7 month old waking 30-45 minutes after being put down for night- ut or ot?

[Sjbc1019]

Hi

It's been awhile since I posted but wanted to ask a couple of quick questions.  We are definitely in the 2-1 transition with our 11 month old.  We have been doing 4-4:10 awake and she has been giving about an hour nap.  She wakes fine but it seems like she wants to sleep longer.  I think we probably need to increase awake- what do you think?

Our LO still is waking around 4:30-5:30 and 50 percent of the time she can go back to bed but the other times she is ready to start the day.  When she does go back to bed she is awake (sometimes in and out) for an hour or 1 1/2 hrs then will sleep until 7-7:30.  These wake ups are after sleeping 8.5-10.5 hours depending on when she went to bed.

The other question is about bedtime.  Even if she has a 30 min afternoon nap she does not seem to want to go to bed until at least 3hrs15-45.  Because of this it makes it very hard to have her do a reasonable bedtime.  Any advice on how to handle this?  If she naps an hour she wants to be up for another 4 hrs.  Se is hard to nap undertired.

Thanks

[Ima shel Alon]

Could you please post how your day looks like now? It will be easier for me to answer about the BT question if I can see her routine.

Sometimes it's not the first A time that needs tweaking, but the second and then the first nap also gets fixed. Also, when A times are getting very high and you need a full A time before BT there is not much time for the PM nap anymore and then you can slowly reduce the time of it, like from 40min to 30, then 20, 10 and then take it out completely and have her only on one nap.
Do you think she is UT for her first nap? Does she go down easily?

The EW is connected to her routine, by the sound of it. We can try and tweak things and see if it helps with the EW.

[Sjbc1019]

Hi

Mon
Awake 8:22
S-11:43-12:18
S-3:06-3:35
Bt-7:14

Tues
Awake 5:44
S-10:20-11:18
S-3:18-4:15
Bt-8:01

We'd
Awake 7:26
S- 11:31-12:28
S-4:08-4:37
Bt-7:51

Thurs
Awake 7:27
S-11:47-12:14
S-3:41-4:07
Bt-7:50-5:30

Fri
Awake 7:47
S-10:57-11:38
S-3:25-3:45
Bt-6:56

Sat
Awake 6:55
S-11-11:59
S-4:01-4:29
Bt-8:06

Sun
Awake 7:31
S-11:43-12:28
S-3:33-4:04
Bt-7:36

Mon
Awake 8:27
S-12:56-1:50
Bt-6:22-6:44, awake and nursed and back around 7

The week I posted she went back to sleep after nursing or on her own (she will be up for an hour)all but one day(mon night).  I am letting her fuss/cry if she wakes again as I wasn't able to with MIL visiting.  Also if she has less than 10 hours I am likely to nurse back.  She is usually waking anywhere from 4:30-6.  Sometimes she seems tired and other times awake.  I don't want to do wake to sleep as I do not know when she will wake as there is a range but 5ish is e norm.  Is there a way to take care of this if it is habitual waking by just letting her fuss?  She goes down great- will hang and chill in the crib for 5-25 mins without a peep.  Usually takes about 10 mins to fall asleep. She sleeps straight through around 5ish so usually 8.5-10.5 hours depending on when she went down for night.

Putting her down in the am around 4hrs-4:20 is pretty peaceful.  Today she fussed for about 10 mins then went to sleep. Most days it's a little fuss then down.  When she wakes she might cry for a bit, then settle.  Other times she just pops up and chills in crib.  Most times she is happy right away when I get her and other times she will be a little grumpy.  I think she may be ut due to the length of her naps and she doesn't seem too ot- I can see her yawning once she is in crib but not often before I put her down (might see one or two yawns).  I know signs are not reliable but she does seem to yawn when she is finally in crib. 

Like I said before I think we have the by figured out which is nice.  It seems like if she naps 30 mins or more for pm nap she will go to sleep at around 3hrs40-45.  If she naps 20 mins or so she can go down around 3hrs10-15.  With that said there doesn't seem to be much time for 2 naps even if the one nap is an hour.  If she naps an hour I hope she only does 30 mins at most so she can get decent bt.  During this transition is it normal for LO to either go to bed very early (10-10.5 hr day) or very late if two naps (13-14 hr day)?

As you an see we tried one nap today because if we would have tried a second nap she wouldn't have gone down at the earliest 5-5:30 as she woke at 1:50.  A nap at 5 or 5:30 is too late if she is staying awake 3hrs40 mins.  Even if we woke her at 20 mins she would have gone to bed around 9pm.  She was obviously ot as she woke after 20 mins (first time in months!). Please advise.  Part of the problem is we let her sleep until 8:30 this am.  She woke at 6 and I let her fuss for 30 mins then turned light on to nurse for morning but she was so sleepy and she fell asleep again.  We should prob wake her around 7-7:30 every day if we are trying to get her a decent bedtime, right?  I also have a hard time waking her from pm nap as I feel like she should sleep if she is tired but letting her sleep is pushing her bedtime.

Again, LO is 11 months.

Thanks for your help.  Sorry for all the questions.  Would love to get this figured out since her bt (except for early wake) is going well.

Thanks

[Ima shel Alon]

All what you are describing is very normal for the 2-1 transition, so you are not alone and you are not doing anything wrong.

The way I would go forward IIWY is push her first nap a bit later, so perhaps stick with 4:15h A time for 3 days, then 4.5h for three days. Then we can see because she might be able to do even more than that. I know that one some days you ARE doing that already but I think we would need to be a bit more consistent with it to figure out her right a times.  At the same time I would start and shorten her PM nap.
I can understand what you are saying here:

I also have a hard time waking her from pm nap as I feel like she should sleep if she is tired

but there is no way around it - we have to help them go through the transition.

If she naps an hour I hope she only does 30 mins at most so she can get decent bt.

And waking her will also help with that ^^^, she is not in control when she wakes up, you'd need to do it for her.
If she will have shorter PM naps then she wouldn't need a full A time before BT like she does now because the "not enough" sleep in the afternoon will make her tired enough to go down at a reasonable time, aiming for a 12h day.
When going through the 2-1 transition EBT is your best friend! Don't be afraid to cut some days short because you feel she is accumulating OT. I would say that as a first trial I would go rather for an EBT then stretching a day to 13-14 because one needs to fit a second nap in there

I don't think that her NW is habitual, because an habitual waking happens at the same time every night, so anyway W2S won't work. I still think that the NW is related to her routine and might get easier when her A times and naps are sorted.

[Sjbc1019]

Hi

We have been doing 4hrs40 mins this past week and she has gone down great but still is taking 1hr naps.  She has been waking around 6-6:30 so much better than earlier.  The problem is though that she has been doing 14 hour days.  If she wakes at 6 trying to do one nap is too hard as it would be pushing her to stay up and go to bed at 5!  So we have been driving to get her to nap 20-30 mins for a 2nd nap but it leads to 14 hour days.  I think doing this all week caught up with her as Friday night she woke at 4 and was up for an hour (I nursed too).  I tried putting her down at 4hrs55 which was a mistake after having an interrupted night.  She played for about 15 mins then cried and cried.  Nursed to sleep and she slept 25 mins.  I think if she wakes early and for a significant amount of time before going back down she can't handle the who.e activity.

Today I put her down at 4hrs45 and she slept a little over 1 hr and woke great.  I will keep up the 4hrs45-5 hrs(hope to push 5 hrs soon). 

I guess I am just stumped on how to handle the transition when she takes 1 hr naps and to do a second nap it makes her day 14 hours because she is waking around 5:45-6:15 on average.  Just keep doing this until I can get her stretched to at least 5 hours or she has a longer nap than 1 hour?

Thanks!

Sara Joy

[Ima shel Alon]

I don't understand how you day stretches to 14h
 
6 WU
6-10:45 A
10:45-11:45 Nap
16-16:20 CN
19 BT

She really doesn't need a full CN in the afternoon if she has a reasonable BT.
I wouldn't push the first A time anymore for now, I think she is giving you OT naps. I would let it settle a bit and then try and push again and reduce the CN to 10min or even get rid of it.

[Sjbc1019]

Example from last week

Tues
Awake-5:34
S-10-11:02
S-3:09-3:34
Bt-7:07

We'd
Awake-6:15
S-10:46-11:10
S-3:25-3:51
Bt-7:31

Thurs
Awake6:20
S-11-11:56
S-3:56-4:19
Bt-8:10

Fri
Awake 6:10
S-10:53-12:01
S-4:10-4:30
S-8:08

I am doing car rides to get the cn in and have been waking her at around 20 mins.  We begin bt routine around 2hrs45 from last nap but as you can see even witha 20 min nap she doesn't fall asleep until 3hrs30-45 even though I put her in the crib around 3hrs-3hrs20.  She will play and hang out and not make a sound for usually about 10 mins or so and falls asleep great.

So if I am keeping her up about 5 hrs, 1 hour long nap, 4 hrs later one car ride 20-30 min cn, up for 3hrs30 after cn that is 13.5 hours.yesterday tried a car nap around 3 hrs after 1st nap and she did fall asleep for 30 mins so I am going to try 3hrs again for cn.  In the past after a 25-30 min am nap I can put her down for pm nap and she can fall asleep around 4 hrs(I put her in earlier but she just plays and fusses for up20-25 mins) so a car np works best.  I think it is hard for her to take a reAlly ut nap but it seems to work in the car.

So, with that schedule of her waking at 6ish in the am- how do you recommend I proceed?  We tried keeping her up once 4.5 hrs after a 55 min am nap (when she woke at around 8:15 one morning so it wasn't t too early).  Anyhow, we kept her up 4.5hours and put her down around 6:20 and she was way ot.  Nursed her back and she was down for night after 7ishafter waking after 25 mins.  Once she woke and we let her try to settle then finally nursed she was down for the night.  I think 4.5 hours is too long after 55 min nap.

Thanks for your help.  I feel like we are almost there!

[Ima shel Alon]

If that's the case then you would need to stretch A times in the morning tiny bit more and shorten the PM CN to 10min. I would honestly try and set BT at a reasonable hour (with a 6WU I would do it at 19) and insist on sleep then. If she doesn't fall asleep and just lies there and chills that's ok, but she needs to be in bed by then.
1:20h sleep a day is not enough so I really think she will go down ok for the night without a full A time before BT, but if you think she won't then the only way is to shorten the PM nap even more.
The 2-1 transition can easily get stuck, that's why we need to keep on helping them all the day through it. And there is always OT when going to one nap, it's not something you can avoid. Her 1h nap in the morning WILL get longer after she has been on one nap for a while because her body clock will know that there is only one nap to rely on and will keep her asleep for as long as she needs.

[Sjbc1019]

Hi

It's been a couple of weeks since I last wrote.  We were battling sickness then daylight savings and I think we are finally getting back to normal.  I think daylight savings adjustment for the most part is fine.  However, we are still crazy with naps.  Before sickness we were doing 5 hrs awake the sleep 1 hr-1 hr20 mins then bedtime (so 1 nap a day).  However, this week it has been crazy.  Yesterday she was exhausted after 3 hrs and I nursed almost to sleep and she slept 1hr45 mins!  Today she slept in until 8:15 (after being up for 1 Hr 5:20-6:20).  She went down on her own at 5hrs30 (put her down T 5hrs10 but she banged her head on the crib and I had to tend to her). 

Like I said we were sick last week so our eas was a bit off but here's the last few days

Fri
Wake 7:07
S-11:03-12:09
S-3:57-4:22
Bt-7:45

Sat
Wake 6:38
S-11:34-12:40
S-4:15-4:43
Bt-8:31

Sun
Wake 6:37
S-11:48-12:23
S-3:33-4:05
Bt-7:22
(1stday of daylight savings)

Mon
Wake- 6:08
S-11:19-12:29
S-3:17-3:49
Bt-7:21

Tues
Wake 6:20
S-9:29-11:12
S-3:18-3:47
Bt-7:30

We'd
Wake 8:17
S-1:47-2:16
S-4:19-4:45
Bt-7:55

Most of the 2nd naps are in the car.  She was waking in the night at least once at very random times being up for 20-1 brand I have been nursing.  I always give her 5-10 mins to try to fall back asleep.  Last night for the first time ll week she did do a almost 10 hr stretch the woke for an hour then slept another 2 hrs.  The rest of the week she was doing 4-6 hr stretches.

I
The 1hr-1hr15 min naps make me think she is ut but when I push her out 10 mins or so she still naps the same.  She wakes hooy and chill or crying- random.  Should I just keep 5 hours and eventually her 1 hr naps will get longer or keep pushing her out longer in the am?  What about her sleeping so long after 3 hrs yesterday?'  So confused. 

I am tying to do a set bedtime around 7:30-8 (put down around 7:15-7:30 with asleep 7:30-8:00 if she takes late nap).  Should I do set naps rather than awake time?

Thanks for any input you have.

[Ima shel Alon]

She is about 1yo now, right?
I really think that putting her back on 2 naps have been messing with the length of the nap.
I would try and push A time gradually to what it used to be and reduce the PM nap to 20min and then perhaps 10min and then drop it all together.
You need to give her quite a long time on one nap till her body clock sets and knows it only has one nap a day to rely on.
Only then, if things don't work, I would try and set the nap.

[Sjbc1019]

Do I keep the 5 hrs-5 hrs10 min for awhile even though it has been only giving 1hr-1hr20 min naps?  Are you thinking if I do only 1 nap and/or 10-20 min 2nd nap that 1st nap after 5 hrs awake will get longer than an hour?

As of now her 2nd car nap is usually only 25-30 mins.  She seems to be set on about a 7:30 bedtime no matter when her 2nd catnap was or how long.  Today she napped 1 hr then a 30 min catnap in car after 3 hrs.  Put her to bed 3 hrs30 mins after catnap at 7:20 and it took her 10 mins to fall asleep quietly at 7:30.

When she wakes at 6pm it makes it a long day if she only naps 1 hr and 30 min catnap and she won't go to sleep earlier to make a shorter day.  Example- today she woke at 6 and fell asleep at 7:30pm.  We will see how she does tonight.  The last week she has been waking at least once a night.

Thanks!

Sara Joy

[Ima shel Alon]

that 1st nap after 5 hrs awake will get longer than an hour?

Yes, but it might take a very long time. The transition is very difficult and very slow, but it doesn't mean one is doing something wrong, just that baby needs more time.

But at the same time, if you say that she is doing ok on a 1:20h nap and another CN in the PM, goes to bed well for the night, no NW, no EW, then I wouldn't necessarily drop the CN all together. You can as well stretch the first A time a little bit more, perhaps by 10min and see if it helps.

[Sjbc1019]

Hi

I am beyond frustrated these days.  My LO is now having a hard time falling asleep and only doing 30-35 min naps at 5 hrs-5hr10.  She will occasionally do about an hour but wakes for a few mins crying after 30 mins then cn so teimester fall back asleep.  She was doing 1 hr naps and going down smooth.  Is she ot?  I have he to nurse her for naps as she is crying and can't settle.  Today she woke after 35 mins and let her cry for 10 mins but then it really escalated.  She was hysterical for the next 10-15 mins even after I turned on lights, walked to other room, etc. 

With the 30-35 minnaps after 5 hrs awake I do a car nap and hope she is sleepy enough to fall asleep after 2-3 hrs.  So far she has been able to fall asleep around 3 hrs after first nap.  I may have to drive 20-30 mins but she usually falls asleep for 20-30 mins.  Today I had to wake her after 20 mins as it was 4:20 and I was concerned about bedtime.  I thought she would be exhausted so I tried to put er down earlier (around 3 hrs) and she was hysterical.  I brought her out and let her play.  I did this twice.  It basically took an hour for her to fall asleep (letting her play).  After about 3hrs40 mins up shelet me ly er down and she was fine and played quietly for about 15 mins then finally went to sleep.  Usually she does stay up 3hrs30-4hrs after 2nd catnap.  It's so annoying because I am trying to put her down earlier (for naps and bedtime but it is not working).  This is the 2nd night I tried to put her down earlier than normal but by the ti e she fell asleep shewas up light a normal night.

The other issue is that she has been having 2wake ups during the night!  Usually one arou d 11-12 and then another 3-4 hrs later.  She is doing 4-5 hr stretch the first hall then 3-4 the second half.  I nurse briefly and she goes down easy for first wake and will usually be up for 10-15 mins quietly for the second wake.  I have been going to her pretty immediately as my mother in law was in town and I did t want to wake her. 

So she is having terrible naps crying when she wakes and multiple night wakingsbut going down eventually peacfully for bedtime.  I assume ot?  I don't think it is teething or discomfort.  Do I go back to 4-4.5 hr awake for first nap and start over again?  So frustrating!

It's hard too because if I keep her up for 5plus hours for am nap and she ny naps 30-35 mins then it makes the afternoon tough.  Try to do late nap like today ending at 4:20 then her not going to bed until 8 or skip pm nap and try to put her down around 6 (she woke at1:15 after35 min nap)?

Thanks for your help.

[Ima shel Alon]

How old is she now?

The 2-1 transition is a really hard one, I know, and I feel for you. But you WILL figure this out.

I am not sure at all that she is OT, but it's really hard to tell because everything you describe can be either OT or UT. I would try a few days with shorter a time in the morning and see if it help, but if not then there might be something else going on.
Have you considered SA?