and I went in for pd.  I did is for about 30 mins then my husband stepped in.  (I have been doing it all as she seemed to be comforted by me and he works full-time).  She screamed and cried but interesting she does not really try to pull herself up for him.  She just lays and screams.  Anyhow, she did fall asleep finally after we put her down but it took 40 mins which is an I,prove net from the hour plus earlier.  It is strange because it seems like something just clicks finally and she commits to sleep- all five days this has been going on.  I know she has to be way overtired by the time she falls asleep- some days she has has been up for 4 hours after a 30 min am and pm nap. 

I am assuming she is beyond tired when we put her down.  We decreased awake to 2hrs15 tonight but it still took 40 mins.  I am thinking maybe we need to put her down at 2 hrs?  It has been exhausting.  The only silver lining is that once she is down she has been sleeping 8-11.5 hours except last night where she woke twice standing up in crib.  Since we were traveling with another family with a baby we nursed her both times to make sure she didn't cry and wake the other baby.  Anyhow- I don't she can be ut going down and can only guess overtired.

The other issue is that when she was sleeping through the night but taking over an hour to fall asleep she has been waking early-5:00-5:30.  Sometimes I can. Ruse her back to sleep for an hour or so and other days she is awake.  Again- I assume it is because she is way ot going down since by the time she falls asleep she has been awake nearly 4 hours (3 hrs tonight).  Since it takes so long to fall asleep and she wakes up so early we have been doing 3 naps and they have all been about 25-40 mins in crib or car.  She ends up staying awake 13-14 hours a day- I am sure this effects it too.  I can't even think about naps as the bedtime has been terrible.  I know we need to work on naps now too- one problem at a time?

What do you think-- I am going crazy and it is exhausting.

Thanks!

[katie80]

Hi hon, (((hugs))). Are you still travelling?  I think that can have a big effect on her settling if she is in a new place, etc. 

It also sounds like she might be dealing with some SA.  I would make sure you're not leaving her to cry at all, but going to her when she needs your help and doing PD consistently (i.e. only when needed and stepping back when not).  The milestone of pulling to standing can often be a tricky one for some babies and they will do it incessantly until its worn off.  It was not fun with my DS. Try to stay patient and consistent with her and give her lots of practice during the day and it should get better fairly soon.

She does sound quite OT and of course that won't help anything.  I wonder if you could AP some naps in the car or stroller for a few days in a row and see if that makes a difference at all in her settling at night and sleeping better.

[Sjbc1019]

We came back Sunday.  Sunday night it was like starting all over- took an hour to get her to sleep.  In the middle of the night it took another hour and then she woke a couple more times but put herself to sleep.  Last night she did 10.5 hours then woke at 5:40- I. Used back to sleep and she slept another hour.  I probably need to do pd when she wakes early, right?  She has been waking early for the last week and I suspect it is because she is ot?

Naps- yesterday had a 25 and 50 min nap.  When she woke from am nap (3hrs30 when fell asleep, seemed tired soputdown at 3hrs20)I let her hang in crib for about 15 mins then got her when she started crying.  Nursed her and she seemed really tired.  Then she was dozing in and out so for her pm nap I wasn't sure when to put her down.  It was either 2hrs45 or3hrs15 but she napped 50 mins.  We put her in the crib for bed at 2hrs45ish and she cried.  I did pd for about 15 mins and she fell asleep.

Today- down at 3hrs30 then asleep. At 3hrs35-peacefuland slept 1hr6mins.  Put down for pm nap at 3hrs27-she seemed a little ut.  Played, fussed/little cry, and talked to herself then asleep in 11 mins- pretty peaceful but only slept 30 mins and woke fussing/crying a little.

Question about pd- I am a bit confused as to when I go in.  Early it was mentioned when she is really crying then yesterday you said b/c of SA go when she cries.  Also- when I say my phrase and she calms from really crying to just kind of small cry/fuss do I leave her to settle herself or stay and say phrase?  For the most part seems to be able to somewhat calm from screaming but then does little cry when she tries to get up.  Not sure when to leave.  If no crying and just pulling up just leave too?

[Ima shel Alon]

She is perhaps tired from not getting enough sleep at night but it sounds to me that she goes down for both her naps UT and it's probably time for her to have a bit more A time. I would start and work on the first A time and hope for a better AM nap. Not enough A time in the morning and EW are connected so it could be the reason why she has the EW.

WRT PD it depends on you, your LO and what stage of the ST you are at. I think it's better that in the first days you stay in the rooms for the entire time till LO falls asleep, but afterwards when LO gets used to the idea then I would always leave the room and only come back when she needs you.
I used to put down after the BT feed and leave the room to give him a chance to just lie there and relax if he needed to. If he cried I went back in and as soon as he was quiet I would leave, even if he was still standing or about to pull himself.

[katie80]

Early it was mentioned when she is really crying then yesterday you said b/c of SA go when she cries. 

Sorry for the confusion.  In your reply you said that you 'use to let her cry or fuss for 10min'.  I'm not sure what type of crying/fussing that is, but if she's suffering from SA, I think you need to be more careful about responding to her genuine cries.  BW is never about a time frame/limit, but responding to your baby's needs/cries.  If she is genuinely crying, don't leave her.  But, I'd still use the really crying to assess if you pick her up.  LOs of this age settle better out of your arms, so unless she really needs the reassurance, it's best to settle her in the crib (or maybe you're only doing PD at this point, I can't remember).

As far as the other questions...

WRT PD it depends on you, your LO and what stage of the ST you are at. I think it's better that in the first days you stay in the rooms for the entire time till LO falls asleep, but afterwards when LO gets used to the idea then I would always leave the room and only come back when she needs you.
I used to put down after the BT feed and leave the room to give him a chance to just lie there and relax if he needed to. If he cried I went back in and as soon as he was quiet I would leave, even if he was still standing or about to pull himself.

I agree with all of this.  It really depends on her.  The SA might be a factor too and it will be better to stay in the room.  But, since she's been an independent sleeper before, it's fine to leave if she is quieting and trying to settle.  Some LOs this age settle better without the distraction of someone open the room.

Keep up the good work!