This is Hell. 6 mo EW

[afranklin]

Hi dears,
I think my 6 mo old is chronically OT. There are probably many factors, but the OT is the main one I suspect. The EW and nap resistance is driving me crazy.

The EASY that made it seem like everything was getting better:
After an 11 hour night, which has been his usual in the past:
Awake: 6am (his usual)
E: 7am
A: 6-7:55
S: 7:55-8:25 (OT nap)
E: 10:25am
A: 8:25-11:25
S: 11:25-12:30 (amazing!! He NEVER sleeps this long for a nap, wracking my brain to figure out how to make it happen more often)
E: 1:45
A: 12:30-2:30
S: 2:30-3:08 (normal nap)
A: 3:08-5
S: 5-5:30 (catnap)
E: 6pm
A: 5:30-7:35
S: 7:35pm-6:10am (with a dream feed)(there was a short night waking- 10 min, which is an improvement over the hour long NW of last week)
That's a little over 2.5 hours day sleep.

He has always been a short napper, 40-50 min is what seems normal.

But the next day:
Night sleep was around 10.5
Awake: 6:10 (yay)
E: 7
A: 6:10-8:35
S: 8:35-9:05 (OT nap)
E: 9:40
A: 9:05-11:51
S: 11:51-12:20 (OT nap)
E: 12:30
A: 12:20-12:55
S: 12:55-1:30 (?)
A: 1:30-2:46
S: 2:46-3:25 (normal nap)
E: 3:30
A: 3:25-6:05
S: 6:05-7:08 (Early BT)
E: 7:15
S: 7:20-5:20am (made for an 11 hour night, starting at 6:05)
Day sleep= 2 hours 10 min

He has woken up at 5:20/5:30 the past 2 days.

I know he's all over the place. For many of the naps when I think he's OT, I am trying to put him down earlier than when he actually goes to sleep. I'm trying several times. I'm doing my best to manage short naps, OT, longer A times, dropping the catnap, teething(?), reading the difficult to read tired signs, recent disruption with travel and a visitor, etc.... He can do a 4 hour feeding schedule, but I am really really focusing on the sleep right now. So if I suspect he will get tired right around feeding time I will feed 30 min to hour early, so that if I get him to sleep I know he won't wake up for hunger.

I'm thinking it's all of that thrown together... a combination of frequent OT AND needing more A time... and I just can't find the right balance. I can't tell if he needs successively shorter A times throughout the day, or longer ones. Or the same A time. I'm BEYOND frustrated.

How do I figure all this out!!? I don't know whether to work hard (APOP) getting him more sleep, or just forget it and do PU/PD by the book in hopes the OT irons itself out eventually. On the one hand he might need to drop a nap, on the other hand I think he's OT from the EW.

Thank you for reading... I appreciate any thoughts.

Amanda

[PaulsMom]

Hugs for the ew's.  sleep at thus age can get tricky.  I think the big thing is that the CN needs to be dropped.  Here's some info
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

To do this, I would try to even out your A times so that he's up for around 2.25 to 2.5 hrs.  Try to stick with these As for several days.  I think your Lo should be able to handle it because he does stay up for longer than this some times. 

Wrt short napping, does he wake up crying?  Can you try to extend a nap?  For a while my dd short napped.  It was likely developmental.  I would try to extend her first nap with shhh-tummy rub but if that didn't work, I'd APOP the next nap (usually meant a car seat nap).  This reduced the amount of OT.  Perhaps something like that may be do-able.  Also, you can try early bt. 

[afranklin]

Thank you, yes I'll be working on extending those A times. Hopefully that will work!

[PaulsMom]

ok, keep us posted on how things go over the next few days.

[afranklin]

Hi,
So extending A times, or at least waiting until he's definitely absolutely tired, is working well today. He took an hour nap today which just never happens. I was afraid he was OT b/c he was eye-rubbing, but apparently it was just right. Last night he was up for almost two hours though, having a cot party (even though he only had 2 hours of day sleep).

As A time lengthens, does that mean the total sleep needs are decreasing, too? He seems to be going for around 13 hours in 24, and he used to be 14. He's never ever slept 12 hours at a stretch at night. It's always 11 (and lately 10). I'm wondering if attempting a later bedtime (it's been around 6:30) will help. I know the fact is that early BT means sleeping *later* and STTN for most, but if I've been overcompensating and he's having a cot party at night, maybe he should be up later? Which might necessitate 3 naps (or so), I think... but I'll be so so happy to get rid of the NW and EW, if I can, and work on dropping naps later.

Thanks so much for your thoughts, I really appreciate you guys.
Amanda

EASY from yesterday:
Up at 3:40am
Down-ish 4:50-7am (around 11.5 total night sleep)
E: 7:10
A: 7-9:11
S: 9:11-9:43
E: 10:40
A: 9:43-11:50
S: 11:50-12:25
E: 2
A: 12:25-3:27
S: 3:27-4:30 (Woke up crying)
E: 5:20
A:4:30-6:30
Day sleep=2 hours

S: 6:30-2:08am this morning. (with a dream feed)
E: 2:45 (wasn't sure if he was hungry, perhaps growth spurt. Just wanted to check)
A: 2:08-3:40 (a couple of times he was down for a minute or two, then popped up)
S: 3:40-4:14
A: 4:14-4:25
S: 4:25-6:15
Last night: around 10 hours

[PaulsMom]

I'm glad his nap was better with a longer A.  I've found that sometimes the eye rubbing could be a sign of being bored rather than tired.  As they get older, some the sleepy signs get a bit more muddled. 

The total amount of sleep needed will start to decrease.  the average 6 -8 mo old will have 2 naps of 1-2 hrs and 10-12 hrs night time sleep.  Some bubs that have low sleep needs may be getting less.

WRT to the cot party, I think he may need more awake time during the day and two naps rather than going with a schedule that would be appropriate for a younger baby.  I would bump out the A just a bit more and hold for several days to let him adjust and see where we are at. 

WRT to BT, likely a BT between 6:30 and 7:30 would be alright depending on his naps.  I wouldn't do a later bt if you need a 3rd nap though.  In cases like this, I'd maintain BT or do an early BT depending on how the naps were. 

[katie80]

Hi Amanda, just jumping on this thread as your other one was locked.  I do agree with PaulsMom on the A times as you know and am here to answer any PUPD questions you have or just give my support.  Hope you're seeing more progress!

[MammaB35]

This thread has been really helpful to me too! Just wanted to let you guys know I've been struggling with similar issues as afranklin with my 5.5 month old. I'll be monitoring her A times closely for the next few days!

[katie80]

Hi MammaB, glad you found this thread helpful. Please feel free to start your own either here on the NW board or somewhere else (General Sleep or EASY, perhaps), if you'd like more specific help!

How are things going for you, Amanda?

[afranklin]

Hi Katie and everyone,
Thanks for checking in! Last night was amazing (8pm ish-5:45), no NW and I don't think it was an EW, even tho it was early. But I've no idea how to repeat that. I'm not having any luck figuring out his A time at all.

Yesterday, which I suppose laid the foundation for a great night, included 2:50 day sleep, which he hasn't been able to get in a while.
The wake/sleep times were:
A: 2:20
S: 1:20 (Amazing!)
A: 2:20
S: 30 (assuming OT. I think he collapsed asleep on me instantly during routine)
A: :45
S: 30 up/down a bit
A: 2:30
S: 30
A: 2:30
BT: 8pm

So, not a great day really, but I think the total day sleep really helped his night sleeping.

I haven't been able to get consistent A times, b/c the time it takes for me to put him down varies. But even if I try the same A time, his naps will be different lengths. Not just in the day, as you see here, but for the first nap across different days, too. With the same amt of night sleep. Example: 10 hr night, 2:30 A, 30 S.  And then: 10 hr night, 2:30 A, 1:20 S.

I'm quite discouraged. Extending his A time sometimes helps, sometimes just creates OT. I tried for the same A time as yesterday this morning (2:20), and he ended up asleep at 2:30 and I got a 35 min nap. It doesn't make any sense. Yesterday 2:20 was perfect for the first nap, today a little longer A gave me a 35 min nap. He usu wakes up from the short naps happy, so I just don't know if it's UT or OT.

*Does anyone find that a 30 min nap with no crying on waking can still be OT? I've been assuming a 30 min on the dot nap is OT, but now I wonder.

I'm considering BTC napping... is it too young to start this? There's a schedule floating around out there that I was interested in trying: Sleeps from 7WU, 9-9:45, 12:30-2:30, 4:30-5 catnap, 7/7:30 BT. The thing about BTC napping is people say 'wake your baby up' at such and such time. Well, I never get that chance. Not in the morning, even. He never ever sleeps past 7.  So maybe it wouldn't work for him. Thought I suppose I could wake him up at 6. He usually sleeps a little beyond 6. But with Daylight Savings coming up.. I'm trying to get him to sleep later, not earlier.

I know he's supposed to be going down to two naps now-ish, but I just can't even get a consistent 3.   I'm kind of giving up, that's why the BTC sounds like something to try.

Amanda

[katie80]

(((Hugs))) hon, I can understand your frustration.  I've been there. 

It looks to me like the A time is still not high enough.  That's why you're getting inconsistent results. Most of the time he's UT on that time (ESP at the beginning of the day), but every so often he gets tired enough to take a full nap, which is confusing.  He's still doing an A time that's more appropriate for a late 5mo old, and I'm guessing he's close to 7mo now.  You need to keep pushing them to get to 2h45-3hr.

*Does anyone find that a 30 min nap with no crying on waking can still be OT? I've been assuming a 30 min on the dot nap is OT, but now I wonder.

I think it can be either and definitely 35min ones can be UT.  My thought is that any waking during the sleep cycle can be either OT or UT and you have to take into account the surrounding context... so the A time before-hand, how he wakes, etc etc.  I do think a lot of yours start out UT, but end up OT by the end of the day becuase the A is catching up with him since he hasn't had a full nap.

WRT BTC napping, it can help LOs sort of reset themselves and regulate their body clock.  However, we typically advise it only as a last resort and base it on average A times first.  Since you haven't reached average A times yet, I'd say to work toward that first and if you're still not getting naps, then start to think about BTC.  I did a routine similar to what you have written with my DS from about 6-8mo, because I just couldn't get him to take a long first nap.  It does run its course pretty quick though, because by 8mo, to do three naps is a bit too much, even if two of them are short.

I know he's supposed to be going down to two naps now-ish, but I just can't even get a consistent 3.   I'm kind of giving up, that's why the BTC sounds like something to try.

Yes, I think this is an issue too.  The A times aren't long enough to get two full naps, and he ends up having too many CNs, which although led to a full night the other night, it was still a short one.  Keep pushing him, I know it's not easy, but everything points to it.

[afranklin]

Thank you so much. All of that makes sense. I definitely agree that I need to increase his A time.

This is what I did today that gives me hope. I figured out how to get out of the OT hole, I think. I'm hoping once he's out of the hole and the UT/OT loop, I'll be able to figure out his A.

After a short night (around 9 hours, WU at 5:45), I started the BT routine at around 1:30 A time, after each nap, until his naps lengthened.

WU 5:45a (DH tried to resettle with no luck)
A: 1:45
S: 7:30-8a
A: 1:40
S: 9:40-10:10a
A: 1:30ish
S: 11:40a ish (couldn't see the clock)-1:24p

And I saw for certain that the tired signs are unreliable. Today I decided to really focus on the signs, not the clock at all. And about an hour after the long sleep he shook his head and yawned, but when I did the routine it was different behavior than the other naps. Whiny, not settling (or crying). Not that I really expected him to be tired already after a long long nap!

I'm keeping at it!! I can't thank you enough for your help.
Amanda

[katie80]

This is what I did today that gives me hope. I figured out how to get out of the OT hole, I think. I'm hoping once he's out of the hole and the UT/OT loop, I'll be able to figure out his A.

Just to be sure we're clear... you're not planning on repeating the day you had today to help get him out of the hole, right? I'm afraid that several days in a row like that would not make it better and eventually wreak havoc on your nights (so little A time and lots of CNs throughout the day with one longer nap... I think the cycle will just continue). The best way to get out of the UT/OT loop is to push him toward an age-appropriate A time first thing in the morning and start out with a good nap that can lead to another good A time and nap in the afternoon.

It is good to just try something like you did today though and only go on cues, so you can see what's reliable and what's not. Keep working at it and you will get there!

[afranklin]

Hi,
Absolutely. I understand that it could have been/could be (if continued) a series of UT 30 min naps -OR- OT 30 min naps, followed by a long catch up nap. Not my ideal at all!

I think I'm finally getting somewhere!!!

For a few days after that EASY, I focused on the tired cues. I needed *something* to go on, more than shooting in the dark, since everything has been so all over the place and incomprehensible (I would try increasing A times- maybe too much, I don't know- and get OT). Looking at the cues, I finally got a 45 min first nap, which at least I *know* that's UT. So I finally got a place to *start.*

Today's EASY, so far:
10 hr night with ZERO WU or EW.
A: 1:55
S: 50 (yesterday a 1:40 A time yielded a 1:10 nap)

A: 2:13
S: 1:20 (woo-hoo!)

A: 2:20
S: 37 (obviously needed longer A. He woke up at the awkward time of 3:17p and will have to go to bed before seven, which usu. leads to a cot party some time in the night)

So now I'm figuring out that once I see the cues, I don't have to rush him to bed ASAP. But the cues mean the sleep window is opening... and then just to be confusing, there are random yawns and eye rubs after an hour (or some other 'it can't be so' time) of awake time. I ignore those (and I look into his eyes. Bright? Smiling back? Not tired!). Now that I have some A times that don't just yield an OT or UT mess and a structure is forming, I'm combining cues and stretching A times in very...small...increments. He does seem to like having gradually increasing A times, I've noticed that.

Grand {sigh} of relief. It's getting better.

And I realized: I don't have to be perfect. I forget that sometimes. I can get so so bent out of shape when I get a 30 min nap. I have to remember: He's healthy. I'm not getting enough sleep, but I'm not PPD and exhausted. I have tools, knowledge, resources. A husband to help me. And tomorrow is a new day, with no mistakes in it.

Amanda

[PaulsMom]

And I realized: I don't have to be perfect. I forget that sometimes. I can get so so bent out of shape when I get a 30 min nap. I have to remember: He's healthy. I'm not getting enough sleep, but I'm not PPD and exhausted. I have tools, knowledge, resources. A husband to help me. And tomorrow is a new day, with no mistakes in it.

^^this...  You are absolutely correct!  Enjoy your DS.  As frustrating as short naps, OT/ut, etc can be, babies are only babies for a short while.

[katie80]

And I realized: I don't have to be perfect. I forget that sometimes. I can get so so bent out of shape when I get a 30 min nap. I have to remember: He's healthy. I'm not getting enough sleep, but I'm not PPD and exhausted. I have tools, knowledge, resources. A husband to help me. And tomorrow is a new day, with no mistakes in it.

^^this...  You are absolutely correct!  Enjoy your DS.  As frustrating as short naps, OT/ut, etc can be, babies are only babies for a short while.

Agreed! It sounds like you've got a really good pspective on it and are definitely making progress.  Keep up the good work.

[afranklin]

What a Day!!!!

Yesterday 3:10 hours of day sleep.
11hr night, minus an hour NW
Wake: 6:20
S: 8:30-9, then I left him alone for 20 min and he slept for an hour more! 9:25-10:20
S: 12:30-2:15
S: 4:30-5

Wow. A good reminder to not rush in!
I was following tired signs, and waiting a few minutes. Not rushing him to bed at the first yawn. And clearly he wasn't OT or UT for once!!

This was so different, I wasn't sure what to do. Unfortunately it's a lot of day sleep for him, and I think there will be a big cot party tonight. I wasn't sure when and which naps to cut off, or out or whatever. Dropping the catnap would have led to a BT of 5:15 at best, I think, or OT. I wonder if I just have to live with NW until he can stay up longer. I'd much rather that than OT.

It's strange, his sleep needs (usu.) look more like one of the 8 or 9 mo old sample EASYs. But his A time doesn't match... so it makes things rather difficult. He seems to need 10 hrs/night, 3 hrs in the day. But the 'nap math' doesn't work out very well since he can't stay up longer, so far.

I will try for a 2:15 or 2:20 A tomorrow...

[katie80]

I think he probably can stay up for longer if you push him gradually.  Once you get them pushed a bit, then it should be easier to drop the CN. I think the reason his times don't add up is that the day sleep is taking away from the night sleep and they're not even.  You'll get there... I think this is a common issue at this age, with the CN dropping, but once his A times even out a bit, it should work.

[afranklin]

A victory lap!

Like I said, I'm SO anxious and fearful re: OTness. I have this idea that once he has a short nap, there's a domino effect that takes days to recover from, and he won't catch up on the sleep he needs unless I work (and worry, 'cause that does something, right?) really hard and APOP.

Well, yesterday helped me relax a little about that. He had a short night (9:20) and not much napping (2:37), so less than 12 hours in the 24 hour period. At 7 mos that's a bit on the low end I think, and lower than his usual for sure. I put him to bed fully expecting an AWFUL night. And it wasn't. Yes, there were four WU, which I think were OT WUs, but he went right back to it with some comforting (no long cot parties or 5:30 EW!). And this morning he woke up around 6:20 and did that quiet babbling thing, and went back to sleep for another cycle. He slept about 11.5 hours! So he was OT from yesterday, but not too OT to get caught up last night. What a relief.

And this morning? For the first nap he was not going down, just partying in there. He ended up not falling asleep until he'd been awake for 3 hours. And he's still sleeping... past the 30 min mark, past the 45 min mark.

Yay.

You guys are right, right, right. My intention has been to push out his A gradually, but hey. Whatever works.
Amanda

[katie80]

Yes, it's really common to be afraid of OT.  I know I was big time.  But, then you have a day and night like you did and realize that it isn't the worst thing in the world and actually, I've seen UT be just as big of a problem on the baords as OT.  I'm rarely afraid of OT with my DS, because I know that he will work his way out of it and I really don't even have to do much to help him (my DD was touchy with sleep and needed way more help to get out of OT ).

And sometimes, LOs do need a big jump in A times.  Some like to go by 10-15min, some by 15-20. It sounds like he was defintiely ready after that nice, long night! 

Keep up the good work!