8mo waking a lot at beginning of night then sleeping in....am I creating this?

[Natbug22]

My dd has always kept me guess her correct A time but lately I thought I had things figured out.  Then she started teething...then SA sets in...which has caused more nw.  We have family over now and then (overnight) and since I don't want to wake the other lo's, I have ended up just feeding her and she falls asleep (usually) no problem.  I feel like when all this started I was feeding her and it was no harm done but now I'm not sure if I'm creating a habit or what!!  When the nw started she would wake randomly, I'd feed and she's off to sleepytown.  NOW, she wakes up every hour or two after bt and won't start sleeping well till 1-2am in which case she sleeps till 8 or so now (used to wake at 7ish).  So I'm all sorts of confused and hoping someone can take a look at our routine, well what it has become, and advice any possible advice/tweaks I can make.  I have thought ut at bt/ot at bt/too much day sleep/not enough day sleep...if this is just teeth and SA then I guess I have no choice but to deal but if I'm missing something then I'd like to get back on track.  She's been on/off teething for months and escalated 3/4 weeks ago but has calmed during the day now but her gums are a bit swollen still and NO teeth yet.  I feel like maybe I'm getting her used to having my breast to get back to sleep now.  She eats for 5 minutes at a time during the day but when I try and take her off at say 12 minutes during the night, she freaks.  When 1-2am comes around, she's fed and sleeps till 7-8am without a peep so I know she's capable of sleeping through...is my A off?  I felt like maybe she was OT last week d/t the early nw but maybe she's UT?  I don't know anymore...... Here's our easy for the last 2 days


8  wu/bf
9  breakfast, usually fruit or avocado
11 ish  bf
12-1:40  nap
2  lunch, fruit/veg
3 ish  bf
4:50-5:40  nap (is she sleeping too late here?)
sometimes she just chews on hard vegetables instead of ingesting food when she sleep this late.  I still want my milk to be #1 for her and don't really want to go 3 meals so soon.  We blw so she gets enough food for now I think.
activity is pretty chill for hour or less till bt
6:30-7  bf
bath, book, lights out and I lay her in her crib and she falls asleep in 5 minutes. 
Asleep at 8:20.....wu 9:05 screaming, I give her teething tablets, feed and she falls asleep......10:50 wu (this was around our usual df time but she been waking before it for some time now, I feed her and she falls asleep...2am wu, I feed her because I'm so tired and she sleeps till 8am.

8:10  wu/bf
9ish breakfast
11ish  bf
12:10-1:35  nap
2ish  lunch
3ish bf
4:25-5:10  nap
7 bf, bath, book, lights out, asleep in 5 minutes.....
sleep at 8....9:45 wu, she ss.....10:45 wu, I feed her, teething tabs....11:40 wu, I feed bc she won't settle...2am feed (I'm so exhausted)....

8:20/8:40  wu/bf
10  breakfast
11  bf
11:25  fell asleep in the car and stayed asleep in carrier even when we got home till 12:25
2  bf
2:50-4  nap  (another 15 in stroller during walk shortly after wu
bf @ 5 & 7, then bath, book, lights out, she's asleep in 5 minutes......it's been 45 minutes and she's on/off crying out now.....what is this?!?!

Night terrors, teeth, ut/ot, hunger???....please help me, or just tell me it's fine and it'll pass...I don't know what to do anymore.

She's pulling herself up on things a lot and almost has her crawling perfected if that means anything.... I think she's in a dark area on wonder weeks too so maybe this is just a REALLY bad time and add teeth to it and this is what you get.  .... gotta go, crying baby
8:10   wu/bf
9:30   breakfast (fruit, maybe oatmeal sometimes too)
12:10-1:35  nap
2    lunch (fruit/veg)
 

[PaulsMom]

Hug for the nw's.  it's hard when there is so much going on. 

A couple of things I've noticed with your routine is that the first A is quite long.  I'm wondering if she should nap 3.5 hrs after wu.  This will bring the second nap forward.  Her second nap is shorter and I'm wondering if she needs a more restorative nap in the afternoon so that the first half of her night is more settled.  Only problem is, you don't want her to have too long of nap that gets her up at dinner time.  Hence I'm thinking her second nap needs to be earlier. 

When she wakes, is she standing, sitting or still lying down?  Developmental milestones and ww's will affect sleep and unfortunately you do have to ride these out.  Give her lots of practice time during the day. 

When she is crying, is it a full out cry or a mantra cry?  If its just a mantra cry, let her try to settle herself. 

My theory with hunger and night feeds for babies this age is they may feel hunger but they may not need the calories IF  they are eating well during the day.  That being said, sometimes feeding is the fastest way back to sleep  .  At this age, you can choose which nw you will feed at and which ones you will re settle.

Wrt teething, I agree with you that teething is playing a part in these nw's.  I'd try to relieve the pain as best you can.  Some moms will medicate with tylenol or ibuprofen.  you can talk to your dr about using pain meds at bt.  Note that some babies, bf will help them with the pain whereas for others, the sucking will cause them more pain.

[Natbug22]

Thanks for getting back so quick. Last night she was up a lot again....8:15...9:30...10:30...2..4.....up for the day at 9am which is way late to me. Should I get her up sooner to keep routine on track or no? When she wakes she's screaming and sometimes she's on all fours but not standing. I started getting shorter naps with 3.5 a time do I upped it but with her waking up late lately her days have been so off! I can definitely try getting her down earlier so that her 2nd nap isn't so late.  How much sleep should she get during the day at this age? How long should her day be? I feel like nursing helps but I'd definitely like to Curr down these night feeds. Is it right to try and cut feeds when she's teething? Thanks again for your advice.

[PaulsMom]

wow, that's a rough night.  I would go with my gut feel as to whether or not to wake her earlier.  After a rough night, she needs the sleep but it's pushing her day out a lot.  You might want to bite the bullet and wake her at 7:30 and then try to get some good naps in and bring her back on track.

With a 3.5 A, how short were her naps?

Here's the link to the typical amounts of day and night time sleep.
Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep
So, roughly 2-4 hrs of DT sleep and 10-12 hrs of nt sleep.  Do you think she has low sleep needs?  Usually bubs this age are up around 13 hrs on average.

Ok, so when she wakes it looks like we have some developmental stuff going on.  I would PD and try to re-settle if she's up on all fours.  then during the day, practice, practice, practice!

If it were me, I would try to get her down to 2 night feeds now (ie. the ones that wake you up).  Given all that's going on, you both need your sleep!  I'd wait until the WW is over and then try to drop another feed (if she doesn't do this on her own).  Otherwise it looks like there are so many variables in play that it may be very challenging to try to do this right now.  Do you think that sounds alright?

[Natbug22]

She would sleep for 1.10-1.30 min on 3.5 a time, which I guess is ok, right? She's always been high a low sleep needs but things are not normal lately so I knew I had to change something. I'll try lowering the a time...she never gives me a long pm nap. She was taking a long 2-2.5hr am nap and shorter pm nap but that all changed a few weeks ago. So you think I should set times to feed her at night (2 feeds) and re-settle the rest? I think I will wake get in the am at our normal start time so we can get back on track for the rest of the day. My gut has been telling me to so I'mglad to do it...anything to get some kind of routine back in place. I know there is a lot going on and I will focus on dropping another feed after ww for sure..I've just been making excuses lately bc its just so easy to feed her and get back to bed but now I'm dealing with the repercussions. Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a few days and report back.  :-)

Thank you babywhisperer.com....thank you paulsmom.

[PaulsMom]

She would sleep for 1.10-1.30 min on 3.5 a time, which I guess is ok, right?

this isn't bad.  It is great if they sleep for a really long time but if she had two naps of this duration, I think she may be less OT at bt which hopefully will reduce the nw's in the first half of the night. 

So you think I should set times to feed her at night (2 feeds) and re-settle the rest?

  At this age, some babies are waking twice to eat so I think it's reasonable.  I would settle the early nw's. Once it's in the MOTN, then I'll leave it up to you since you need your sleep also! 

Let me know how things go.  FX for fewer nws!

[Natbug22]

Update:  I have re-settled the early nw and I am still doing a feed around 10-11. She usually wakes before still but I feed her anyway, is that ok? She has mastered the art of crawling now so I know that was a culprit. After her feed around 10ish she'll go to sleep no problem but around midnight, for the last 3 nights, she's up for a while screaming!! Usually for 1-2hrs!! We give her meds for teeth and she still will scream. Once she goes to sleep after that, she's up an hour later, I feed, she falls asleep til morning. If she happens to wake during that time she'll resettle herself. So...less early nw but now a long midnight wake. What is that?! Should I be resettling the df now? How will I know its time to wean it? Heres yesterdays easy..

8:10  wu bf
9:30  breakfast
11:45-1  nap  (usually bf 30min before nap)
1:30 lunch
3/3:30  bf
3:55-5:10  nap
7 bf , bath, book, lights out, she's asleep at  8:30 (usually earlier but she woke a bit late for the day)....wu @10:20, I feed her and she's back asleep. Wu 12:45 screaming and wad up for 1 1/2hrs! She woke up at 2:45, I feed her and she's asleep till 7:40.

Today
7:40  wu bf
8:45 breakfast
Tu before nap
11:05-12:35  nap
1  lunch
3  bf
3:35-4:45  nap
7 bf, bath, book, lights out, asleep by 8:05.......

She's had good naps last 2 days but that midnight wu is horrible. I feel terrible when I can't console her, she just wails and is not settled for such a long time. What could that mean?

[PaulsMom]

Hugs.  That is rough and hard on both of you!  Screaming for hours makes me think that she's in pain.  Not teeth but perhaps something else?  Could she have a sore tummy?  Is she constipated at all (or the opposite)?  Have you introduced any new foods to her that may be causing problems? 

If she's unwell or is in some kind of pain/discomfort, I wouldn't wean the df until she's better.  Is she getting dinner?  If yes, then I'd start to gradually wean the df.  If not, I'd introduce dinner first and then gradually wean the df.  The milk consumed during the df would need to be given at other times during the day otherwise shes losing out on calories (yes, hard to do when you are bf).  But you can add milk to solids (eg. In cereals, anything that is mashed or into sauces, etc).

[Natbug22]

She will eat dinner sometimes.  If so, it's not much.  I thought she was constipated a bit but she is still passing a bm it's just more firm.  They've been more frequent and more firm lately, could she still be constipated then?  She doesn't seem in pain when she is passing them, only at this midnight hour. ...  Hmmm, last night she wasn't interested in eating so I just gave her stuff to chew on while I ate and she woke at 9:40 which was an hour and a half after bt.  I helped her settle and she slept til 11:10, I fed her and she went to sleep.  Woke again at 1:40 for 50 minutes (no feed, I helped settle) and back to sleep til 8 this morning.  During the 9:40 and 1:40 wakings I gave her stuff for teeth pain but she slept better after the 1:40 application.  I think you are right that it is something else other then teeth.  And she wouldn't be screaming like this if it was just developmental.  Sometimes I feel like she needs more solids and other times I think she needs a break from them.  I just can't get it right!  it's just weird to me that she can sleep so great after 12-1am but not before then.  If she is constipated then wouldn't she be bothered all night not just early on?  i'll just keep an eye on it for a few more days and see what happens.  If I'm still getting these long waking then I'll reconsider her feeding schedule.  On the positive side, yesterday her naps were 1.30hr and 1.10hr which have been very few and far between lately.  Maybe things are starting to get better.  She has been more clingy to me today but not last two days so I think we're dealing with this ww still, some SA, possibly gas/constipation, and teething....poor girl.  If I'm missing something please share.  Regarding the df though, I will still keep it I think until we can figure things out.  I just didn't want to continue it if it could be the very thing disrupting her sleep, yk?  Whenever I re-settle when she wakes before it, she ends up waking like an hour later anyway, hungry?...probably.  I'll get some gripe water today, that seems to help her in the past.  If she sleeps better with that tonight then I'm sure she has tummy troubles.  Thanks for your help and I will still keep you posted.  Sometimes you just need another set of eyes, yk?

[PaulsMom]

They've been more frequent and more firm lately, could she still be constipated then?

  I think she could be a bit constipated.  I suppose that depending on what food it is, it may only cause a few hrs discomfort (e.g. meat may sit heavy in her stomach where as apple sauce may just slow everything down, yk?).  Do you keep a log of what she ate? you might start to see a pattern.

WRT weaning the DF, yes, I know what you mean.  this feed could be disrupting her sleep... I suppose if she's had a good day, nap wise and is doing well overall (ate well during the day, less clingy, etc) then may be drop the feed if she doesn't wake around 11 pm and see how she does. 

Whenever I re-settle when she wakes before it, she ends up waking like an hour later anyway, hungry?...probably

  Waking every hr to me is some type of discomfort.  Hunger is a possibility but then so are teeth.  I have to admit, that I usually feed my DD and find that she takes a good feed and then just goes back to sleep... But if she's up again, then I know it's something else... likely teeth.

Let me know how things go!