Author Topic: 7 mo old, waking screaming, not going down for bedtime or naps, very OT  (Read 1679 times)

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Offline PNWmamaBear

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It's been a long road to 7 months for us and we've never had good sleep with our Spirited guy.  He's got MSPI/Silent Reflux (15mg of Lansoprazole/day, Probiotics, Slippery Elm)
We've gone through 4 medication switches with his reflux and now we're on the strongest to try and avoid esophagitis since it took so long to get him on any meds. 
So his reflux should be well under control and shouldn't really be an issue in his sleep.   BUT since he has been through so much he has never slept well, 30 min nap wake ups, waking every 45mins etc.....  I've held him for all of his naps in my lap on a pillow for the past few months, naps are very rough.  then I get him past the 30min wake up at BT and put him in his crib, where he wakes up every 45 mins til after midnight, then I get a couple of 2hr/2.5hr stretches out of him til 4 am where it's every 45/1.5 hrs til 7am.  So that is our normal.  but the past few weeks haven't been normal and now it's getting really bad and fast.
a couple of weeks ago we had to switch his reflux meds, he'd only been on the current ones for a couple of weeks, just long enough for them to start to kick in. So the week before we switched I got a few nights where I'd put him down for BT, and he'd ALMOST go to sleep and then just open his eyes and go into hyperactive OT maniac mode and it'd take me 3-4 hours to get him back down. from the first day we switched to his new meds (before it had even a chance to kick in) he did that EVERY NIGHT.  So that lasted 2 weeks, now he's doing it for naps, where he's almost asleep and then he just takes a turn and boom, Maniac Mode.  it's also happening at the 30 min point, where he won't go back down, til his next nap, even if I try to shorten his A time he just keeps going.
Then 3 days ago, he woke up at the 30 min point screaming. then he did it again and again and tonight I got him past the 30 min point (after he skipped his afternoon nap) and then he woke up at 1.5 hours screaming, he's now not going back down again.
he's on a 2.45 min awake time schedule, I was trying to get him to 3 hrs of A time, but he blows right past 2.45 and 3 hrs A time these days.  He also started blowing past catnaps, I'd try for an hour and he'd never go down.
Yesterday I had to go to a Doc appointment in the AM, he slept for 15min out of a 1.5hr car ride, got him home and got him down a couple of hours later for 30 min, woke up with a scream, calmed him down very quickly but he wouldn't go back to sleep so we tried to drive around, got another 15mins out of him 2 hours later and then he was up til 10pm so in 14 hours of awake time, he slept 1 hour.  I've tried nursing him down, walking, singing, shh/pat (which he ignores).  The bedroom is blacked out, white noise, he has a paci and a lovie, oh and me holding his hand when he wants it, letting his head rest on my arm whatever the heck he wants.
If anyone has any ideas I will try whatever I need to get him resting.  I was hoping to start weaning him off of being in my lap for naps (now that he's finally on the right meds and feeling better) but that doesn't appear to be a good option. 

Our schedule is obviously all the heck over the place, but it was:
A 7am (no eating til 30mins after meds)
E  8:30
S 9:45
Awake at 30 min point for 15-30 mins then back down
A 11;30-45
E 12:00 Solids & BF
S 2:15
Awake at 30 min point for 15-30 mins then back down
A 4:15 (no eating til 30mins after meds)
E 5:00
S 7:00
Awake at 7:30 for 30mins
Awake every 45 mins, for quick resettles, Feeding every 3hrs (by demand)
E 1am
E 4am
E 6am




Offline katie80

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Wow, so many (((hugs)))! That sounds completely exhausting. :'(

I'm going to get some extra eyes on this for you, as I think it would be helpful to have some BTDT experience.  Do you think the meds have well and truly kicked in?  It sounds to me like he could still be in discomfort with all the wakings so frequently.  Either that, or he's just got a prop issue from sleeping on your lap. 

What types of things is he eating for solids?  Have you been doing solids for long?  Am just wondering if this could be playing a factor in discomfort now, even though he's on better meds for reflux. 

If you're comfortable that his digestive issues are under control, are you wanting to do some sleep training to get him sleeping more independently?



Offline PNWmamaBear

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Thank you! I think the meds are definitely going. Its been well past the 10days, but we did realize we were giving them to him with water and we were supposed to be using applesauce, so that set us back and they probably haven't been kicked in too long now. But he didn't act like this even when he had no meds so while I don't doubt he's still got discomfort, it hasn't stopped him from going to sleep so much in the past.   He's been eating a better in the morning and sleeping slightly more soundly during his nap, that is all meds for us.
This thing where he's almost asleep and then just sits up and goes straight into hyperactive OT mode and doesn't come down for hours, is totally new.
I'd been waiting to start gradual weaning to independent sleep until he was feeling better, which was supposed to be now, which worked out great since DH is on vacation this week so he's home to bake me support cookies  ;D
But with LO not sleeping at all I haven't even attempted it. I know that's going to be tricky with the 30min wake ups, since he also wakes up 30mins after I get him back down from the first 30min wake up each nap, although the second wake ip is just to look at me and get his paci, I don't know what it'll be like in his crib.
Right now I'm trying to figure out why he's screaming, skipping naps and waking at the 30 and not going back down.
DH thinks the slippery elm was the screaming cause we forgot to give it to him yesterday and he hasn't screamed yet today, thats just crazy cause I couldn't find anyone saying it caused a problem, quite the opposite, but I'm going to back off for now just to make sure.
He wouldn't go down after the 30 this morning, but I got an afternoon nap out of him then he went down easy for BT only to wake after 30mins & although he was acting vert tired couldn't get back down for 1.5hrs. 
We have started solids, over a month ago, so far he's had yams, peas and last night green beans. I was pretty surprised the GI doc recommended peas & green beans. Don't think the green beans went well.

He didn't wake up screaming once yesterday, but did start screaming during the 1.5 hrs he was awake at night.
I figure I need to get him sleeping then get him sleeping in his crib but I don't know what's going on now.
This morning. He passed out exactly 2.45hrs after wake up, while DH was carrying him in the sling ( very unusual!), DH held him thru the first 30, which he says was a small wake up, but then 30mins after that LO woke big time (hungry) so I Fed him but he wouldn't go back down after.
I'm lost as to what to change.

Offline ZacsMumme

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Big hugs honey. I'm really sorry things are so tough for you all ATM.
We had a really rough time at 6-7 months. I think it's a combination of things that caused it

- solids. We were giving too much, and T couldn't tolerate almost anything as his tummy was in a bad way. It needed to heal before solids. So, what solids are you giving, and how much and how often?

- teething? - does he seem to be teething? Do pain meds help at all.

- developmental. We had crazy sitting in the cot when trying to crawl ::) and long Nw as a result. Is he sitting? Is he Crawling yet?

- reflux and colic. (Wind/gas) how are poops? - constipated? Any gas? Wind issues still? Can you smell acid breath at all or on spit up?

- props. We can't fix these till the pain is gone. I suspect it's not all gone. You can work on him putting the paci in himself though. Practice during A time. Encourage him to do it at night ie put in his hand. You can get glowing ones and put lots in the cot. We have these for T http://www.babyearth.com/mam-night-glow-in-the-dark-pacifiers-2-pack.html my other LO has the avent ones.

Sorry for the questions and novel. I really think this all makes a diffence to how adm when you can sleep train though Hun. Plus he will still nap bed and wake if these things aren't sorted.

I do think he needs an A increase too, but lets cover that next reply! :-*
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline PNWmamaBear

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Hey Sara!  Dang it, I thought he was going to be feeling so good!  I kept thinking this is new, must be a regular baby thing.  The whole almost asleep and then wide awake thing is killing us.  When he was doing bad I could still usually get him to go down, couldn't get him to stay there, now I can't do either.

Solids:  we've tried yams, peas and green beans.  Peas & green beans have been recent, green beans last night, and he was acting really uncomfortable at the 30min wake up last night, that kept him up for 1.5hrs.  He was writhing and moaning and grunting and then I realized with DH home this week I hadn't been changing all the diapers, so I didn't think about it, but I asked DH and LO hasn't pooed since day before yesterday in the morning, which is the longest he's ever gone.  So DH doesn't want to give him anymore green beans, and we switched back to yams this morning.
He gets 1/2tsp applesauce with his meds twice a day.  Then 1-1/5 tablespoons yams or peas in the mid morning and in the late evening.  I mix the probiotics in the the a.m. solids and the 1/4teaspoon slippery elm with the evening solids. I found somewhere that we can give him 3/4tsp slippery elm 3x/day, but i don't how I would ever get that much into him!  So I've just been doing 1/4 tsp once a day.

Teething: He's not been teething at all yet, I keep checking his gums, no redness, no elevated temp, no runny nose.  His dad didn't get teeth until 8 months, so Bear probably will follow his dad, maybe I just think that way because they look exactly the same.

Developmental: He is definitely sitting, he's got that down. crawling, not so much.  Not really trying too much yet.  With his crib mattress being elevated, when he tries to sit he usually ends up at the bottom. In fact I think he has a hard time with the crib in general because he was in the sleeper thing until about a month ago and he still naps with me so he's not to used to moving around in there and the sloped mattress probably doesn't make it much easier for him.  I'd love to be able to set him down for naps, even if I hold him past the first 30, but he keeps fussing and waking for his paci and grabbing me every 15-20mins the rest of the nap. :(

Reflux: sooo, he doesn't burp when I try to officially burp him anymore, he gets rather annoyed with me trying so I try to be sneaky and sit him up and push up his knees a bit, I usually get some little burps.  Since the Lansoprazole has kicked in more he's eating a little smoother so he's not giving those big wet burps as much.  I do think he's constipated at the moment, Dh is going to get some pears tomorrow since those are supposed to help, but I do worry about the acidity of them.  Also we stopped the slippery elm for a couple of days, but I convinced DH that wasn't the source of the problem and gave him some this afternoon, since that's also supposed to help.  His breath does still have a bit of acridness too it.

Props: You're brilliant!  I will definitely try that paci during A time.  His crib bars are big enough that the paci falls through easily, which really sucks.  I keep 5 pacis next to his crib at night and end up giving him a new one every time, he's put it in himself when he's awake a few times, my sister sent us one of the Avent ones that's got teether handles so he learned on that a bit I think.  I'm definitely his biggest prop.  Of course if he slept better once he was actually asleep that'd be a lot easier.

I was trying to get him to 3hr A time, he just had a 4hr one cause he wouldn't go down, which happens quite often these past few days. When he falls asleep on his own, like in the car, it's almost to the minute 2.45 right now, but that's only happened a couple of times.  I feel like we're half way between 2.45-3hr A time so we're going to move towards 3hr.  With the almost asleep, then sitting up and awake thing I'm pretty scared about his sleep window, but since it doesn't seem to matter whether I get him through wind down on time or early or late I guess I shouldn't worry too much. 

Offline ZacsMumme

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Ill be back tonight but what about something like this for the cot? I swear by them, one of our best purchases ever!  Both my boys have used ours (just moved it to Ts cot from Z)
http://www.thesleepstore.co.nz/shop/toolbox/safe-sleep/cot-bumpers/airwrap-deluxe-airwrap--4-sides--bumper
Safe, breathable, padded and keeps the pacis IN!

Z has avent and the glow ones work well. I'd chuck all 4/5 in the cot and encourage him to PU at NW, or at this age I put into Ts hand and guided it to his mouth. Does he have a lovey? Encourage this as much as you can too.
***Sara***
https://www.facebook.com/tomiandroo


DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline katie80

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Great advice from Sara, as always.  I had actually noticed the A time too and thought it could use a bump toward 3hr.  Yes, he's not getting restorative sleep and is tired, but 3hr is really very average for his age and it could be that he's blowing past the 2h45-3hr right now, because you're actually trying a bit too early. You may want to work on just one thing at a time, because he does have a lot going on, but I do think a better A time might help a bit.  (((Hugs)))



Offline ZacsMumme

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Im back!
try maybe offering the solids at  breakfast and lunch, rather than in the evening so the tummy has a rest before BT. A lot of foods disagreed with T but pumpkin/squash was gentle and safe, you could maybe try that next? You can mix pear into pumpkin too, make sure it's ripe. Chicken broth is really good for the gut too, pm me if you want some info on how to make it, or other foods that are really safe for MSPI kids with tummy issues. I just mix slippery elm into the solids. It seems to work like a thickener too so good with runny solids. I doubt SE would cause issues ... But these kids it could be anything!

Constipation can be a sign the digestive system isn't coping well with the food. Definitely cut the beans, maybe even try starting over with yams and ditch the peas for 3 days and see if it helps. How much milk is he drinking in 24?

So with sleep, during this developmental period of sitting in the cot, or trying to crawl in it ( ::) ) it's really hard with a baby in discomfort because it's not as simple as just lying them down. Like Katie says, that increased A may help with him being more tired to sleep more soundly at night. Lots of A time practice helps too, ware him out!
SO...
For now I'd be inclined to have another talk with the dr about the reflux with the acid still present on his breath, but I suspect it's more digestive issues causing  all the NW though. :-\
I'd definitely increase A to 3 hrs, and try to resettle naps like you are. Can you just APOP the nap after 30 mins if he will let you for 1 a day? I found the first nap the easiest to resettle.
Will he go in the cot at all drowsy? - or only asleep?
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline PNWmamaBear

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Ok, Solids at Breakfast & Lunch sounds like a good plan.  We got pears today, they weren't very ripe because it's totally out of season, so I steamed them and put them through the food mill, mixed them with some slippery elm.  Didn't help, he hasn't pooed in over 3 days now, before this he's never gone a day without, so he's not feeling good. 
Pumpkin/Squash is out of season too  :( but DH said he say some frozen butternut squash at the store so we'll get that tomorrow.  We've gone back to just yams for the past couple of days. 
He's awake now (9pm) got a 30min nap out of him this afternoon, after a 3hr A.  He woke up at the 30, I tried to nurse him down, he ate and was wired, straight into hyperactive mode for the next 4 hours, (tried to get him back down every hour) finally got him back down and past the first 30 but the second 30 didn't go so well and now 2hrs later he's still up.

We've been having to walk him down the past couple of days, which hasn't worked in the past couple of months but now seems to be the only thing that helps get him down, although it doesn't work unless he's ready. I've been able to get one good nap out of him per day, helping him along with paci and he grabs my arm like it's a life preserver randomly throughout the nap.

I've been trying to set him down drowsy, he'll pop his eyes open and start grabbing my hair before I've even got my arm out from under his head, then he's wired. It's craziness, he never gets that sleepy look, or even milk drunk, he is either asleep or awake.  Doesn't totally help that I have to keep the room so dark I can barely see the outline of the furniture these days. so I don't always know if he's asleep until it's been a while.

His A times are pretty active, jumperoo, walks, mat time, he has a little yoga ball he rolls around on. He's crazy physical.  I tried pushing it up a notch a couple of months ago to disastrous results, wouldn't sleep at all.  But ya know he's bigger now, think I'll try again.
 

Offline katie80

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(((Hugs))) hon, it sounds like he is struggling with some discomfort. I hope his digestive system gets back on track soon. Poor little guy! :'(