9mo: several night waking + early waking

[jade85]

For a good few mths, my 9mo boy wakes up between 145-230am every nit, I give a full feed 180ml, he finished all n went back to slp. But an hour later, he wakes up crying or whimpering again. I ignore and usually he can go back to slp. but 430 or 5am he wakes crying again n unable to go back slp. I feed, give water, cuddle, pat do what I always do but he just can't go back slp but I know he's tired cos he wake crying ! I struggled with him in the room till almost 6am then i greet him with a chirpy gd morning n on the lights. I need help to resolve his nw n ew! His typical day
E milk 180ml 7am
E morning snacks like fruits 8am
S 9am (30-45min nap) wakes crying I wanted to extend his nap but when he sees me he got all excited !
E solid (breakfast) 10am
E milk 180ml 1pm
S 130pm (30-1hr) again wakes crying like morning nap
E milk 180ml 3pm
E solid (dinner) 5pm
S ( bedtime ritual) bath, pj 630 follow by milk 180ml. He slp ard 7pm or 630 if he wakes earlier or cranky I push bt earlier to catch up with loss slp.
E (df) 180ml

Is he eating enough? He's very active weighing at 9.5kg for 9mo. If he had enough in the day, he shouldnt need a night feed ? What's wrong with my routine? What I need to do to improve his nw and ew? He only has 2 lower teeth. No further teeth coming out, so I rule out teething. Plus this has been ongoing for more than 3 mths! He is well, no stuffy, blocked runny nose. Slp in darkroom, with white noise, not too warm not too cold room temp maintain at 26degree. I just don't know what's wrong ! pls help!

[PaulsMom]

Hi there,

Hugs for the nw and ew.  A couple of questions - is he lying down and crying when he wakes or is he standing or sitting up in his crib? 

In general I think that he's probably OT.  A 4 hr A time is on the longer side for babies this age and 3.5 hrs might be more appropriate. So I'm wondering if you can put him down sooner for naps and he might sleep longer. Keep in mind he may be OT so it may take a few days of this before he starts to sleep longer.

Also, is he waking for the DF?  If not, it may be time to drop the DF.  You can either drop the DF gradually by adding an additional oz to the day time bottles and then reducing the amount given at the DF or do it cold turkey (but add the additional oz to day time bottles).  By continuing the DF at this age, you may be disrupting the night time sleep.

HTH

[jade85]

Hello, thanks for the reply!
He cry lying down that's when its might be possible that he goes back slp, or sometimes he cry sitting or standing up that's when he cried real bad and unconsolable. I had wanted to drop his df at 7mo, doing wat u had suggested. But he cant take more than 180ml milk in day time. I tried cold turkey he will wake around 12+am crying, i fed n he slp. So i decided to continue with df. If I do cold turkey way, wat do i do if he wakes? It seems no other way to make him slp. I tried reducing the oz during df bit by bit too... But he still wakes. Replace water also wakes up
His A time is about 3.5 Hr between his first morning waking n first morning nap. But after his first morning nap I tried a 4hr A time before his aft nap as I don't want him to be ot before bt! And i cant have an earlier bt due to work commitment.

[PaulsMom]

Ok, if he's sitting or standing, you want to pd and try to settle in his crib, if possible. 

When did you try to wean the df?  Was it recently?  Also, how much solid food is he taking in?  At this age, usually babies are on three decent sized meals.  Although milk is very important, getting them used to solids is too.  The other thing is that you can try adding an oz or two of milk to his solids ( eg. Cereals, any mashed foods, or any foods that you would normally add water or milk to, you can add his formula) or giving his some milk in a sippy with his meal.  This way, the additional oz are consumed, just not in his bottle.  So may be you can try adding the additional milk to his meals, and then gradually decrease the amt offered at the df and see how he does.

Wrt the a time, I must have mid understood his routine.  What time is he normally waking?  It looked like it was 5 am and first nap at 9 am???

[jade85]

I tried to wean off df at 7mo so been 2 months already., yes I been putting his milk into his solid. He is on 2 solid lunch and dinner + a morning snack. I'm planning to start him on breakfast soon. Even his usual 180ml milk sometimes he can't finish, so i have not been able to feed more milk. Sometimes he wakes at 5am and yes I put him to slp earlier say 830... Typically is about 3.5 Hr aftee his first morning wake up and bettween his morning nap.

[PaulsMom]

Ok, if you tried to wean the df two months ago, then I think you might want to try again.  He should be taking in more food now than he was when he was 7 mo old.  But I would also try to even out his feeds and meals throughout the day to see if this helps. 

Wu 6:00
E 6:00 (180 ml)
Breakfast 7:00
S 9:30
E 11:00 (180 ml)
Lunch 12:00
S 2:30
E 4:00 (180 ml)
Dinner 5:00
Bt routine 6:30
Bt 7:00

Wrt to napping.  He does need longer naps during the day.  I think this will reduce the OT by bt.  What activities are you doing during the day?  Does he get lots of floor time?  My DS was a bad napper until he was physically active (crawling, pulling up, etc).  I would "exercise him" for about 2/3 of his A time.  So lots of crawling , chasing balls, etc,  then he would be physically tired and would sleep.  Now he would also fight naps, etc so when I had to resettle him at this age, no talking, no eye contact, etc.  I would be there (eg. Lay my hands on him) but not interact with him or he wouldn't sleep.  You might want to try the same strategy with your DS. 

[jade85]

Yes he gets lots of floor time! And he is a very active boy. non stop moving! Last night or rather  a typical night. He had no df, woke around 2am, I fed. Hr slept till 4am woke again, I leave him a while he can't settle back, so I pat him slp and 5am he woke again. On both occassion he sit up crying! I'm lost and frustrated cos i can't seems to figure out why he keep waking up! On some days when he had longer day naps his night is still the same! And it has been going on for months!. i tried feed him more, but he can't finish. He's taking average half a cup to 3/4 cup solid each meals.

[PaulsMom]

what type of cry is it?  do you think he's in pain at all?  or is he just practicing in his sleep?   If it's been going on for months, then I guess the latter is less likely  .   Keep in mind that if he's OT, he won't sleep well at night and will be more restless. 

[jade85]

 Soft whimpering cry that goes on and off. he's definitely not in pain that im absoultely certain. If i leave him say 15 min sometimes he go back to slp sometimes it got escalated. but definitely not painful cry as i can distinguish from his occassionally fall and knock when he's on the floor. Yes it has been going on for mths that's why in puzzled and fruatrated. I tried wake to slp method thinking it cld be habitual waking, but yet not exactly he dont wake up on the dot a specific time is during a period say 145-230 his first ne, then either 1hr later wake again, or 1.5 Hr wake again or sometimes 2 hr wake again.

[PaulsMom]

Soft whimpering cry that goes on and off

Hmm...  I agree that if they have a fall or something and cry in pain, it is a different cry from this but to me this does sound like a discomfort cry.  So not a sharp pain but more of a throbbing one.  The frequency of waking also makes me think that it is also discomfort.  He has two teeth already.  Have you checked his upper gums?  Usually these are the next ones.  Also keep in mind that the teeth moving in the gums can cause a lot of discomfort so it's not just the cutting that can be painful.  This will be less obvious than when they are ready to cut their teeth.  What types of pain /teething relief have you tried?  I'm wondering if you should see if it makes a difference with his sleep pattern.

[jade85]

I did not use any teething gel. i rule out teething  :'(as it has been on going for months. I dont think teething bring discomfort for so long ? in fact i thinj he's taking the teethng quite well.. not so much bitting, drooling

[PaulsMom]

Ok, is it possible that he has a sore tummy?  Did this start when he started solids?  Is he constipated at all?

[jade85]

He does have occassional constipation. I was thinking of constipation as a reason too so been monitoring his bowel movements. But on days even when he has smooth and lots of bowel he also dont slp well. it seems like a daily affair ! I even take note of what diaper he's wearing if the diaper is causing wetnees and coldness that gives him discomfort ! The types of pyjamas he wesr is it 100% cotton etc , thinking if it could be itchness that wake up but not. ! Argh !

[PaulsMom]

Ok, I went back through your thread to see if there is anything else....  I still think that a whimpering cry is some kind of discomfort.  Also the frequency of nw's also makes me think discomfort.  Personally I think his room at 26 C is warm.  Are you able to drop the temp down to 22-24 C to see if it makes a difference? 

I guess wrt constipation, it's kinda "after the fact" in that he will have a bad night and the next day he will be constipated, yk? 

Are you having any luck with nap extensions?

[jade85]

Okay for the past couple of days, I tried drop room temp no difference to his nw, I fed him flax seeds and he have bowel movements twice a day constipation solved. Didn't quite manage to extend his nap.... i feel he doesnt know how to put himself to slp dueing his brief waking at night and is waking up using feeding to soothe himself back to slp. So i reduced his milk bit by bit over 2 days. Last night after he had his bottle he kept crying got agitated and no way i do can put.him back to slp. i struggled for an hour. Shld I then feed him milk to get him back to slp? I ended up pat pat leave him cry a while n offer some water n He went back slp. But morning still doesn't take his milk well...
So. it goes day 1 and day 2 woke at 2am and 4am gave 2.5 scoop milk each time usual is 3scoop. Went back slp
Day 3 reduced milk to 2scoop after finish still fussy and dont slp what to do for such cases? Feed again ?

[jade85]

Pls pls I really need help his nw of 2-4 times everynight since day 1 he was born was too  :'(much for me to cope as im a working mum...Im mentally tired and exhausted, quarreled with husband everyday, and feeling bad that I sometimes see my bb as a liability as its just so frustrating with dealing his nw ! I'm afraid i get into a depression again ! 

[PaulsMom]

Hugs, hun for the nw's.  It is sooo hard when you're tired and you also have to work!  Can your husband help out?  Even on week-ends so you can catch up on sleep?

OK, if independent sleep is the issue and feeding is a prop, then he needs to have some other way to sooth himself to sleep.  Does he have a lovey or a special blankie/ teddy, etc?  There are different methods you can try to get rid of the feed-to-sleep prop. 

the one method that you are doing right now is reducing the amount of formula per bottle over time.  In reviewing one of the FAQs, I think you need to do this more gradually so add 2.5 scoops for 3 nights, then drop to 2 scoops for another 3 nights, etc. 
How we stopped the night feeds with a 9 month old

The gentle removal plan is another method to consider.  Since you are bottle feeding, this is something that your DH can help out with also.  Gentle Removal Plan

[jade85]

Hey yes he has a beanie and a lovely , which he loves hugging them to slp. but that doesnt seems to soothe him also. Yes i read that gentle removal plan in faq but find it hard to identify when he sucking gets slower. As he isnt hungry and doesnt seems to suck vigorously. So I uses the reduced qty during feeding method as per the faq thread as well on jow to drop night feed. But after he finishes his bottled ( reduced quantity) he still cries fuss big time. I resort to giving water instead. okay last nit seems better. He woke ard 1230am, i feed some water he went back slp, woke again at 3am i feed milk reduced by another 30ml from previous 3nights of quantity he slept woke at 530am again I feed again and he fuss a bit then went.back slp till 7am. Am i doing right ? do i feed everytime he wakes up at night ? and what to do if he still fuss after the reduced.milk feed ?

[PaulsMom]

but find it hard to identify when he sucking gets slower

I would watch his neck and jaw to see when he's sucking and swallowing.  Do this during the day when you can see him well. 

I don't want to discourage you but I'm wondering if the gentle removal plan would be better because your LO is using feeding (or sucking) as a prop vs being genuinely hungry at night and needing the night feed.  By reducing the number of calories in a bottle, I think you still may be reinforcing the suck to sleep prop.  I suppose one alternative is if he took a paci then he could use that.  By 9 months, most LOs using a paci can control it themselves so it may not become a prop.