5 month old EASY gone wonky! Please help!

[Ima shel Alon]

If the last A time was so long then I think the NW are related to that. I wouldn't wake him up earlier in the morning, but keep on offering the CN until his A time is longer throughout the day and he doesn't need it anymore. Even if he is laying quietly in his cot it's better than no CN at all. But at this stage, because the transition to 2 naps can be hard on some little ones, many mommies AP the CN. Is there an AP that can work for the CN? The buggy? A drive? A swing? Anything?

[fairypk]

Sorry to intrude having a similar problem with my DS who will be 5 months in another week so watching how things go with you - good luck with the NWs , we have one day with no NW and some days with multiple NW so I know how frustrating it is

Hugs

[Kymmi13]

Hi.  I'm back for another update on where we're at.  The passed 4 days, we've been able to eliminate the CN with a combination of increasing the A time (currently at 2 hrs and 40 min) and 2 naps of 1 hr 30/45 min.  DS is still waking at night; sometimes as early as 3am and other times at 5am.  I'm wondering if it will just take some time for him to drop the NW?  Perhaps when we are at 3hrs A time and 1.5 hrs for each nap?  Or do you think it just takes a few days for him to get into a rhythm with the new A time?  Should I be still increasing it until 3hrs?  He will be 6 month on 7/15.

Here's the EASY for the past 4 days:

Sunday 6/30
2:30am starting to make some noise
3am bottle fed 5oz and had a soiled diaper (perhaps that's why he woke up?)
4am back asleep
7:10am woke him to start the day
E 7:15am breastfed
A
S 9:37am - 10:40am
E 11am bottle 6oz
A
S 1:20pm - 4:10pm had to wake him up
E 4:20pm bottle 6oz
A
S 6:50pm BT

Monday 7/1
5:23am crying
5:30am bottle 4oz
7:30am woke him to start the day
E 7:40am breastfed
A
S 10:10am - 11:55am had to wake him
E 12pm bottle 6oz
A
S 2:40pm - 4:30pm had to wake him
E 4:35pm bottle 6oz
A
S 7:10pm

Tuesday 7/2
6:20am crying
6:25am breastfed
7:30am woke him for the day
E 7:35 breastfed again to start the routine
A
S 9:40am - 11:30am had to wake him
E 11:50 bottle 6oz
A
S 2:10pm - 3:50pm
E 4:20 bottle 5oz
A
S 6:30 asleep feeding, woke up while burping
S 7/7:10 finally settled back to sleep

Wednesday 7/3
5:18am started to make noise
5:35am more and more noise
5:40am bottle 6oz
7:30am woke him for the day
E 9am bottle 6.5 oz
A
S 10:15am - 12pm had to wake him
E 12:30pm bottle 6oz
A
S 2:45pm - 4:15pm
E 4:30pm bottle 6oz
A
S 7 BT

Thursday 7/4
3:30am complaining
3:35am bottle 6oz
6:20am complaining
6:25am breastfed in the dark and he fell back asleep
6:45am - 8am AP and let him sleep on nursing pillow
E 8am offered bfed again, but he didn't take
A
S 10:15am - 12:05pm had to wake him
E 12:15pm bottle 6.5 oz
A
S 2:45pm - 4:30pm had to wake him
E 5:10pm bottle 7oz
A
S 7:10pm

Any suggestions would be so appreciated.  Should I be started the day if he wakes at 6:20am?  I'm just not quite sure what to do during those situations.  I would ideally like the day to be 7/7:30 - 7/7:30.  But, I suppose 6:20 is close enough?  Should I still be pushing his A time up and his nap duration down?  Do I need to just wait a few days...few weeks for the routine to "stick"?  Or is his NW normal because he's such a big boy (20 lbs and wearing 9month clothing) and he really is hungry?

Thank you so much.....

[katie80]

He's doing well with the A time push, that's great!  Is there a reason you're waking him from naps?  If you're doing just two, I don't think there's any harm in letting him sleep the full 2hr.

It looks to me like he might be genuinely hungry.  I think I mentioned before that my DS was also big at this age (20lb at 6mo), and he did still have two BFs at night at 6mo. Your LO seems to be taking a full feed at the NW and then another one in the morning, so that sounds like hunger to me.  This might settle down as you get started on solids in the next month.

[Kymmi13]

Hi.  I was capping his naps because I thought he was getting too much day time sleep.  If I let him go 2 hrs each, that's 4 hours total day time sleep and then we want 12 hrs at night - I thought 16 hrs total would be too much and might cause his NW? 

Btw - he did sleep through last night and we had to wake him at 7:30am today!  The only caveat is that he did have a small cry-out at 10:30pm that lasted for 7 minutes but I think that's more related to over stimulation from going out to dinner.

We've had a couple of nights that he slept through and I noticed that he had just 3 or 3.5 hours of sleep.  So, I was calling his naps based on that.  However, I know he had one day that he slept 4 hours total and still slept through.  So, I'm still just confused on what to do.  Yesterday. He had a total of 3.5 hrs for his naps - 1 hr and 45min each.  And his A time was exactly 2 hrs 40 min each time.  BT was 7:10pm and we woke him at 7:30am.  Do you think we should just let him sleep 2 hrs each nap and wake him exactly 12 hrs from BT?

I just want to be consistent and make sure we're doing him right.  We do go to him when he does wake at night and he eats and puts himself back to sleep quickly.  So, I agree that is is probably hunger.  We have started solids but just a few ounces for the entire day.

[Ima shel Alon]

Is there a reason you're waking him from naps?  If you're doing just two, I don't think there's any harm in letting him sleep the full 2hr.

I was thinking the same thing. If he stays asleep and doesn't wake up after 1.5h I would let him complete 2h naps.
2X2h naps and a good night is what I would tell anyone to aim for at this age after CN is dropped. Only if you get problem in the future (and I don't include the NW you currently have as a problem) THEN it would be time to cap the naps.

And I also agree with Katie about hunger, it sounds like he wakes up 'cause he is hungry, which is fair enough, yk?

It sounds like you are doing great all ready, well done for the progress!

[Kymmi13]

Hi There,

So, he had a NW last night at 3:20am and he really tried to work through it.  He started off with grumbling to himself for a bit and tossing and turning and then sucking on his thumb.  Finally, at 3:40am, he started to complain and we fed him a bottle and he ate 6oz and quickly went back to sleep and we woke him this morning at 7:30am.  He had the same schedule yesterday as the day before (and he slept through the night that day), so, I guess we're just in that pattern of sleeping through 1 night and then going through a string of nights with NW.  As long as I'm not doing anything "wrong" with the schedule, I'm perfectly happy to feed him whenever he is asking for food during the night.  It varies each night, so, I don't think it's habitual. 

So, my next question:  Should I keep his A time where it is? He's currently on 2hrs 40minutes.  He will be 6 months on 7/15.  If I do keep his A time steady, when do I know to start to increase it again? 

Thanks for all the help!

[Ima shel Alon]

You know to start and increase A time either when you get short naps (45min-1:20h) or he is hard to settle for a nap, or when you have cot parties at night

[Kymmi13]

As his A time increases, do I start to cap his naps to fit it all in the 12 hour day?  Or does his days start to go to 12.5/13 hrs and his nights decrease? 

Today, he woke at 445am and tried to resettle himself but couldn't.  We ended up feeding him at 5:10am (5.5oz) and he ended up falling back asleep within 10 minutes until we woke him at 7:05am.  First nap didn't start until 9:55am, so, he did 2hrs and 50min A time.  If I let him sleep the 2hrs (which I think he probably will), and then his next A time is at least 2hrs 40min, should I then cap his second nap to 1.5 so his bedtime doesn't get pushed out?

[Ima shel Alon]

Yes, you could cap the second nap at 1.5h.

I wouldn't start capping naps unless it's necessary. There are many babies who are doing 2 naps, 3h A time and their day is 12h long, in this case often the last A time is not a full A time, which many babies anyway don't need. Your day can look like this:
7 WU
7-10 A
10-12 S
12-15 A
15-16:30/17 S
19-19:30 BT

He is going to be at 3h A time for a while, so we can worry about capping naps later, when he is older. Of course, if you notice that 2 naps of 2h each is too much day sleep for him then you can cap it at 1.5h.

[Kymmi13]

Hi again.  I'm back for another update and to get some more advice.

DS will be 6 month in 5 days.  He's been on 2hr 40/45 min for at least a week now and he does have a variable NW.  He seems to go a few days with a NW and then he'll sleep through one night and go right back to his usual NW. 

This morning, he woke at 4:45am with his usual light grumbling and I watched him in the monitor.  He started rolling from tummy-to-back and then back-to-tummy and then would suck his thumb and try to settle.  He did this 10-15 times and I was almost convinced he was going to be up for the day.  His grumbling increased but he never really cried.  We ended up feeding him at 5:05am and he ate 5oz (that's all that was in the bottle), burped and fell asleep within 5 minutes and we woke him at 7am to start the day. 

2 days ago, he had the exact same schedule and he did not have a NW.  So, I guess there are some night that he wakes and some he doesn't?  We have been feeding him solids throughout the day for about 3 weeks now.

Here are some questions (pardon the randomness, I just have a lot of things on my mind):

1.  Should I introduce a dream feed in hopes to stop the NW?  His "usual" NW occurs around 4/5am, however, there has been times where he woke at 2/3am.  If I do a dream feed, what time should I do it?

2.  If no dream feed, should I attempt to wean him off the NW by giving him less and less milk in the bottle? 

3.  If "no" for 1 & 2, I've read that I can do a "scheduled awakening" which means I would go in there 15-30 minutes prior to his usual wake up and feed him.  I do this for a few days and then stop and see if he still wakes.  Would you recommend this approach?  If I go this route, what time should I wake him to feed him?

4.  If "no" for 1 & 2 & 3 and I just need to continue to feed him when he wakes, when should he STOP with the NW?  As I stated earlier, he goes a few days with NW and then sleeps through.  He's even had 2 nights that he had no NW back to back and then went back to NW. 

5.  Yesterday, he had a shorter than usual first nap; 1 hr 10 minutes.  His second nap, he made up for it with 2hrs.  I kept both A times at 2 hrs 45.  Do you think he's ready for another bump or was this just a fluke and I should just keep an eye on him? 

6.  I think he's starting to teeth.  He gets super irritable about an hour after wake up and he wants to gnaw on everything.  He bites down really hard on our fingers and other objects and sometimes cries in frustration.  I've given him different teethers and even cold ones and it's hit-or-miss.  As of right now, it doesn't seem to affect his sleep other than making him want to go to sleep sooner; we don't give in and try to distract him with various toys and water play.  Just wanted to throw that in there so you can get the entire picture of what's going on with him.

Thank you so much for your guidance.

[Kymmi13]

Sorry- forgot to mention:

Today, I pushed his first A time to 2hrs 55 minutes and he fell asleep right at the 3hr mark.  I had to wake him after 2hrs of sleep.  I will keep the same A time of 2hrs 55 min and see what he does for his second nap.  If he's at 2hrs 55min - when should I start capping his naps at 1.5hrs?

Also, you had mentioned that he may start sleeping through once solids are introduced.  How and why is that?  I though sleeping through had nothing to so with how full their tummies are.  Also, he's been on solids for 3 weeks now and still has the same pattern of NW.

[Ima shel Alon]

1.  Should I introduce a dream feed in hopes to stop the NW?  His "usual" NW occurs around 4/5am, however, there has been times where he woke at 2/3am.  If I do a dream feed, what time should I do it?

A DF is always worth a shot, but TBH, IIWY I wouldn't. It sounds to me like he needs some more A time (how long are his naps right now? I am not so sure he is hungry because he is just lying there and not crying and that would usually indicate UT.

2.  If no dream feed, should I attempt to wean him off the NW by giving him less and less milk in the bottle?

Are you referring to the 4-5AM NW? He is not actually asking for the bottle, right? It's you who decide to settle him like that, or did I get it all wrong? If you leave him alone without going in and feeding him will he go back to sleep?
If you think that he is dependent in this bottle to fall back to sleep then you can try and wean it, but I will only do it after the 6m GS.

If "no" for 1 & 2, I've read that I can do a "scheduled awakening" which means I would go in there 15-30 minutes prior to his usual wake up and feed him.  I do this for a few days and then stop and see if he still wakes.  Would you recommend this approach?  If I go this route, what time should I wake him to feed him?

TBH I never heard of it and therefore I don't feel I can give an advice regarding that.

If "no" for 1 & 2 & 3 and I just need to continue to feed him when he wakes, when should he STOP with the NW?  As I stated earlier, he goes a few days with NW and then sleeps through.  He's even had 2 nights that he had no NW back to back and then went back to NW. 

I think he will stop having NW when his routine is spot on which sometimes takes a while to achieve.

Yesterday, he had a shorter than usual first nap; 1 hr 10 minutes.  His second nap, he made up for it with 2hrs.  I kept both A times at 2 hrs 45.  Do you think he's ready for another bump or was this just a fluke and I should just keep an eye on him? 

Is it just one day you got a short nap in the morning? I would increase the first A time by 10-15min and see if there is a change.

If he's at 2hrs 55min - when should I start capping his naps at 1.5hrs?

When your day doesn't fit anymore or when there is still NW which seems UT.

Also, you had mentioned that he may start sleeping through once solids are introduced.  How and why is that?  I though sleeping through had nothing to so with how full their tummies are.  Also, he's been on solids for 3 weeks now and still has the same pattern of NW.

I can't remember when any of us said that 

[Kymmi13]

Yesterday his A times were 3 hrs and his first nap I had to wake him after 2 hrs and his second he woke on his own after 1.5 hrs.  His A time before bed was 2 hrs 40.

He had a NW at 3am today, and we waited 15min to see if he would resettle.  He didn't and so we fed him and he went back to sleep.

When he has his NW, he usually starts off with low grumbling and then escalates to very loud grumbling and complaining after 10-15 minutes.  He does end up with crying if we don't respond.  I have let him lay on his own for up to 40 min and he does not resettle.  It was only recently that he learned how to roll back onto his tummy (he could only roll from tummy-to-back until 3 days ago) and since then, when he has his NW, he rolls back and forth complaining.  When we feed him, he eats almost the entire bottle (5-6oz) and then is asleep within 2-5 min until his wake up at 7am.

How long should I wait before changing something?  And what should I try next?

[Kymmi13]

Also, katie80 said in her last post that things may settle down once he starts solids - just wondering how this works since I thought food wasn't related to NW.