Author Topic: Twins- habitual night waking  (Read 5661 times)

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Offline Beweakley

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Twins- habitual night waking
« on: June 30, 2013, 12:42:57 pm »
I have 9.5 month old twin boys, Elijah and Everett.  Everett sleeps like a dream-- he puts himself to sleep (sometimes with a short protest), no props, and sleeps all night from 8:00 pm to around 6:30 a.m.  Everett is the dominant twin and has always been more of the Mr. Independent type.  When Everett decided he no longer needed the 3:45 a.m. night feed I discontinued it...for both boys.  However, Elijah still wakes at exactly the same time every night.  At first he would cry, then he got to where he was playing in his crib.  Now, he stirs and shuffles around his crib.  I think he's trying to go back to sleep, but then gets frustrated and starts crying and screaming.  This has been going on for a long time.  The boys share a room with cribs end to end.  Until last week, his crying and screaming never woke Everett.  Now it is.  I moved Elijah's crib into my bedroom this week hoping to address his wakings before they got out of hand.  I admit, I've tried everything I can think of.  I'm a middle school behavior specialist and you'd think I'd be able to figure out how to help him unlearn this behavior, but I'm struggling.  It doesn't help that it's the middle of the night and we're both exhausted.  I've tried letting him cry it out(that was when he was in their bedroom), I've gone in and done shush-pat, I've rocked, shushed, and felt like screaming myself.  Elijah's always needed more from me...he had to be on a fortified milk mix as a newborn, he had poop issues, etc. All of that is better-- no issues, no complications.  He currently weighs nearly 18 pounds and I know he's not hungry when he's waking.  It's just habit.  Most recently I tried wake to sleep.  The first night was great.  He slept through 3:45 but then woke at 5:00 (not typical).  The next night he heard my alarm and I was screwed. last night, he slept thru 3:45 only to wake at 4:00 and on and off until 5:00 at which point I put him in the bed with me (I know---I give you permission to think poorly of me at this point).  Now, let me give you a rundown of their schedule(which I'm a stickler for): 

6:30 wake and play Floor time(they don't want to eat yet)
7:00 fruit,cereal, yogurt and back to play  in exersaucers
8:45 4-6 oz. formula
9:00 nap
10:30 wake and play
11:00 fruit, veggies (maybe an ounce or two of milk--sometimes they want it sometimes they dont)
Back to play
12:15 4-6oz. Formula
12:30 nap
2:00 wake and play
3:00 4-6oz. Formula
4:15 another 4 oz. or so
4:30 nap
6:00 wake and play
6:30 fruit, veggies
Play
7:15 baths, books
7:45 4-6oz. Formula laced with a teaspoon of cereal (I just started trying this-thought it might help and it did for two nights, but that was two weeks ago)
8:00 bed

Both boys are very active during the day, floor time, crawling around, exersaucers, outside play, etc. No teeth on the scene yet.  Lots of slobbering, and chewing, but no redness or swelling.

I should also note that Elijah puts himself to sleep most of the time.  Sometimes I have to go in and shush-pat for a second.  He also ONLY sleeps in one position and I think that's what frustrates him the most in the middle of the night. He sleeps prone with knees tucked under him, butt in the air and arms tucked like little chicken wings under him. No props, never took a pacifier for more than a few days after he was born.  He does cuddle with a very thin receiving blanket when he can get it tucked under him the way he wants it.  I think that about covers it.  Any advice will be strongly considered and greatly appreciated. 



Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 13:00:22 pm »
Hi and welcome to BW! :)

It looks to me like your biggest issue is their routine.  They are getting too much daytime sleep and thus having a short night of 10.5hr and Elijah is not able to get himself back to sleep when he wakes.  I think it's probably starting to be an issue of Everett as well, since he started waking when Elijah was crying when previously he didn't.  Most 9.5mo olds are on two naps of 1-1.5hr each and about 3-3.5hr A time.  Take a look at these links and let me know what you think... Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! , chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months.

Also, we are opposed to any type of CIO at BW, but would love to help you find a way to get him back to independent sleep and STTN with other techniques.  Your boys are right in the age where separation anxiety can be a big issue.  You will likely need to work on regaining Elijah's trust by staying with him as he settles and then gradually working your way back out as you work on making the routine adjustments. Regaining Trust of Your Child

HTH!



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 14:21:58 pm »
Thanks for the advice and the links to the schedules.  After looking at their schedule, I tried to push their A time a little longer yesterday and limited them to two naps...that moved bedtime to about 7:15 last night.  Everett slept until 6:20 and was very chipper this morning.  Elijah slept really well until 11:30 and then he was up off and on until about 1:30.  I tried to just shush- pat and tell him it was time to sleep.  It would help for a bit and the he'd start stirring again.  I finally put him in the bed with me at 1:30 and he slept until 6:10.  He didn't wake at 3:45, but it's not exactly ideal in how we got there.  I'm hoping that revamping the schedule will help him adjust.  Could it be that he's also sleep deprived? This has been going on for months.  Even when I fed them in the MOTN he often wouldn't go back to sleep right away. 

Any suggestions on how to help him settle at MOTN? I know seperation was a big deal when they started sleeping in their own cribs.  They shared a crib until they were five months.  At that point they were very squirrely and rolling over.  That's when Elijah really started to struggle at night.  That's also when I stopped swaddling...which they loved.  I admit I tried CIO only on the advice of other mommas who had suggested it.  Not a fan of it myself and one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do.  Not going to try it again.  Thanks for your help.  Everyday, i wake up blessed and every night I go to bed hopeful....for sleep for us all. 

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 15:02:51 pm »
It may just take Elijah a bit longer to settle into the routine.  He sounds like the more spirited of the two.  What did their day look like on two naps?  Maybe we can tweak it a bit to help him.

Do you think he is teething at all? The frequent wakes early in the night suggest either some OT or discomfort to me.  It's possible that he has some built up OT from months of not getting enough night sleep, but he was getting decent naps, so I don't think it would be too bad. 

As for settling in the MOTN, I would just stay consistent with one method and see if through.  Use shh/pat, but at this age, your voice is the key.  So, don't shh/pat or rub his back til he's all the way to sleep, but just until calm and then sit with him, reassuring him with your voice until he can drop off on his own.  It will be best to eliminate the other possibilities of him waking though, to make sure there's not something preventing him from falling back to sleep on his own. 

(((Hugs))) on the CIO, I've BTDT on the advice of others as well.  It's unfortunate it's such an advocated method, because it is definitely not the best one and is much more likely to cause angst/harm than good.  I'm glad you found us... we'll be happy to help you try to figure this out without any CIO. :)



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 19:03:59 pm »
So far things are going pretty smoothly today.  So far  :) Here's our schedule on two naps:

6:15ish wake and play
7:00 breakfast-cereal, fruit, yogurt,offer sippy of milk but takes very little
Resume play until 9:15
9:15 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
9:30 nap
10:45 wake and play
11:30 lunch- fruit, veggie, offer sippy of milk
Resume play until 1:45
1:45 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
2:00 nap
3:15-3:30 wake and play
4:15 4-5 oz. sippy of milk
Resume play
5:30 supper- fruit, veggies, offer sippy of milk
6:00 walk outside/ play
6:30 baths, books
7:00 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
7:15ish bedtime

That was yesterday's schedule and we're on the same track today. 

About Elijah--- maybe teething? He's definitely chewing a lot during the day but I can't see any irritation.  He's so laid back about stuff it's hard to tell if he's really bothered by it. Tonight's goal is going to be that he stays in his crib with me sitting near and talking to him. It makes so much sense when you say that my voice is the key at this age.  Because I can simply say, "Elijah, it's time to sleep," and he immediately starts to snuggle into his little sleeping position.  Sometimes it's enough for me to say that, and sometimes he needs more.  I was gone this morning, but my mom said that he went down with no protest at the first nap.   Just now, same thing.  I laid him down told him it was time to sleep and I walked out and stood by the door.  I heard him motor boating (blowing raspberries for a couple of minutes) and then he was out! His awake time must have been about the exact time he needed for him to have nodded off like he did. 

Everett protested a little more before this nap and I had to go in and do shush-pat for a few seconds.  He's standing and pulling up on things so that's his new thing to do in the crib.  I only had to lay him down once and pat for a few seconds.  Then he settled right in...he was on the verge of being OT and a little fussy as a result. Elijah's not yet standing or pulling up like Everett is or I'm afraid this would be much more difficult.

I had tried to move to two naps a couple of weeks ago in an attempt to help both boys STTN.But I was met with a lot of resistance and crankiness.  And being out numbered (especially when my husband's at work) I gave in to the three naps still.  Trying ths again this week has already proved more successful, so they must be ready for it. 

Do you think I should move Elijah's crib back in to their room? The only reason I moved him in to  mine was to try to catch him shuffling and stirring before he became fully awake.  That's harder to hear on the monitor especially with two of them in there and over the sound of their white noise playing.  Maye keep him with me through this week and see if things are rounding out? My husband might have to tough it out in the spare bedroom a little while longer...  ;)

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 13:28:45 pm »
The routine looks pretty good to me.  It was quite a jump in A time for them, so it's normal to be met with a bit of resistance while their bodies adjust.  I would over the next week, gradually move the A time out to 3.5hr, as where you are right now at 3.25, they're not sleeping a full nap of 90min (which they might settle into after a few days). Also, I wouldn't be hesitant to get them down for bed a bit earlier while they adjust, 6:45-7pm might help that last A time not get too long.  But overall, it sounds like it's going well!

As for Elijah's crib, I'd keep it in with you for a little longer while they settle in to the new routine.  Once things are ironed out a bit, he can go back and if he wakes, hopefully Everett will be sleeping more soundly now that he won't wake.  While Elijah is in with you, I would not try to catch him while he's just stirring and shuffling, as you are more likely to become a prop that way.  He may stir and shuffle and even make noises, but then go back to sleep on his own.  It's always best to wait for him to really need you before going to him, so he doesn't continue to wake when he doesn't need to.



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2013, 21:35:05 pm »
I'm trying to continue to stretch their A time if not but by a few minutes each day.  I'm not giving up, but last night was rough!  Elijah woke three times last night.. 1:15, 3:00 and 5:00.  Yuck!  Everett even woke up last night at 11:45 and was crying.  I really think we're in the midst of some teething.  He even has a little swollen spot and redness on his gums today.  Both boys calmed rather quickly with Elijah's longest time occuring at the 5:00 time.  Any recommendations on dealing with the teething since that is going to start messing with STTN?  Have you ever used those Hyland's teething tablets? 

While Elijah is in with you, I would not try to catch him while he's just stirring and shuffling, as you are more likely to become a prop that way.  He may stir and shuffle and even make noises, but then go back to sleep on his own.  It's always best to wait for him to really need you before going to him, so he doesn't continue to wake when he doesn't need to.

Totally agree on this and I realize that's what I've been over and over for him. Last night, I desperately tried to wait him out and not say anything until he cried.  Boy, that's tough, but I know it will pay off in the long run. 

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 13:19:04 pm »
Hi hon, sorry it took me a little while to get back to you.... Ugh, teeth! Sometimes they just mess with everything.  The best thing you can probably do is be as consistent as possible, but know that they may need a bit more 'help' in the MOTN and things may be a bit wonky for a little while.

Have you ever used those Hyland's teething tablets? 
I haven't.  When I mentioned them to our doctor, she wasn't super excited about them, so I've never tried them.  But, I do have some friends who use them and swear by them.  I've always used a combination of Tylenol and Motrin.



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2013, 13:21:39 pm »
I'm not sure what else to do.  Elijah was awake from 12:15 to 1:40 last night.  He was kicking wildly and I did hear some gas so that might have been the culprit but he was up for so long after that.  I also think I'm a prop for him...not sure what to do.

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2013, 14:02:19 pm »
Sounds like discomfort. :(. The way to get out of being a prop at this age is to settle with your voice, using touch when needed, and then gradually move farther and farther away until he is doing it on his own and you are out of the room.

Have you tried giving meds for the teething?  Did he eat anything different yesterday that could be causing gas/discomfort?



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2013, 16:41:37 pm »
I gave the hylands teething tabs for the last two nights.  It seemed to help the night before, but I don't knw what was going on last night.  Everett did well with the tabs and i had to give him a few during the day because he was very grumpy and has some redness.  Since Elijah's  in the room with me, I've been trying to settle him with my voice and not getting out of bed.  But I had to get up three times to shush pat... Each shush pat was only a few seconds and the last one did the trick.  He was so tired by that point that he nodded off pretty quickly after.  I'm thinking of putting him back in their bedroom so I can start to move myself further away. 

Foods were all ones he's eaten before...regularly.  But it could have been something like that.  I have a menu for them because I won't remember without it.  I need to watch to see if the Thursdays foods are bugging him.

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2013, 18:15:57 pm »
You sound very organized!  It will be interesting to see if you find anything. 

Sounds like you have a good plan in moving him back.  Let me know how it goes... :)



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2013, 10:50:12 am »
Ha! Well I guess I try to be!

So, I decided to wait on moving Elijah back because Everett's been waking in the night crying.  He woke up with a whimpering cry from yesterday's nap and had a hard time going to bed last night.  I blame teething.  On a brighter note....a really bright note....Elijah slept from 7:30 to 5:30 this morning! That's the longest stretch of time he's ever slept!  He barely stirred in the night!  I was in disbelief when I woke up this morning.  Granted, I would have preferred a time closer to 6:30 or later, but I'll take what I can get at this point.  Let's pray for more nights like this!

Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 10:36:34 am »
What are the possible culprits of waking early in their sleep shortly after going to bed? Everett cried in his sleep off and on all night and I know his is from teething.  Elijah woke at 10:45 and stayed awake until 12:30. We did have to go to bed a little earlier than usual since they started the day so early yesterday.  But Elijah's so inconsistent...night before he slept 7:30-5:30, last night he slept from 6:45-10:45, then awake until 12:30.  Back to sleep until 4:45 and awake again. I think Elijah's teething too.  His inconsistency makes me want to pull my hair out.

Offline amayzie

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2013, 12:36:39 pm »
Usually waking in the early night is from OT but can also be from being too hot
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2013, 18:14:32 pm »
Hi hon, sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you! :-[

I agree, early NWs are most often OT.  They can also be from temperature, digestive uncomfortableness, or teething. My guess is that you're dealing with some OT (as even when Elijah did a straight night, he only slept 10hr, which would be another indicator of OT) and likely teething pain.  Have you tried giving any other meds, like Tylonel or Motrin?  I understand if you don't want to use them too much, but they sure can help when teething is rough.  What have your last few days looked like?  Maybe we can find out where OT might be sneaking in.



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2013, 21:06:21 pm »
Thank you both for responding.  I ended up giving both boys a bit of Tylenol last night since they were fussy all day.  Even with that on board, Everett woke throughout the night whimpering and crying. Once Elijah fell asleep the second time, he was out...didn't even acknowledge hearing Everett through the monitor.  Our day still looks about the same with the exception that I backed down the A time a few minutes because the boys were falling asleep in the living room!  I did change things a little yesterday because they got up at 5:30.  So they went to bed at 6:45 as a result.  That was their earliest bedtime yet.  So far, this is the track we're on today; it's the same as before. 

 

6:15ish wake and play, sippy
7:30 breakfast-cereal, fruit, yogurt
Resume play until 9:15
9:30 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
9:40 nap
11:00 wake and play, sippy
12:00 lunch- fruit, veggie
Resume play until 1:45
1:45 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
2:00 nap
3:15 wake and play
4:15 4-5 oz. sippy of milk
Resume play
5:30 supper- fruit, veggies, offer sippy of milk
6:00 walk outside/ play
6:30 baths, books
7:00 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
7:15ish bedtime



I agree they're OT because they've been reluctant to finish their naps and they're showing signs of being tired before we get to bed.  I know going from two hours of A time to three was a big jump.  It seems like they can barely get to three so anything more is really pushing it. I tried to hold them off a bit longer this morning hoping to get closer to the 7:30 bedtime instead of the 6:45 time. I've  had to get pretty inventive in the evenings to keep them up until close to 7:00.  Last night my husband was holding Elijah while i put Everett's pjs on and i heard him say, "hurry hon, Elijah's starting to nest!" and sure enough i look over and he's trying to go to sleep on Willie's chest which never happens unless he's exhausted.  So, the first A time today was 3 hrs. 25 minutes.  The second A time was 3 hours and this last A time will run close to 3 hrs and 45 minutes as I try to get closer to 7:00.  Any suggestions?

Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2013, 22:52:37 pm »
Well, we didn't make it to 7:00.  I just got them down at 6:45.  Hope that doesn't bite me in the morning with another EW.  Yuck.

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2013, 17:53:30 pm »
How did the night go?  I always think it's better to put them down when they're ready for BT, as pushing them tends to make them OT, which often makes the night worse.  Your BT is going to be naturally earlier for a little bit, since you cut out the 3rd nap.  Most LOs will make up for the lost sleep at night, but not all.  Have you ever tried an early BT?  From your routine yesterday, I would've gone for 6:30 or even 6:15. Even if they still wake up at 6:00-6:15 in the morning, they're getting a much better night's sleep and will be better able to make the longer A times during the day.

So, the first A time today was 3 hrs. 25 minutes.  The second A time was 3 hours and this last A time will run close to 3 hrs and 45 minutes as I try to get closer to 7:00.  Any suggestions?
I know they've had a big jump in A times, and that can take a little while to settle in, but these are much more appropriate for their age.  I still think the second A time needs to be a bit longer, closer to 3.5hr (you don't have to go there all in one jump, just by 15min or so every couple days), because that nap isn't a full one and then you're ending up with that really long A til BT.  I always think it works out a bit better if the A times are more even throughout the day.

(((Hugs))), hope those teeth come through quick for you!



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2013, 21:24:40 pm »
Well, last night was hellish and probably not a good night to measure anything by.  Everett woke every 45 minutes screaming and crying.  Then Elijah woke at 10:30 while Everett was crying too.  I ended up with both of them in my bed sleeping on my chest until my husband got home from work.  He put Elijah back in his crib and unfortunately I kept Everett just so we could all get some sleep.  He would scream the second I put him down and has done the same thing at all of his naps today.  He's so miserable and that was with a dose of Tylenol.  As a result today's been off a bit too because he's not sleeping more than an hour at any nap.  And again our A times have been inconsistent.  Tomorrow I'm going to do everything I can to get to that 3.5 mark at each A time.  I know they can do it because they stay awake longer when we go out.  If I have to we'll run a few errands during their A times tomorrow to get us closer to our goal. 

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2013, 01:25:40 am »
(((Hugs))), that does sound like teeth.  Poor boys (and mama)!  Have you ever tried Motrin or Advil?  I found (and I know this has been true for other moms on here) that ibuprofen seems to relieve the teething pain a little better and for longer.  It might be worth a try at BT.

They also might struggle to go too much longer for A times while teething, as it can make them more tired.  Just push carefully, and see what happens.

Hope tonight is better! :-*



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2013, 01:50:39 am »
Thanks for the advice on the motrin.  I'll give that a try tomorrow.  I tried the Tylenol again tonight to see if it would get any better.  Any tips on giving it?  Previous use has never been a problem, but they are hating to take it now.  They've never had many meds... Only a dose when they get their shots and that's it.  They always took it with no problem, but it was a fight tonight.  They kept trying to spit it out and make a mess that I gave it to them while they were in the bath.  I was hoping fun bath time would distract them from it...it didn't work.   :-\. Oh, and I guess teeth also bring with them runny noses? Ggrrrr....

Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2013, 10:41:46 am »
A much, much better night last night.  Everett only woke a couple of times crying and stopped almost as quick as he started.  I never went in there.  Elijah still woke at 12:15 and was awake until about 1:15.  But this was still a mini victory because it was a shorter time than normal and he put himself back to sleep with only me talking to him.  Granted, i did a lot of talking and trying to encourage him but thats still better than the norm. He woke again at 5:00 and once again I talked to him a little and he went back to sleep after a short time.  I don't actually know what time he went back to sleep, but I know it was too long. Maybe twenty minutes or so.  I'm thinking there's a couple patterns developing with his wakings.  I might try wake to sleep tonight with one of those times.  Today's goal: consistent A times of 3.5.  They woke at 6:15 this morning so we'll be heading for a nap around 9:45.  I'll let you know how it goes today.

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2013, 13:18:51 pm »
So glad the night was better! :)  Do keep me posted...

As for meds, I've heard of moms putting it in the last bottle of the day, that way they don't taste it as much and you don't have to deal with the syringe.  I've also heard of doing it in the bath as you did.  I usually just try to put it in the side of their mouth by the cheek toward the back and squeeze, but it can still come out if they don't want it.  You could also try another flavor... my DS would spit it out right away if I gave him cherry flavor acetaminophen, but did fine with grape. :P  Another benefit of maybe trying ibuprofen is that it supposedly tastes better.  My dad is an ER doc and says they use ibuprofen in kids whenever appropriate and possible because they tend to take it better.



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2013, 21:52:14 pm »
I swear I can't get two good nights in a row! Or more than one good night in a week.  I gave both boys ibuprofen last night.  We had a great day with consistent A times, great naps and went to bed right on time.  Elijah woke at 12:15 and was up until 2:00.  At which time I was shush patting and realized his entire sheet was wet from snotting  and slobbering all over it.  tired of fighting with him and realizing he was uncomfortable from teething, I put him in the bed with me.  We might've actually slept really well until Everett decided to wake up at 5:30.  Yuck!  I go back to work in three weeks and I'm going to lose my mind if they're not sleeping any better by then.  There's no way I'll be able to teach and function at school like this especially since I won't get any nap during the day.  Today they've been fussy but we've ad consistent times again today.  Looking forward to a better night.

Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2013, 11:46:18 am »
Last night was bad too.  I thought it was going smoothly...I did wake to sleep to keep Elijah from waking just after midnight, success! But the he woke at 2:38 and stayed up off and on until almost 5:00!  He was gassy and struggling with a runny nose.  I'm going to remove green beans from his diet for a week and see if that helps.  To make matters worse Everett woke again at 5:30.  I couldn't function on a half hour of sleep at that point.  I brought him into the bed with me where we dozed off and on until 7:10. 

I don't get it.  Elijah used to wake only once now it's twice or one really long time.  He gets plenty of attention from me during the day so it's not like he enjoys the time in the middle of the night.  And i know he's teething, but really?  I've been dealing with this for five months!  We're both miserable in the MOTN.  :'(

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2013, 13:07:24 pm »
Oh (((hugs))), hon. I'm sorry the bad nights keep coming. :(. Is your DH not able to help with one boy, so you can get a little more sleep?

Are you willing to give Elijah a second dose of meds when he wakes? I'm wondering if you gave it at 2:30/3am and cuddled him for 20-30min then he's go back to sleep better for the rest of the night.

Are the days still going well?



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2013, 13:36:54 pm »
Well, I read in Tracy's long interview that teething only lasts for three nights in a row.  If that's the case then Elijah's third night is tonight, and it makes sense that Everett's had fairly good nights (these last two) except for the EW.  DH is unable to help because of work and since I'm off from work for the summer I'm more available and can function without a lot of sleep. Not well, but I function.

I'm willing to try giving Elijah a second dose if that will help.  Is it possible that he needs less sleep? I'm hesitant to even think that because he's always so ready for his naps and typically is the one I have  to wake up.  he always seems tired.  in fact he's fussy right now and content to sit in my lap.  He'd got to bed right now if I let him and he's only been up since 7:10.

The days have been okay.  I've managed to keep consistent A times.  Although I don't know about today since we got up a little later.  If I do 3.5 hours of A time  then that puts their second nap a lot later in the day with a later bedtime.  Not sure if I need to do that or try to cut it back a bit.  7:30 seems like their ideal time but I need some advice as to how to achieve that. 

Oh, and Elijah just fell asleep in my lap. This never happens.  He seems desperate for it today which makes sense since last night was bad.

Any advice on the EWs?  I really appreciate all of your help.  Pretty sure I'd have gone crazy by now without it. 

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2013, 20:02:00 pm »
More (((hugs))) hon.  I know it's different when you're at home, but with two kids sometimes something has to give.  Could he get up with Everett and 5:30 and try to get him back to sleep?  That's still a pretty full night for an adult. :-\  Hopefully, he can at least help out a bit on the weekend. 

Is it possible that he needs less sleep? I'm hesitant to even think that because he's always so ready for his naps and typically is the one I have  to wake up.  he always seems tired. 
Yes, it's possible he need less day time sleep.  He may always seem tired and be ready for his naps because he's up in the night.  But, then he makes up for it in his naps and is up again in the night.  It's a vicious cycle and one that's very common around this age.  That's why I asked for their EAS routines... would you post them for the last couple days?  It can be hard to tell when they're teething though, as it's hard to know exactly why they're waking in the MOTN.

As for today and the later start... you can always cap the second nap at 45min/1hr or wherever needed to keep with the same BT.  FX you get a better night tonight! :-*



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2013, 01:58:32 am »
You're right it's vicious!! So, here's our EAS for the last couple of days....


Wednesday:

A 6:15
E sippy 6:30
E solids 7:45
E bottles 9:35
S 9:45
A 11:15
E 12:00 sippy
E 1:30 solids
E 2:35 bottles
S 2:45
A 4:15
E 4:45 sippy
E 6:00 solids
   7:15 baths, books
E 7: 45 bottles
S 8:00 (that's the first night I gave ibuprofen and Elijah was up from 12:15-2:00- he ended up in the bed with me after slobbering all over his sheets. Everett sept sound from 8:00-5:30)


Thursday

A 5:30
E 5:45 sippy
E 7:00 solids
S 8:45
A 10:30
E 10:45 sippy
E 12:00 solids
E bottles 2:10
S 2:15
A 3:30
E sippy 4:00
E solids 5:30
   6:30 baths, books
E 7:00 bottles
S 7:20 ( both had ibuprofen before bed- Everett was asleep within a couple of minutes.  Elijah had a harder time settling in.  Did WTS with success at 11:45, he woke at 2:38 and was very awake until about four and then dozed off and on waking several more times until 5:00.  Didn't get him out of the crib..just shush pat-- Everett woke at 5:30-- we dozed until about 7:10)

Friday

A 7:10
E 7:20 sippy
E 8:45 solids
E 10:40 bottles
S 10:55
A 12:20
E sippy 12:45
E solids 2:15
E bottles 3:50
S 3:55
A 4:40 elijah woke on his own at this time and clearly wasn't happy about it.  I used it as a way to get back on track.  So, I got them both up and we went to a friend's for a visit.
E 5:55 sippy
S 6:45 for about 15 minutes they fell asleep in the truck on the way home
A 7:00 arrive home
E 7:20 solids
   7:35 baths
E 8:00 bottles
S 8:10 Everett's asleep in a couple minutes, Elijah struggled and fell asleep after a few shush pats around 8:30

I haven't heard a peep out of either boy since they fell asleep.  I also didn't medicate either one since neither acted fussy today.  If Elijah's wakes and appears to be in pain then I'll give him a MOTN dose.  I'm also going to try WTS again tonight with Elijah at 11:45 again since that was successful last night. I would do other times too if I thought it would help, but I can't predict what other times he'll wake.

I think I'm gonna head to bed too.  Hopefully we'll have a better night.  Lord knows we are due one!!
I know I wrote a lot. Thanks for taking the time to examine our schedules and for helping us!


Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2013, 18:16:23 pm »
How did the night go?

From your EASs, it looks like the day is getting too long.  Some days they are likely ending up OT at BT, some days they may have just had too much day sleep.  They are doing well with the 3.5hr A time though, so that's great.

What if you tried something like this...
Wake 6:30am
Nap 1 10-11:30am
Nap 2 3-4pm
BT 7pm

If you get a random EW (like from teething, not several in a row which would indicate OT/UT), you could let the second nap go a bit longer again to make it to a better BT.  But, typically at this age, you'll be looking for about 2.5-3hr day sleep and 11-11.5hr night sleep.

What do you think?



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2013, 19:20:31 pm »
Elijah slept really until 3:30.  He woke up talking and playing in his crib (didnt appear to be in any teething pain). He settled back down around 4:30.  Everett then woke at 5:00.  Yuck!  I got him to settle back down until 6:30 and that's when both boys woke again.

I think we can definitely try that schedule today.  So far we are on it exactly.  They had a good nap from 10-11:30 and are currently down for nap #2.  They're not fussy today (as much).  I'll let you know how it goes!

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2013, 20:00:50 pm »
FX! :)



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2013, 11:38:10 am »
Well, per my DH's request Elijah's crib was moved back into their bedroom yesterday.  Naps went great, but then BT came and it was like the boys had never seen each other or shared a room. After they talked and laughed at each other both settled to sleep at 7:20.  Both slept sound until 3:40ish when Elijah woke for his nightly play.  I went in and waited on the floor until he really needed me before intervening.  About 30 minutes in to his play he had an audience of one standing in his adjoining crib watching.  Both struggled to go back to sleep at which point I woke DH to come help. After all why should he be left to slumber when no one else in the house can. Elijah settled back to sleep near 5:00 and Everett took until 5:30.  Then it was back awake at 6:30. I will give them one more night to see if the "new" of being in the same room has worn off. If tonight is bad then I only have one more option and that's to move both cribs upstairs where I can separate them and where i can sleep in one of the bedrooms too. Im also going to try WTS at 3:15 to see if that will help Elijah get through that slump.  I'm going to keep the same schedule you suggested today and maybe it will just need another couple days to adjust. 

Oh and yes I'm thoroughly frustrated with DH who still doesn't really get how bothersome this whole thing is.  His idea to solve the problem is just to let them sleep in the bed with me or be a prop for them.  I can't make him understand that one of the reasons they're struggling is because he's had a prop (either him, myself or my parents) this whole time.  I'm just frustrated this morning and need to vent a bit.  After waking him last night, DH might rethink things.  We'll see.

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2013, 01:31:01 am »
(((Hugs))) honey, vent away! :-* I can't imagine how tough it is getting up with both of them night after night. It's so true that DHs often don't get it until they are the ones getting up too. Please keep sharing your feelings with him and getting him up to help when you need it. It's a lot to have to do on your own.

As for the routine and room sharing, you might have to give it more than 2 nights to see if it's working. I'd say up to a week or two, but I'm not the one there, so obviously do what you feel is best.

Keep up the good work, hon.



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2013, 10:54:35 am »
Well DH must have been feeling bad about his decision because he was very helpful around the house and with the boys yesterday.  He went on to say that if it continues we'll move a crib back into our room.  Only one night to change his behavior!  I wish it were that easy to change all negative behaviors!   :P

So yesterday was off, naturally, since the night had been so bad.  They woke at 6:30 and I thought we'd be on schedule all day, but they woke 15 minutes early from their first nap and only slept 30 minutes during their second nap (thanks daddy and uncle Daniel who were making too much noise in the garage).  Needless to say they had an  early BT to prevent more OT.  They went down at 6:35 and were asleep immediately.  No chit chat among cribs tonight.  I did WTS at 11:45 trying to get Elijah through the 12:15 time and it worked only for him to wake at 12:38.  Survival mode kicked in because I was exhausted too so I took Elijah upstairs and he and I slept in that bed. Everett slept sound until 5:30.  11 hours!  That's ideal.  Elijah slept pretty well too once he stopped playing in the bed beside me.  Not sure what time that was as I was nodding off myself.  That's not what I want but I had to get some rest.  I have another plan in mind involving putting a crib upstairs to have on standby as needed. 

So here's the plan for today. 

A 5:30
S 9:00
A 10:30
S 2:00
A 3:30
S 7:00

Of course if they wake early from naps I'll back that BT up. 

It's so nice being able to bounce these ideas and thoughts off someone else that's been there recently or is there now.  So many of my friends are like, "oh, I don't remember what we did" or "my babies STTN".  Please know that I am extremely grateful for your advice and encouragement.  It gets me through this tough time. 

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2013, 18:46:58 pm »
Well DH must have been feeling bad about his decision because he was very helpful around the house and with the boys yesterday.  He went on to say that if it continues we'll move a crib back into our room.  Only one night to change his behavior!  I wish it were that easy to change all negative behaviors!   :P
LOL, glad he was as good help! :)

Sounds like you've got a good plan for the day... I hope the boys follow suit.  One thing I noticed is the time you're doing w2s in the MOTN.  For NWs, Tracy thought it best to be done an hr before the habitual time (so they are in a heavier stage of sleep and you rouse them to start a new sleep cycle).  So, if the habitual wake is around 12:15am, I'd go in and do w2s at 11:15.

Keep me posted!  Oh and, don't beleive everything your friends say! ;)



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2013, 10:50:48 am »
It's been a few days....I've had to do some school stuff this week, professional development and the like. So the boys have been in the care of my husband and parents during the day.  If this is a preview of what's to come in three weeks when I'm back to work full time, I'm doomed.   :'(. My mom tried to stick to my schedule, but the boys weren't finishing naps and BT was getting earlier and earlier each day this week.  Then the NWs got worse because they're OT and Everett continued with the EW because his 11 hours was complete and Elijah's still trying to sleep in because he's been up half the night. I've ended up with them in the bed with me over and over again just so I can get some sleep.  And I'm still not getting any with two hot little creatures squirming about! I was back home today and managed to get an hour out of each nap and BT at 7:00 which is the latest time so far this week.  I have to get closer to 7:30 or Everett's not going to stop waking at 4:55! I believe Everett is an easy remedy as long as I can get back to a decent BT.  I don't even know what to do with Elijah any more.  I can't do ST in the bedroom with Everett because he wakes up too.  (nightmare for me).  So I haven't been consistent in that manner at all.  The only thing I've consistently done is put him in the bed with me! this is not what I want at all.

Please don't think I'm unappreciative of your help or that I haven't valued your advice.  I'm trying to implement the strategies you have given me, but I don't know how to ST with Everett in the room. And I can't predict Elijah's NWs anymore.  Last night it started at 10:30 and was off and on all night. I swear I want the 3:45 time back!  And I never thought I'd say that.  At least I knew it was coming.  Now, he wakes multiple times instead of just the once that he used to do.  Ggggrrrr....

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2013, 14:17:46 pm »
(((Hugs))) hon, I don't think you sound unappreciative, it's hard to deal with so many NWs night after night. 

Are you still working on the 3.5hr A time and not getting full naps?  What exactly are the days looking like?

What's going on with the teething?  Still working on them or do you think it has subsided?  How about develomental stuff? 

Do they sleep with white noise?  Do you think Everett would be less likely to wake if there was a fan going through the night to stifle some of the Elijah's noise?  Have you tried moving Elijah to a different room... I remember you were thinking about that at one point.



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2013, 21:47:19 pm »
Yes, we're still doing 3.5 Hrs of A.  And naps are an hour to an hour fifteen at the most.  This was yesterday:

Everett A at 3:00, I put him in the bed with me and fought with him and he dozed until 6:30.  Elijah was already in bed with me and he woke on and off all night.  He immediately woke at 6:30 also even without sleeping much through the night. 

2nd A 6:30
      S 10:00
      A. 11:00
      S 2:30
      A 3:30
      S 6:55

Today so far:
       A 6:30
       S 10:00
       A 11:15
       S. 2:45
       A. 3:30, but they dozed a little more until 3:45ish
Shooting for a BT of 7:00. 

Everett has a little tooth eruption today.  First day ive seen the redness and little chicklet trying to pop up.  Still nothing with Elijah but he's more fussy this week like Everett was last week. So, I guess they start to really suffer the week before any eruptions? Everett doesn't appear to be really affected by it though. Noses are still runny too. 

Developmentally, Everett is cruising and Elijah's trying to pull up but it's harder for him since he combat crawls and is pulling up from a laying position.  He's been able to do it several times so maybe thats part of his issue too.  During the day they're doing a lot of "follow the leader" and mocking each other.  Which is a fun game and really cute until they are following the other one's lead in crying!

I actually wrote my last post last night before bed but it didn't post until this morning.  My internet was down. So let me update on last night.    Last night they both slept sound until 12:30ish.  Elijah woke first and then Everett woke.  Inconsolable. DH took Everett out of the room to get him back to sleep.  I stayed with Elijah.  I didn't get him out of the crib, but talked and did shush pat.  Both boys were back to sleep and in their beds around 1:20.  Elijah woke again at 4:10.  I went in and did shush pat and talked.  Everett woke.  I dealt with both of them bouncing back and forth between both cribs doing shush pat and PD with Everett.  He fell asleep with elijah still fussy.  He woke again before Elijah finally settled to sleep.  I was able to talk to both and shush pat successfully even when both were at their worst, so I guess it's not impossible for them to get back to sleep in the same room and I survived too.  I don't know how long this took because I just curled up on the floor and slept in their room until they woke again at 6:30.  I'm guessing it was over about 5:30.

I use white noise every night, if I didn't they would always wake from each other and household noises.  This morning at its worst, I turned up the volume all the way.  It was pretty loud in there but I think it helped getting them to calm because there were times I couldn't shush loud enough to cover both boys fussing.  Well, I have another crib that I could put upstairs.  It's not ideal so I was trying to give this a go in their room again.  One of the reasons it was so easy to put them in the bed with me was because I had to work some this week.  I'm going to try it a few more days before I give in and move Elijah out again.  Last night gave me a little momentum to keep at it. 

They're both pretty fussy this afternoon so I might have to play it safe and try for a BT around 6:45 since they seem OT already.  Also, since sippy cups were going so well, I took away bottles.  They didn't seem to notice or care, but maybe it could have something to do with it?
     

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2013, 22:00:22 pm »
I don't have time for a full reply, as I'm going out with a friend tonight (and am off to a wedding over the weekend), but I'd even go for 6:30pm BT if it looks like they're ready. I think with the teething and developmental stuff, they might need a chance to catch up on some sleep. But, that being said if they only ever do 11hr nights, I know a 5:30 wake-up is not ideal.

Re: teething. Yes, I do think the few days to a week before the tooth erupts can be the more painful part. Are you giving any meds anymore? You might want to try at BT.

Well done on tackling settling them both in their room in the MOTN! You're a superstar!!  I'd continue to turn up the white noise and give it a try for a few more days. (I'm assuming your DH will be home on the weekend, so you can catch a nap if needed.) (((Hugs))) for falling asleep on the floor... BTDT!

This is a really tough age for developmental stuff and teething, so hang in there. It will get better!



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2013, 13:33:39 pm »
So we took the boys out on my parents boat yesterday and got back just in time for baths and bed at 6:30.  They fought sleep playing and talking to each other for about a half hour.  I was dreading the worst.  I juSt knew it would be another 4:30 wake up again.  Instead, Everett slept sound until 6:30-- just shy of 11 hours!  I hope he's getting back on track.  Elijah woke at 12:15 for his nightly play and I fought with him for an hour.  When Everett started to stir from Elijah's fussing the I took Elijah to my bed.  I didn't intend for him to stay all night, but I failed in that and once he settled down we both slept until 6:30.  I'm definitely doing w2s tonight to see if we can get through that hump.

I didn't do meds since neither have been fussy.  And I really don't believe that's whats getting Elijah up every night.  If they're fussy today I might consider it. 

Today we are back on track for the schedule you suggested the other day.  and I'm hoping naps are better if not then I'll back up BT a bit. 

Hope you had a good time at the wedding.  It's always nice to visit with friends.  Thanks for reading my rambles!



Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2013, 19:05:21 pm »
Let me know how it goes...  :-*



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2013, 20:54:10 pm »
Well we are two days in to completing naps (im capping the last nap at 45-1 hour and it seems to help) and waking at 6:30!  Yeah!  That makes things a bit more bearable in terms of getting through the night.  I did W2S  at 11:15 last night to try getting Elijah through the 12:15 wake.  He didn't wake at 12:15, instead 12:38.  Gggrrr... I actually lifted him from his crib, rubbed his back and whispered in his ear.  Then he settled right back into his crib.  This worked last time, but failed last night.  Not sure if I need to try it differently.  I have left him in the crib before and done it but it didn't work then didn't stir him enough, I guess.  Am I doing something wrong?  It seems like he's hell bent on waking at some point in the night and it doesn't matter when or for how long. 

Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2013, 10:38:16 am »
Didn't make it 3days in a row.  The boys woke at 5:35 this morning, oh well early BT tonight.  On the other hand, Elijah didn't wake at 12:15 instead he woke at 2:17 and was up until 3:20.   :P

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2013, 17:33:56 pm »
(((Hugs))). So now we need to decide if they're waking due do developmental stuff, teething, or needing less daytime sleep.  What do you think?



Offline Beweakley

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2013, 23:31:07 pm »
Oh geez, I don't know anymore.  Everett's got a little tooth barely coming up, and he has taken longer to settle at BT, so I think his issue is teething and a little OT at bedtime.  I just don't know what to do with Elijah anymore.  His NWs have been going on so long and I don't know what's perpetuating them.  I don't think they can handle less daytime sleep; they barely get to 3.5 A time without allying apart.  I think his started as just habit from being fed in the MOTN, but has been complicated by a little teething and developmental stuff at different times.  This morning he was kneeling in his crib-that's the first time he's ever done that.  He's pulling up and standing a lot during the day so I think it could be that more than teething since he doesn't appear to be in any kind of pain.  And I've complicated things over the months by responding inconsistently in the MOTN. 


Let me describe what he does in the MOTN.... It starts with just stirring like he needs to change positions.  And he'll do that and shuffle around a little more and finally progress to some kicking and fussing. Then he'll start talking (I guess to see if anyone answers) and he'll kick around.  After he's done this a while (about a half hour- depending on how awake he is/ also depends on how quick i respond--the quicker i go in the less he wakes) then he'll start to get in his little comfy spot and quiet down like he's nodding off.  That's when the crying and fussing really starts because he's frustrated that he can't get back to sleep.  And he'll fuss and then get quiet. He might even settle down for five minutes or so and I'll think he's asleep or it's over and then he'll let out a cry and start kicking or moving again.  That will continue for another half hour to forty five minutes.  When he's worn out then he'll go back to sleep. I can shush/pat til the cows come home, but he won't drift off until he's ready.  I basically go in for crowd control so that I can keep Everett from waking and making the situation worse.  I stand and shush or every now and then roll him back over or try to move him so that he'll settle down.  When he starts to get frustrated then I'll comfort as needed and I'm usually standing near the crib or sitting on the floor when he finally falls asleep. 

I'll try a different schedule if you think that will help. Hecko, I'll do W2S every hour if that will help, because  I really don't know what else to try anymore.  ???

Offline katie80

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Re: Twins- habitual night waking
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2013, 18:55:09 pm »
Hmm, I don't really know either. :-\. They sure have had a cut in day time sleep over the past few weeks, so it would be hard to think that they are still UT, but it is a possibility.  I think what they're doing right now is a pretty average routine for 10mo, but it can really vary depending on the LO.

The way you describe the NW sounds like it is still either developmental or UT to me (could be discomfort, but that's hard to say if he's not struggling during the day; although, I'm sure if Everett's getting a tooth through, Elijah probably won't be too far behind).  He sure is doing lots of developmental stuff, so I guess we'll go with that and keep working through it.  I would try really hard not to intervene though if he's not crying for you.  I know you don't want Everett to wake and I don't either, but sometimes our intervention in getting things done quicker ends up biting us in the bum later, because they become dependent on it.  My DS woke often at night at this age, and all it took was for me to go in, lie him down, and say my sleepy phrase and he'd be back asleep.  But, he didn't stop waking.  So, finally I made him lie down on his own for a few nights and he finally stopped waking.  Turns out my little cuddle and put down had become a sort of prop. :P