Looong NW 11 months

[llawrence83]

DD has never slept through the night for long periods of time and periodically has NW of 2-3 hours at a time.  We've had 2 3hr ones this week and we're exhausted!

5:30-6:30 gets up
Breakfast: Porridge 7oz formula
8:30-9 goes for nap
10-10:30 wakes up
lunch @ 12
Nap @ 1:30
Snack @ 3
Dinner @ 5
Bath/bottle 8oz @ 6
Bed by 7 - usually asleep by 7:30

Any suggestions?!

[katie80]

Hi and welcome to BW!

First things first... is she an independent sleeper?  Are you able to put her down for naps and BT awake, not drowsy/sleeping?  I notice she only has two bottles a day, is that correct?  I think she's still pretty young to only have that much milk in a day, do you offer some with lunch either in a sippy or bottle?

Routine-wise, it looks to me like she's getting a bit too much day time sleep and not enough A time throughout the day to have a solid, full night.  Have a read through this link and let me know your thoughts... From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[llawrence83]

Hi 

Yes she is an independent sleeper, she has a dummy and ted and is always put down awake.  She self settles (mainly because as a tiny baby no amount of rocking would get her to sleep so we used the BW book!)

She has always fought milk, it used to take forever to get her to drink any amount.  She has loads of water in the day, at most she would have another few oz of milk but pushes it away, even if I offered it instead of water.  She is getting over a sickness bug and refused milk all together but we have managed to get her back to the two bottles.

I read the article yesterday and definitely think its worth starting to reduce the morning sleep.  I did that today and she had 45 mins morning and 2 hours after lunch.  She has gone to bed not OT.  My only reservation with that previously is there has been no pattern, some days she'll sleep less in the day and not sleep through the night, or vice versa.  Also because he wake up time is so varied sometimes shes been up from 5 and falling asleep again by 8am.

I have to say I love the BW book, it really helped us when she was tiny as she hardly ever slept!  She has really suffered with teething and is always spot on affected by developmental leaps.

[llawrence83]

Update:

Today
woke up 6:30
breakfast 7:15
nap 9-9:45
lunch 12
nap 12:45-2:15
dinner 5
BT:6:45 - still awake now 8:20

[katie80]

Hmm... EASY-wise, I'm not sure there's a reason for that long time to go to sleep at BT.  You mentioned in your first post that she napped 2hr after lunch, but in the EAS have only 1.5hr.  If it was only 1.5hr, I wonder if it was just a bit too much of a cut in day time sleep for one day. . The other thing you could to is to push the morning nap out to 3hr A, so 9:30-10:15 and then do afternoon from 1:15-3, with BT at 7pm.  I'd give it a few more days, to see if it evens out.  Are there other things going on to keep her awake at BT... teething, developmental stuff, temp in room?

I'm also wondering if she has any tummy issues and that could be a contributor to the NWs.  A few things you've mentioned (having a hard time getting her to sleep as an infant, her fighting of milk, no correlation of day time sleep and NWs) make me think there could be something else at play.  Has she ever suffered from reflux symptoms?  Could she have some food intolerances (most commonly milk/soy)? What does her doctor think about refusing milk?  Has she maintained decent weight gain, etc?

What happens at the NWs?  Does she wake and fuss/moan or cry out immediately or is she just awake and chatting/playing?  Do you go to her right away?  How do you help her settle?

[llawrence83]

Hi

Sorry I meant she woke at 3:15 so she had 2.5 hours.  She eventually fell asleep at 9 last night, but slept until 6 this morning

We are struggling to keep her awake for more than 3 hours in the afternoon

Today was

awake @ 6 (tried to let her go back to sleep, no luck)
breakfast @ 7.30
nap at 8.45 (she was already making tired cues)
woke her up at 9.30
snack 10
lunch 12
sleep 12.45 - 2.30 (wouldnt sleep any longer, have thought about making this earlier but think she'd be ready for bed at 5?!!)
snack
dinner 5 (already getting really tired)
milk and in bed for 18.20 (was extremely tired and have left to self soothe)

NW tend to be crying first, so I go in if its persistent, make sure she has a dummy, leave her to self settle.  Sometimes we have talking, shouting, sometimes crying.  Have tried PUPD and she stops crying the second I pick her up,but wont be put down.  When she wakes fully, there is no getting her back to sleep, you just have to ride it out until she has exhausted herself again. If its just stirring a quick shh pat will get her back, anything more and we've lost!

In terms of milk, I'm not sure she's intolerant.  She was always a 'snacker'.  When BF she would want to feed every half a hour, when we switched to formula she would want 2oz every hour.  We had to persevere to get her to feed right from birth.  No sickness or bad nappies, no reflex, some colic/wind as a baby, but never fought lying down, arching back etc. We did find that when we weaned to puree she woke a lot more, so switched to BLW and she seemed more settled.  We could investigate it further, I'm actually actively avoiding cows milk when she turns one.

Also she has fairly consistently been teething since 5 months (although didnt sleep through before then either) she now has 7 teeth.  We sometimes have 2-3 days of full sleep, then back to normal waking for short or long periods.

Does that make sense!!?

[llawrence83]

dirty nappy at 6.45, finally asleep at 7.30...better than 9!

[katie80]

Sorry I meant she woke at 3:15 so she had 2.5 hours.

Ah, ok that makes sense.  That was a bit too much for the afternoon, and she was UT at BT... that's why she couldn't get to sleep and rolled around in there til 9.  I would not let her sleep more than 2hr in the afternoon.  I'm sure she was really tired this morning and throughout the day, because of the short (9hr) night.  I think you'll have to let the new routine settle in for a bit before we can see if it makes a difference.

I'd try for something like this...
Wake 6:30am
Nap 1 9:30-10:15am (try not to let her go down before 3hr)
Nap 2 1:15-3:15pm
BT 7/7:15pm

Have tried PUPD and she stops crying the second I pick her up,but wont be put down.

Yes, at this age there is no pick up, only put down.  Picking up tends to cause more issues. 

When she wakes fully, there is no getting her back to sleep, you just have to ride it out until she has exhausted herself again. If its just stirring a quick shh pat will get her back, anything more and we've lost!

Do you think you have any prop issues in the MOTN with going to her too quickly or giving her the dummy?  Can she find a dummy on her own?  I'm just wondering as if she's just stirring, she should be left to get herself back to sleep. 

We could investigate it further, I'm actually actively avoiding cows milk when she turns one.

It may be something to keep in mind.  From what you've said, most things are likely ruled out (i.e. no bad nappies, spitting up, etc), but the frequent feeding, puree issues, and consistent NWs could still be indicators of some digestive discomfort.  Let's give an age-appropriate routine a good try for a couple weeks, and if there's still no change, you may want to delve further into this.

Also she has fairly consistently been teething since 5 months (although didnt sleep through before then either) she now has 7 teeth.  We sometimes have 2-3 days of full sleep, then back to normal waking for short or long periods.

Is she teething now?  Do pain meds seem to help at all?

dirty nappy at 6.45, finally asleep at 7.30...better than 9!

Oh, posting as you did... bummer!  Hope the night is better.

[llawrence83]

We slept through tip 4.45 *yawn* which is much better but very early!

Again a 9 hour night, how funny!

In the night its a bit of a catch 22, I've heard her do some cries over the last two nights but have left her.  There are the *moaning in my sleep/resettling cries* which I ignore and let her self soothe, or the *you better get in here now cries* which I tend to go in to.  She can definitely find the dummy, that and the teddy get thrown out of the cot when shes bored and awake for a long time!

Shes been having meds for teeth

Have managed to keep her awake for a bit longer today, she was yawning lots mid morning but tried to keep her going, dont want to get her over tired in the process so guess it needs to be gradual.

[llawrence83]

Update:

Today

wake @ 4.45
breakfast at 6.30 (+7oz milk)
nap 8.00-9.00
lunch @ 11.45
nap 1-3
5oz milk
dinner 4.45
bed @ 6.30 (7oz milk) (couldnt keep her awake ay longer!)

we also gave her the extra 5oz of milk today after her nap

hoping we get more than 9 hours as that takes us to 3.30! *yawn*

[katie80]

We slept through tip 4.45 *yawn* which is much better but very early!

Oh no! Is there nothing you can do at that hr to get her back to sleep?  Feeding, rocking, anything?  That's a terrible time to wake up for the day.  Looks like the day went as well as it could though and yay for the extra milk.  Hope last night was more than 9hr!

[llawrence83]

Up from 5.30 which is a little bit better! So a good 11 hour sleep, only one incident of coughing which stirred her but she slept straight away again

We tried feeding and rocking but no luck, will keep persevering, usually its a case of when she awake, shes awake!!

The day went really well.  Today she was at nursery, only goes once a week, she had a much better sleep than normal while she was there, but came home super tired.  I think she'll be asleep around 6.45.

[katie80]

That's improvement!  Keep working on it and you'll get there. Let me know how it goes.

[llawrence83]

So here's a bit of any update.  We've had much better sleep, generally through the night to 6ish the next morning.  We've had a few incidents of waking, but she has settled herself back down.  She still has a bit of a cough and this has woken her a few times, usually around 10, most of the time she has gone back to sleep, the longest it took was an hour, but shes gone off by herself.

Last night however, up for 4 hours!! *yawn*

I dont feel like we are getting the day naps right to make it stick.  Its fine if she's up early, nap time at 9 works.  What do we do if she wakes at 7? 10 seems too late for a nap, but she's really struggling to make it to lunchtime.  She's also still finding it hard to get from 3-7 and getting really tired before bed so refusing her milk.

[katie80]

Oh my goodness, that's an awful NW! (((Hugs)))! Is she cutting teeth or ill?

What is your routine looking like the last few days? A nap at 10 is not too late if you are capping it. Ideally, you want her wake up to be within a 30-60min range, so there's some consistency to her days.

If she wakes at 7, you could do something like this...

Wake 7am
Nap 1 10-10:45am
Nap 2 1:45-3:15pm
BT 7/7:30pm