Support Thread for 2-1 Nap Transition cont'd pt 6

[jessmum46]

Hugs first mum, I agree with Ginger that first CN is too early so in total the A times before her 'proper' nap probably weren't long enough to make her tired enough for a decent one, even though overall she was tired.  We were doing more like 4h A, 15 mins CN, 2h A then main nap, or at least getting to 9/9.30am.  You might not need that long but I do agree that 2h A before a CN is too little.  It will come right in the end, just hang in there xx

[ginger428]

Posted my edit with you Katherine. Right on!

[lauraims]

Hi ladies

Just following along - a bit of background
My dd will be 1 at the end of this month. We've been on 2 naps since 6 months and in the last 3 months her naps have been very wonky.  We've had teething, crawling etc too.  But definitely seen a big jump in A times with her first A time being 4.5 hours now.  She only JUST makes it! But I get a 1.5-2 hour nap.  Have only been doing it for 6 days now - the first 4 days I had to resettle at the 30 min and 1hr05 marks.  She's finally sleeping through cycles.  We've only had 1.5hrs, 1.45hrs, 1.5, 2, 1.5, 1.5 nap lengths so far.  If the nap ends around 1 I just do EBT at 5.30.  She usually tacks on - not always though    Last night we had a 4hr50min A to bed  she was finding it hard to SS so I had to pat her bum.  We had one OT wake 45mins after bed.  Then 11.5hour sleep through until 5am.  Then I fed her and she resettled until 7.  So I guess I will try another 1 nap day with EBT.  What sort of wake up time do you not allow a CN? 
Also - have you had more success with a short CN at the beginning of the day or the end of the day?
My dd seems to need at least 2 hours A before bed so sometimes if I give her a CN at the end of the day the day ends up being way too long and then we get NW's. 

Looking forward to chatting a long the way and sharing some advice too

[lauraims]

Oh forgot to ask - is it common for nap lengths to be on the shorter side at the beginning of the transition?  Do they still think they're getting a second nap?  Once they realise they're not, they start sleeping more like 2-2.5 hours? 

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) Ginger you must be shattered after that night - is that normal atm?

Hello Laura, good to see you again I'm afraid all I can say is that from DS I remember it taking a little while for that one nap to lengthen but it did happen - however not long after I had to start capping to preserve the nights! Sounds like you're doing well though, will let someone further along the process answer your other questions...

[lauraims]

Thanks Trimbler. You too. Hope you are well !
Well I knew the nice long sleeping through the nights were too good to be true 😩 last night was so bad. Despite a 1.45min nap and 4hrs15mins to bed we had cry outs every 10 mins for about an hour just 2 hours after going to bed last night. Then a wake at 5 then 6.15. OT behaviour you think ? Maybe I need to keep offering the 30 min late arvo catnap for a couple more weeks ?
What sort of routine are all you ladies doing at the moment and how old is your Lo ?

[ladymugg]

Hi there

It depends on whether or not your LO is HSN or not... mine has about an 11-11.5 or 12hr (12 on the rarer side) night and then usually does 2 hrs during the day.  But that isn't always the case.  Depends what we have been up to - physical day, growth spurt, teeth can all make this longer or shorter. 

Current routine is:

6/6.30am WU
8 am breakfast
11.15/11.30 lunch
11.30/12 sleep
1.30/2 WU  (sometimes its 1pm, depends on the day)
3 pm snack
5.30 pm dinner
6.45 pm in bed, asleep

You can try for that CN but the closer your sleep gets to midday the less likely they are to take it.  Very occasionally will my daughter (15mo) go for a CN, usually around 4 pm (I don't really leave this any earlier or later, as she is UT before 4 pm or if I go any later than 4 pm we are getting super close to BT).  But I'm talking less than a handful of times since we went to 11.30am sleep that she will go for this.

I wouldn't stress too much about the length of sleep.  I have found out the hard way that around this 15mo period is approx. when the 4 molars are about to hit and that can make sleep go a bit wobbly for a week or so.  Also it is winter here and the cold season isn't helping some babies with that too.

Just go with the flow as I know you will, read those tired signs, and don't get too worried.

Hope that helps

[trimbler]

Oh dear sorry to hear that Laura, I've always assumed OT when mine have done that in the evening, especially because of the 5am WU which she resettled from. But could also be discomfort, maybe even more likely, idk... Sometimes with OT mine have just crashed out for 30-45mins and then had those typical OT NWs.

I'd felt more optimistic today when DD seemed to wake a bit later, not entirely sure when she woke but certainly better than previously, following a little nw around 3am and I think something around 11pm - can't quite remember now! Anyway DH called as I was leaving work to say she'd napped horribly and was going to have to do EBT - sure enough, she was down (though not asleep) by the time I got home My theory was that the later WU meant she probably needed a bit more taken off her short morning nap and so she wasn't quite ready to go down at the usual time, messed around and then did 40+40mins (UT becoming OT?), really tired all afternoon, apparently tried to lie down in the bath kind of on all fours face down, like she does in her cot! But DH wasn't convinced by that theory and thought it was discomfort - well, she does have a cold (although I thought she was getting over it) and he only medicated at BT (I'd been medicating before nap too as she was feeling rotten). Oh - and still no teeth whatsoever! So I get this niggling feeling that they're just taking a really long time to move up and causing her pain, but no facts to base that on Anyway, I'm thinking shave 5mins off the morning nap if we get a decent night with later WU, or not if it's a terrible night with EW... Btw we keep 'get up' time at 6.30 whatever happens, this is what DS's gro-clock is set for and it works well for getting ready for work - and CM drop off come September. I don't really want to move the nap times too much as I want to get to something that will work for the CM and school collection etc. So in theory we have few variables: morning nap length; pm nap (can move about 15mins each way and can allow a catch up atm but has to finish by 3pm by September); and BT. So should be simple, right? Sorry for,the rambles, I can't remember what I've already said here!

[lauraims]

Thanks ladymugg. My dad's only just 12months so even though she did well for the first 6 days on one nap with nice long nights and sleeping through, I don't this its sustainable as she's now soooooo OT!!!!
I cut her first A time yesterday to 4hrs10mins. She had to be resettled at the 35min mark then slept another 50mins. Then after 4hrs she had another hour nap. Then bed at 2.5hrs later. So quite a long day...she slept fine until midnight then we had another HORRIFIC night of waking every hour until wakeup at 5.30. Tried to resettle and she aitld for 10 mins or so then get frustrated again. She's getting her two teeth next to her top two at the moment. They're about to break the gum. So not sure if that's the reason.
Not too sure what to do on days where ages had very little night sleep. Will definitely be putting her to bed early!
Trimbler, definitely sounds like discomfort to me. I'm sure all those teeth will start coming down fast soon enough. She's probably dealing with heaps of pain? Poor wee things. What is your routine now ?
I really wanted to do the short am long pm but as you know I just couldn't get the second A time right 😣
I'm going to try this for a few more weeks
WU
4.15hrs - nap (hopefully 1.5)
3.5-4hrs - nap 30-45mins (depending on the night)
Bed 2.5hrs later (she doesn't go to sleep any earlier than 2.5hrs after a 30min nap

[Mariellamom]

Hi there,
our routine now is
7:30 WU
A time 5h30 min-6 hrs!
If it is less, DD has a shorter nap.
lunch
S 1h10min- 1h20
Snack
Dinner
BT 7:30
I've been waiting for her long nap for weeks. But it is not happening. Once in a while after not so good night she will nap for 2 hrs, but almost never two days in a row.
She is 12 months. We've started 2/1 transition when she was 8 m/old. LO is LSN.
Praise God her nights are good now. Although last week she was up once at night several nights and we had EW, where she needed a CN which almost doesn't happen now.
I know our A times are crazy long. But she seems to be ok and VERY ready for her nap

[First mum]

Hi Ladies, thanks for the support.  We've been trucking along and not doing to bad, unfortunately we have a sick LO again with yucky conjunctivitis, fever and the ever present teething (no teeth yet).  The dribble has amped up over the last 2 days so I'm hopeful.  The nap length is still a bit short for my liking but the last couple of days its been 90 minutes so who knows??

jessmum46 I actually try and avoid the catnap if possible as day-care are unable to settle her and she goes down a lot easier at 11:30 without it.  I think 5.5 A is a good window for her.  I'm aiming for the same on the other side with a 6:30 bedtime.  I'm sure I've mentioned before but when it comes to breastfeeding I have a very sleepy baby and the early morning cn is when she falls asleep feeding, I've tried feeding sitting at the table, walking around, singing, jiggling and she will generally still fall asleep.  I usually just slide her into the cot and set the timer for 15 minutes.  In saying that it hasn't happened for a few days and we have been away so if it has happened she has been in the car and it is around 9-9:30.  12pm nap has suited us as we had plans over the weekend so I didn't worry too much.  We had a pretty rough night with her last night and her morning hasn't been much better.  Awake at 6:50 but resettled pretty much every hour since midnight and hubby an I took shifts on her floor.  Very grizzly and cuddly and her eyes are just terrible, the fever seems to be less today, but I've been cycling with pamol and nurofen so it could be a result of that.  CN on me at 9:40, just fell asleep sitting on the couch.  I tried for nap at 11:45 but the builders next door where going crazy so no chance.  Asleep at 12:20 and woke 20 mins later and took me another 15 minutes to settle and she is still asleep coming up 45 mins.

Have stretched her bedtime, and we are at 6:20 but last night we had a meltdown and she was down at 5:50.  Feeling a bit low with everything.  I think she is ot, but to be honest I have no idea.  She is still not self settling to sleep during the day and I think that is contributing to my low mood.  No sure if I am riding the wave or just treading water at the moment.

[lauraims]

Hey girls. How are you all doing this week ?
Trimbler this last week I've gone back to trying a short pm long am and so far it's working!! The am nap is only 30 mins and after 3hours Wt. Then I get a 1.5-2hr nap 3-3.5hours later. Night times have been so bad the last 5 nights though as dd has a sore throat. Took her to the doctor and he said it's very red. She sounds so sick 😔and she's teething right now too. Last night we had a Wu at 10.30, 12, 3,4,5,6 then went back to sleep at 6.30 for 10 mins 😣😣😣😣 Im so tired. But I'm guessing it's just her sore throat and teeth. She's not eating much during the day so I've been feeding her (bf) at night.
Can't wait until she's better and we cAn see if her new routine is right for her nights.. 😴😴😴😴😴

[First mum]

Just an update... to add insult to injury my LO also go hand foot and mouth and has been miserable for the last 5 days    Night sleep has been particularly hard with long awake times with lots of crying.  I've spent a couple nights with her in my arms on a mattress on her floor as any attempt to move her has led to hysteria.  We are getting a good stretch from bedtime but from about 1am she is really distressed.

Day naps have lengthened considerably, I'm guessing due to the illness and ot but am hoping the habit sticks around.  The cn in the morning has been a bit of a movable feast with car rides being the flavour of choice.  Nap has been consistently 12:25 for the past 3 days with either 2 or 3 hours sleep.  80% in the cot and some on me.

I'm thinking about weaning the morning bf and trying to stretch her to 11:30-12 for a good na and steering away from the cn??  Not sure ??

I've done alot of thinking over the last week and I think what is bothering me the most is the time I have to spend getting her to sleep both for day naps and at bedtime if for some reason she doesn't fall asleep feeding.  We have had no independent sleep for 8 weeks when she first got sick and any attempt to leave her room at nap times leads to crazy hysteria.  I am guessing illness, molars and SA are all at play here so have decided to try and put all my concerns aside for another month and just go with the flow.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks again

[ginger428]

Sorry to hear about all the illnesses, firstmum.  Sounds like you might be really sleep deprived... I hope you've been able to find and steal times to rest.

What happens around 1am and what do you do? Have you already tried a dream medication?

I think weaning the morning bf and getting to a 11:30/12:00 nap is a good idea.  FWIW, when I weaned off bf or milk at certain times, I offered a snack as a distraction at first. Or an activity. Whatever works best initially. Also, when I was trying to drop the CN in the morning and/or extend A, I had to offer a hearty snack and keep DS doing a physical activity around the 9:00/10:00 hours or fatigue would set in.  We were fortunate enough to have a park only 10 min walking distance away, so I would always take him there around that time. Depends on the days, but now he can handle the long A's in the morning pretty well.

Regarding independent sleep... We've also been handling illness, molars, SA, and physical/mental developments here for the past few months and I did what you're thinking... to put concerns aside and help DS get through this.  After almost 3 months, DS was able to go back to going down at BT giggling ( ) and self-settling throughout most of the night (besides times when I knew he was in discomfort). During the 3 months, I did a lot of things you're supposed to avoid for independent sleep.  Most people on this forum would probably say that once they become ind sleepers, they can return fairly easily, so I was hopeful.  I didn't know how long it would take before things would get better, but certain times were more conducive to applying gently sleep training (ie when he finally mastered walking, or after a tooth popped), so I would use gradual withdrawal techniques and such. We went back and forth and even last night, we were back to DS being held and sleeping on DH in the middle of the night.

So FWIW, that's what we did and what happened. Our LOs are 2 weeks apart, and close to Ladymugg's LO, so we're probably in similar phases. Molars being a big one and then the language/mental leap in a few months. 

IMO, because your LO is going through so much right now, you can do whatever it takes to get the maximum amount of sleep for everyone, then as things drop off... implement strategies to encourage ind sleep.

What do you think?

[ginger428]

Laura, sorry about the illnesses too! Hopefully it'll pass soon.  Glad to hear the short am/long pm is working. =) Keep us updated.

How are things Mariellamom, ladymugg, and trimbler?