Author Topic: Dropping the 3rd bottle  (Read 2854 times)

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Offline Skadiver13

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Dropping the 3rd bottle
« on: June 18, 2013, 16:07:00 pm »
So we still haven't done the milk trial yet. Plan on doing that next week when I'm home all week in case he's got issues. However since his growth spurt at 12 months his solids intake has gone back down but his bottle intake stayed up. He's getting between 21-24oz a day of elecare in 3 bottles. He LOVES his bottle. Here is our routine thus far

Wake 6
Eat solids 6:30 I cook a scrambled egg (he'll eat maybe 1/2 if that), usually a veggie like asparagus or peas, and bread with jam cut into small pieces. This morning it was egg he ate  1/2 a homemade blueberry muffin he ate a 1/3 and then I cut up some fruit since he didn't want anymore egg or muffin. I don't offer fruit at most meals as then he'll refuse anything else but occasionaly i'll give it to him after a meal if he's eaten better like this morning. Most times if he refuses everything I'll give him a toy and then he'll just eat what I put into his mouth until he gets bored.
About 45min later he starts whining and clinging and I know he wants his bottle. He downs 8oz almost every time. I do offer water in a sippy cup with a straw at all meals and snacks and through out the day. he usually eats about 1oz or so at meals and then a few sips here and there throughout the day.
He gets a snack around 10. Usually about 5oz of coconut yogurt (almost a full container) sometimes a fruit puree pouch about 4oz or some cut up fruit.
He naps about 2-3hrs
Lunch solids after his nap. You'd think he'd be starving but this is his worst meal. He rarely eats anything. I usually offer sliced turkey (nitrate free), 2 veggies like avacado, and steamed sweet pepper. All things he likes. It doesn't really matter what I offer. I can usually get him to eat some puree because he's distratcted my his toys.
About 45 min later he wants his bottle. He'll eat around 6-8oz. But usually the lesser amount.
Dinner time is a bit compressed but he eats well
BT bottle. Usually 6-8oz

I think it's time to stop the Afternoon bottle I think he's holding out for it? Possibly the AM one too but since we haven't done the milk trial and that's all the dairy he gets right now I can't drop the AM one. He doesnt' like drinking formula out of his sippy straw cup he will take a sip or two then realize it's not water and stop and just play with it. Any ideas? should i wean the bottle by offering less and less so he's starving by dinner? Or just go cold turkey and offer it all in a sippy.

He gets really really whiny when he wants his bottle. Really the only time he ever whines. It's kind of funny because he hated it up until a few months ago would just eat until he's barely satisfied then it was a struggle to get him to drink the rest. Who knows.
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Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 14:34:46 pm »
Anyone?
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Offline Lolly

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 16:08:45 pm »
I would just not offer the daytime bottle - offer the milk in a cup and if he wants it he will have it. If he starts whining for it you can keep giving him the cup and let him decide if he wants it.

It's not really surprising that he's not that hungry at lunchtime really, he has a fair amount in the morning with the milk and yoghurt and the other bits he eats. Don't forget their tummies are still small at this age - about the size of their fist I believe.

I know he can't have dairy, but they only need anout 12oz of dairy to get their needs met and his formula is designed to be an equivalent substitute so he is getting double what he needs - formula is also quite filling.

Laura


Offline Haribo2012

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 16:57:15 pm »
Hi we only have bedtime bottle now, everything else is in a spout cup, or sippy cup. My LO is 13 months today but he loves finger food, could u offer finger food at bottle time as a distraction?
Zoe


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 17:20:01 pm »
I want to keep the 2 bottles for now because he can't have dairy so no cheese etc. He only gets what he needs from his formula. So the 2 have to stay for now to get at least the 12-15oz he needs per day. However I will drop that 2nd bottle and offer a sippy cup with a straw and see how he does.

Zoe does your son prefer the straw or spout cup?
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Offline Haribo2012

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 18:02:02 pm »
He quite likes a nuby one that is shaped a bit like a bottle but has a soft silicone type spout. He walks around swigging from it thinking he's very clever ha ha!!
Zoe


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 19:12:56 pm »
LOL thanks. Liam loves to drink water out of his straw sippy but once he figures out its formula he doesn't want it anymore.. I was thinking somethign more bottle like for formula he might like
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Offline Haribo2012

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 19:17:21 pm »
They like to keep u spending trying different products out ;-)
Zoe


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 19:20:30 pm »
LOL yes they do.
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Offline Lolly

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2013, 20:42:53 pm »
I was thinking somethign more bottle like for formula he might like

He might, BUT you need to be working on dropping bottles not replacing a bottle with something similar, it would be a better idea to choose one type of sippy/ straw or open cup and just stick to that! ;D They are clever these toddlers - if they can find a way to get you to give them what they want they will ;)!!

Laura


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 21:33:38 pm »
he surprised me. I put him on my lap in front of the TV where he usually drink his bottle because it keeps and distracted. And he drank about 5 ounces with no problem. Pleasantly suprised.bhe still didn't want lunch and dinner was spotty but its good progress.
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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 21:51:46 pm »
Just moving you to the Toddler food board :)



Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 22:10:26 pm »
Oh thanks :) keep forgetting he's a toddler
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Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2013, 19:55:37 pm »
Ok so it's gone a bit down hill. He is refusing the sippy with milk. I offered it to him today and he just sipped a bit than refused. Then starting throwing a fit about 20min later. Offered the sippy didn't want it and had a tantrum. Just to see if he was throwing a tantrum for another reason I offered the bottle. If he refused then I would know it was something else, but nope he downed the bottle.  So... not sure what to do. He still needs the oz's. should I try a different sippy?
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Offline Lolly

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2013, 20:35:14 pm »
What time did you offer the sippy - was it the after breakfast milk or the afternoon milk? If you are still giving the morning and bedtime milk in a bottle that's plenty of oz so it doesn't matter if he doesn't have milk between those 2 bottles. Every time you give him a bottle after he throws a tantrum you are reinforcing that that behaviour will get him a bottle so he will keep doing it.

I would stick to a bottle after his breakfast (what happens if you give the milk on wake up at 6 and then breakfast later?) and bedtime and it's cups of milk or no milk in between however much he protests - offer a cup of milk and some thing to eat, if he is truly hungry or thirsty he will choose one or both if there is no other option.

Laura


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2013, 20:59:11 pm »
Every time you give him a bottle after he throws a tantrum you are reinforcing that that behaviour will get him a bottle so he will keep doing it.

I understand this part, it is the only time I've done it I was merely trying to figure out if he was throwing the tantrum due to the sippy cup or if it was something else. It was a conscientious choice. That way I would know going forward to push through with the sippy and that that's what the tantrum was about.

I offered the sippy after lunch about an hour after. He does not get dairy etc from any other source and he is 10% for weight so it is important he get more than normal Oz's. He can't go from 24oz every day to only 14-16oz overnight. I'm ok dropping that "bottle" all together once he gets the milk trial and we find out if he can handle full dairy or not.

In the AM if I offer milk first he wont eat breakfast. he eats 7-8oz in the AM bottle so i"m not worried about that bottle. I'm going to try a softer straw as he seems to get the hiccups from this sippy when he drinks formula out of it.
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Offline Lolly

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2013, 21:24:50 pm »
He can't go from 24oz every day to only 14-16oz overnight. I'm ok dropping that "bottle" all together once he gets the milk trial and we find out if he can handle full dairy or not. 

He can though - 24 oz of dairy a day is more than he needs. The AAP gives a guideline of 16oz of milk (or dairy to get that amount) which is about 800mg of calcium. Too much milk is as bad as too little. If you do the milk challenge soon and he still can't have milk, what will you do about that bottle then?

Giving him more milk isn't definitly going to put weight on him anyway, my DS is below the 9th centile and gets plenty of dairy from milk, cheese yoghurts etc but he still doesn't gain weight from that either! If your DS isn't full from milk you stand a better chance of getting him to eat a variety of higher calorie foods which is what he needs now he is a toddler, milk needs to be a drink  not a food source.

I still think you just need to not offer a bottle after his morning bottle and give the sippy/ straw cup of nothing. If you keep offering without any fuss from you but no alternative he will take it if he wants it.

Laura


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2013, 21:38:42 pm »
I'm not going to offer the second bottle That's why I'm offering the sippy cup.  I'm going by the GI specialist my son has been seeing for 11 months.
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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2013, 22:16:00 pm »
Hey just jumping in with my thoughts.

I have to agree with Laura about not needing that third milk now (whether bottle or sippy or open cup or whatever).  Different countries give slightly different guides on the amount of milk/dairy needed from 1 year old.  In the UK this amount is 300ml, or 10oz, or half a pint to ensure they get enough calcium.  There are also calcium rich foods which are not dairy which I would look into IF your LO wasn't taking enough milk but honestly 24oz per day is huge.  Here's the BW FAQ which gives a guidance of 12 - 20 oz further showing that there are differences in the guidance across the world etc, but all in agreement that 24 oz is not needed.
Milk intake - what you can expect between 6 months to 12months +

With 8oz in the morning and 6-8oz at BT (total 14 - 16oz) he would still be getting ample.

Rather than trying to switch him from the bottle to a sippy/straw for that afternoon milk I would offer a bottle of water.  There are two different 'aspects' here, one being drinking too much milk which will effect his solids intake and from 1yo solids need to be the primary food source, the range of vitamins available in a varied diet isn't available in milk.  The other 'aspect' is dropping the physical aspect of using a bottle, this is a different thing altogether.  I think the two are being confused slightly by you focusing to switch the milk to a straw cup.  WRT dropping the physical aspect of drinking from a bottle I would put that to one side right now and focus on a varied and balanced diet, hence my view of there being no harm in offering a bottle of water.  I'm not good with screaming babies and will always choose the gentler gradual wean option which is why I would likely let him have a suck but not the milk iyswim.  Me, I'd save his lunch and re-offer with the bottle of water (obviously you can't save a used plate for an hour but I assume you offer in small portions and can keep some fresh to one side for later).

One thing occurs to me, many LOs (mine included) don't like to eat too close to waking up.  I noticed mine has had phases but on the whole he needs time to work up an appetite whilst awake, not just based on length of time since last meal.  So he may not be hungry for lunch if it is too close to nap WU and then be eager for food/milk 45 min or an hour later.

And, for what it's worth, my boy was on the 9th centile until he was 2yo when he reached the 25th (which is just the next line up on our chart), he ate my kitchen bare and never budged of that centile.  There is nothing wrong or unhealthy about being on a smaller centile, all those weights and heights are normal.  We dropped to 2 bottles well under 1yo and at 12months dropped the BT bottle then a month later dropped the morning bottle. I had no concern at all about ditching the bottles and milk intake dropping to a couple of cups per day after he reached 1yo.

Long and short is he is your boy and you need to do what you think is best.
Perhaps you need to clarify your purpose for the thread is it to increase solids intake and a varied diet or is it just the tantrum you don't like when he is given a sippy of milk instead of a bottle?


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2013, 22:45:07 pm »
Perhaps you need to clarify your purpose for the thread is it to increase solids intake and a varied diet or is it just the tantrum you don't like when he is given a sippy of milk instead of a bottle?

It's actually that he throws a hissy because he wants his bottle/formula. The first day he had no problem taking it form a sippy but the last two days he's decided not to take it.

I totally understand what you are saying re. oz's needed. My lo is slightly different as after doing a 2 week food log the GI specialist figured he's not getting enough calories via solids so to keep his formula up a little. He dropped from 25% to 5% and has since stopped gaining weight all together. I have no issue with him being on the smaller side at all. I kind of like him long and lean. :) He's got strong legs we call him our little plow boy. :) Anyway, so... that is why I'm a bit hesitant to lower his oz. He's not drinking 24oz sorry if I mispoke. He drinks around 18-20oz a day.

I would love some ideas of food I can give him that will help with his calcium etc. :) I can offer those to keep him busy when he starts clamoring for that bottle.

I'm hesitant to offer water in a bottle because I'm also trying to drop that bottle all together. I feel if I offer water he's just going to keep clamoring for it as it's not the formula he wants it's the bottle. I don't know if that makes sense? He takes water in a sippy cup so that's not an issue.  If the milk trial goes well we'll drop the morning bottle next and put it in a sippy cup. I guess that's what I"m trying to do. Use this 2nd bottle of the day to get him used to taking formula/milk from a sippy so that we can start dropping the bottles. BT will be the last to go as he really really likes it and I'm not in a rush to drop it right now.

One thing occurs to me, many LOs (mine included) don't like to eat too close to waking up.
Yes Liam is like that. I usually wait about 30min after wake up for him to eat. :)
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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2013, 07:04:59 am »
Obviously you need to follow what you think is right based on the information available and advise from your ped.  I will say though that when my LO was taking very little milk in bottles (he always took half the guidance amount) the advise I was given (health visitors, GP, BWers, books, internet etc etc) was ALL to increase the dairy solids he was offered.  Well I tried that and the more dairy solids he ate the less milk he took. Being under 6 months old I knew milk was still his main source of food so in a radical experiment I cut out all dairy solids and guess what, his milk increased (and I was happy with that as the formula was vit fortified where as the cheese and other dairy foods were not).  I'm just saying sometimes the advise can guide us the wrong way. I'd say if your LO isn't taking enough solids you need to cut back on milk, not keep it going with it and driving yourself crazy trying to transition milk to a sippy.

I honestly think you are confusing the issue with having two different and (almost) opposing goals that you are tackling at once. If you want him to keep the milk intake up keep the bottle, just keep it, the physical action of drinking from a bottle is not harming him in the immediate future (on it all day or for ever yes, will damage his teeth but that's not the case here, it's a quick bottle, if anything the BT bottle posses more 'threat' to teeth if they are not being brushed before sleep and this is a real problem that I would certainly tackle if you haven't already).  Switching a bottle to a cup for milk mid day is not at all the same as switching or dropping morning or BT milk.  That's not how others drop bottles because LO WILL throw a fit if they want the milk or want the bottle.  People drop that mid day bottle by offering a snack and sippy (of water or milk) at that time with the acceptance that milk intake WILL drop (because LOs don't want milk in a cup and because it's fine for milk intake to drop at a suitable age, usually before 12 months).
In all honesty I think you've given yourself a bit of a pointless goal in trying to switch that bottle, even successfully getting him to drink a full amount of milk from a cup at that time of day will have no effect whatsoever on his dropping the morning or BT bottle.  Every bottle is dropped separately and will have it's own weaning process to go through.  Mid afternoon bottle switching to a cup is not a 'practice run' for dropping the morning bottle. Hope that makes sense.
(as an aside I'd drop the afternoon bottle and then the BT bottle and keep the morning bottle. Very many people keep the BT bottle so that sleep is not disturbed by a routine change but there are benefits to dropping that one earlier and maintaining the big milk drink (bottle or cup) in the morning. Bt bottle can be weaned in 2 weeks or less with no crying and no sleep loss)

I'm hesitant to offer water in a bottle because I'm also trying to drop that bottle all together
Well, it's part of a process. If you need the milk to stay up then just give the bottle and there are no tantrum issues. When he's had his dairy trial or at whatever point you are ready for the formula intake to drop you can attend to the habit.  If my LO really NEEDED that amount of milk I wouldn't be trying to switch the bottle, my primary goal would be to offer him the food he was desperate for in whatever form he would accept.  The point Laura and I have been making is that we don't think he needs it, but if he does, really does, for his health then why would you risk it reducing?
My suggestion of offering water is one step in a weaning process.  Once he worked out he could get the pleasure of sucking but only water he will increase his solids intake which is what you said in your original post was an issue (holding out for the bottle, not eating lunch).  The bottle of water would satisfy his need to suck but not give him the calories, so he would be hungry for solids.  And a short while later he wouldn't bother with the bottle because he wouldn't be hungry for the milk, wouldn't be getting the milk and would switch easily to a sippy of water - also because he already happily takes from a sippy and because he would be full from solids.
It's about going one step at a time - you can go even slower on a bottle wean to totally avoid any crying or tantrum...if that's what you want.  But not if his milk intake needs to stay so high.

At the risk of being repetitive, too high a milk intake can lead to an underweight child, they are too full on milk to take in enough solids, and the milk doesn't offer the same level of nutrition as they need (certainly iron deficiency as Laura mentioned already).


Offline Skadiver13

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2013, 11:34:24 am »
f anything the BT bottle posses more 'threat' to teeth if they are not being brushed before sleep and this is a real problem that I would certainly tackle if you haven't already).

Of course we are brushing his teeth. He rather enjoys it and we make it fun. The BT bottle doesn't, nor do we use it to put him to sleep it's just part of the wind down, comes after bath but before teeth brushing and book reading.

Thanks for your thoughts will take it all under advisement.
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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2013, 04:25:40 am »
Hi Siobhan - I can give you info on what we did... DD wasn't MSPI like Liam, but she couldn't drink cow's milk so I shared your concerns about the vitamins etc that are in formula. 

My kid is one that NEVER took any form of milk from a sippy.  As far as she knew, milk was from a bottle and water from a sippy.  Mixing the two up would cause serious meltdowns.  I also never gave her water in a bottle as I was trying to get rid of them too...

At 13 months, I dropped her to just two bottles a day.  We dropped her wakeup bottle and kept a 6oz bottle before her nap around noon and then an 8 oz bottle at bedtime.  She had no cow's milk at all, just water at all other times. 

At 18 months, we dropped to just the bedtime bottle and I reduced it to 7 ozs.

At 2 yrs of age, I introduced a toddler multivitamin (Good old Flintstones!) and at 25 months, I dropped her bedtime bottle cold turkey as I knew it wasn't anything but habit at that point.  She was upset for a few nights, but did just fine :)

I wouldn't rush to drop the bottle...



Offline Emami

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2013, 14:27:10 pm »
Just wanted to agree with Kara!  If your issue is that your lo still wants bottles and you don't want to deal with a midday tantrum from trying a sippy cup, just keep the bottles!  I started getting stressed around 18 months that dd shouldn't be having bottles any more (she still had one first thing and one at BT), because that's what everyone tells you!  She was one of those who was very clear that water should be in a cup and milk in a bottle!  I gave her milk in a sippy every morning for about a week and just got fed up with every morning starting with a battle.  It didn't start the day out in a good way, and I figured the only reason I wanted to get rid of the bottle was because I felt like I should.  I personally couldn't care less that she still wanted them - it was only twice a day and she never slept with them.  So I kept them.  One day around 2 months ago I decided to try a sippy again and she took it, chugged it and was fine with it, so no more bottles!  But I don't think the extra months did anyone any harm.
Emma






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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2013, 17:08:58 pm »
Thanks Kara and Emma. I honestly am not sure what I want if that makes sense. The past 2 days he's done very well with out the afternoon bottle as I've kept him pretty entertained with other things. He did get fussy but he's not a tantrum thrower and he's easily distracted if we go outside. Today it's a high of 90 degrees so I'm not sure outside is an option so we'll see how it goes. I do feel as if he doesn't eat enough solids and I thought by dropping the afternoon bottle that might help if he was not eating lunch to hold out for his bottle. It doesn't seemed to have made much of a difference in his appetite. But now that we are down to 2 bottles I'll just leave it that way. :)

I'm not worried about the BT bottle he enjoys it, and so do I. We brush his teeth afterwards and so I'm ok with that.

Kara what was your reason for dropping the AM bottle instead of the afternoon? I wonder since I don't give him the bottle first thing if I should just move it closer to his nap so it's more spaced out?

My major issue is we can't afford the formula anymore. Insurance stopped paying for it and it's 350.00 for 6 cans. So I really do need to get him off formula if we can and on to cows milk or pedisure if possible. We are hoping to do the milk trial starting tomorrow with greek yogurt so we'll see how it goes.
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



**Siobhan**

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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2013, 20:43:46 pm »
It doesn't seemed to have made much of a difference in his appetite.
Whenever I dropped a bottle with DS the increase in appetite at another time of day wasn't evident immediately.  For example dropping the dream feed didn't immediately increase the morning milk bottle to make up for what he had missed, but over time it did go up.

vibes for a good milk trial.


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Re: Dropping the 3rd bottle
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2013, 16:06:10 pm »
Thanks.. I've decide to do baked milk instead so I'm going to make some blueberry pancakes for breakfast. I don't have whole milk so skim will have to do just for today. We'll see how it goes. Fingers crossed. He was hungry for breakfast this morning and then 1.5hr later downed 8oz of formula. He did have a better night 6pm-5:30am so I think he was in a much better mood this morning.
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



**Siobhan**