Is teething causing these problems. I am exhausted

[Clairehv]

Hi,
I am not sure how much background to give... But I will try and give some background and then write the current issue.
Have followed EASY with exception of DF since 8 weeks old. DD STTN from 12wk old to 20 week old then began waking once a night. I offered bottle.
Have weaned since 24 weeks and she is on 3 solid good meals a day. Her wakings began getting erratic at 8.5 months we dropped catnap so now have an am nap of around 1.5 hrs and a pm nap of around 1.5 hours.
Some nights she would sleep through for 12 hours, others she was up twice.  I began watering formula down and reducing volume to try and wean NF but was advised that cold turkey may be quicker and easier. Also about 2 nights a week she would sleep through so we know she can
So two weeks ago we decided that enough was enough and we would ST.
Typically the first night I had prepared to tackle she slept until 6am.
So next night she woke at 4am. It took me until 5.30am but she settled and went back to sleep until 6.45am.
We then had 5 nights of her STTN to at least 6 am or waking but settling quickly without PU.

All hell broke loose 5 nights ago. Very whiny on Thursday afternoon, took 40 mins to settle at BT (very unusual) then woke twice with a what I would describe as pain cry.

Friday night she woke every hour from 10pm-5am. She won't let me get my finger with gel on or a syringe with meds anywhere near her at night. I am convinced its teeth because she is chewing her bunny blanket constantly and her thumb,
Saturday night moaned in sleep from 8.30 pm until 10pm when it escalated and she woke crying.. Calmed and she went back to sleep until 11pm. She was awake until 1am and held down and got some meds in and then calmed to sleep Crying at 4 am and 5am which were a mantra cry so didn't pick up and she clearly wanted to be asleep.
Sunday night we were up from 2am-4am. I try to calm, cuddle, bring into bed with me,
Same on Monday night.
Last night she woke at 4.30am and I was just so tired I gave a bottle. She resettled until 6am.

I am so tired, but I know offering bottle is not really the solution and also makes the night of ST worthless.

It has also been very hot here and in addition she has a very runny nose.

I feel that at night I don't have very good coping strategies and I just wanted some advice on whether teething can cause this much bother over consecutive nights and how I should try and manage it.

She also has had short A times today as she is just exhausted.

Let me know if I need to type out our EASY.

She is 9.5 months and has 8 teeth already but have not had this issue before really.
I have been to  Drs and there is no ear or throat infection.

Thank you for your help I am at the end of my tether
X

[michaeljacknnugg]

It does sound like teething to me as she is suddenly so unsettled, chewing everything etc. If she already has 8 teeth it is either molars or eye teeth, either of which cause havoc (or did for us).

Can you medicate before bed and see what happens? Can you do a dream med?

For us, teething was one of the things we had to just make it through - we resorted to all sorts! So personally I wouldn't advise sleep training during teething.

[Clairehv]

Hi,
We give teething powders and ibuprofen/paracetamol based meds before bed.

How do you do dream meds?

Last night she woke at 10.30 I offered bottle and she did 150ml she woke again at 3.15 I offered bottle. She calmed and went to sleep but when I checked she had only drunk 30ml, but if chewing on the teat calms her so be it.
I thought about mixing the meds in the bottle but its quite sticky isn't it so I am not sure that would work?

How will I know when the waking is habit rather than teething as I am worried she'll get into the habit of waking for a bottle again

Thanks

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs! I find when they're miserable you just have to 'ride it out' sometimes and re ST if it comes to it. I 'think' it should be easier than the first time because they have to skills now, they just forget

It 'could' also be a sleep regression?

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), those NWs sounds tough!

It does sound like teething to me as she is suddenly so unsettled, chewing everything etc. If she already has 8 teeth it is either molars or eye teeth, either of which cause havoc (or did for us).

This was my first thought as well.  Although she is on the younger side, I've had a couple friends with LOs who have all their molars by 1yr, so it definitely could be that.

The other thing I notice is that you've mentioned it's fairly hot.  That can also cause issues with LOs sleep when they aren't used to it, but I do think this seems more like teetng discomfort.  Could she be taking a full bottle at 10:30ish because she's actually thirsty from being hot all day?

It 'could' also be a sleep regression?

I did wonder this too, though.  You started with ST and then after 5-7 nights the problems started.  This is classic for the regression period after ST.  At that point, we'd advise you to keep doing things as you are and remain consistent, so as not to reinforce the old prop.  The difficult part is, if you truly believe it's something else, you don't want to push her through it.  Does your gut say it's teething?

How do you do dream meds?

Dream meds are given like a dream feed... so you go 6hr or so after BT (when the BT meds will have worn off) and give her another dose, by just sticking the syringe in the side of her mouth and squirting it in.  She may stir and swallow it, but hopefully not fully wake.

How will I know when the waking is habit rather than teething as I am worried she'll get into the habit of waking for a bottle again

You'll have to look at her overall behavior throughout the day and go with what you think is best.  If she doesn't need the feed, then even if she's waking in discomfort, I'd try to comfort her in another way and get her back to sleep rather than feeding.  Otherwise, you are much more likely to come out of it with a bottle prop.

[Clairehv]

Thank you ZM and Katie.
I was pretty convinced that Friday - Monday the hideous nights were down to teething. She wasn't herself and very cry'y and clingy during the day as well and always wanted something in mouth.

As you say it is confusing whether to try and re sleep train when I am not confident she is 100%.
I resorted to bottle quickly last night as I am just so exhausted I needed some sleep. I can tell I am getting ill myself.

Apologies here as I don't know how to do a quote,
But with regards to thirst, I offer water during the day she probably drinks at least 5oz water in day. Is that enough?
If it is thirst should I just offer water at night first before resorting to milk. ?

I am happy to re sleep train, I have 8 weeks before I go back to work and ideally don't want NW to be a regular occurance.

I think I will keep a diary for the next few days and then come back and see if we can get a strategy (other than putting her up for adoption !:) only kidding ) together

Thanks all. I know lots of people's babies wake but at the moment none of my immediate peers are experiencing any problems x

[katie80]

But with regards to thirst, I offer water during the day she probably drinks at least 5oz water in day. Is that enough?
If it is thirst should I just offer water at night first before resorting to milk. ?

She probably is getting enough.  You could try to offer water at night before milk, but if she refuses the water and then takes the milk you're likely reinforcing that prop.

I think I will keep a diary for the next few days and then come back and see if we can get a strategy (other than putting her up for adoption !:) only kidding ) together

Sounds like a good plan.  It would be helpful for us to see your EAS routine for those days too, to make sure there isn't a tweak to be made.

I know lots of people's babies wake but at the moment none of my immediate peers are experiencing any problems x

Just have a look around the boards, hon, you'll find them. I promise you are not alone!

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs!
Also, remember not all people tell the whole truth I have 1 friend who said her LO never short napped or NW then. Year later she went on a out his 30 min naps and NW and another who considers 12-5 STTN, well in that case T does it 99% of the time x

[Beweakley]

Claire, I can definitely tell you that you're not the only mom going through this! My twins are teething and experiencing similar issues with runny noses, clingy, crying, little messes! They've both taken turns this week crying every hour through the night and requiring me to hold them just to get some sleep (one night i had to hold both of them). In the MOTN it's hard not to give in to their every whim because your exhausted and everyone needs sleep.  I can definitely attest to that! I'm a zombie on these nights and days and there's not much that gets done around the house. 

And Zacsmumme makes a good point. I've had several friends that will say their LOs STTN, but only to find out that they're going to bed at 10:30 or they're co-sleeping with them all the time, or they get up at 5:00.  For me, STTN means everyone sleeps in their own bed for 10+ hours.  We're not there yet (at least not with both of my boys) but I'm hopeful every night!  And if it makes you feel better, Elijah has only STTN four times since he was born and they just turned ten months old today. 

[Clairehv]

Hi,
Thank you, it's reassuring to know that we haven't done anything wrong and we are not the only ones.

And at least I only have 1 baby going through it! Wow twins must be amazingly lovely but tough as well.
Thanks for the words of encouragement beweakley.

Maybe slightly better last night but she could have been crying for ages! I was dreaming she was crying and then woke and she was hysterical! I could barely get out of bed with tiredness.
Anyway we were up between 12-1am. She had 40ml milk then settled then 20 mins later crying again. Just gave bottle again, she chewed it for a few mins then went back to sleep.

Cried at 5am which I ignored and then woke at 6.15am.

So good that she didn't really want the milk ( bad that I offered! ) she refused any meds but hopefully we are over the worst of the teething for this week. We have friends with their own children up this weekend and she is going to have to be in our room. I will just have to ride it out this weekend and then ST again next week.
Waiting for the amber necklace that I ordered in desperation to arrive x x

[katie80]

Hope the weekend goes well and that you are through the worst of the NWs. (((Hugs)))

[Clairehv]

Just a quickie! Arrgh. Up from 2-4am again then 5am.

We have our guests this weekend so can't do anything as she is in our room.
Will update on Monday x

[katie80]

Oh (((hugs))), I'm sorry hon.

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs. I just had a thought, could it be sa? What is she like at the long NW? X

[Clairehv]

Hi,
So the NW seems to be taking the pattern that if she wakes up she's awake for two hours!

When she wakes she is really crying and won't calm down for a while. Once calm or appearing tired, really cries upon being put down.
We had guests this weekend and DD was in same room as us so to try and preserve the household sleep I offered bottle and also tried to calm by bringing into our bed. She just fights me, crawls around bed etc.
our EASY has been a bit off due to guests plus it has been 30 degrees here.

Friday's EASY.
WU 6.20am
7am bottle
8 am breakfast
S 9am-10.30am
E 12 solids
S 1.20-3pm
E 4.30pm solids
Start bath time 6.30
Bottle
BT 7pm. Settled well
NW- woke crying loudly 2am- asleep 4am
NW 5am- gave bottle due to guests.
Slept until 7.15am

Saturday.
WU 7.15am
Refused bottle (due to 5am feed)
E 8am solids
S in pram 10-10.40 am
E 12 solids
A
S in pram 1.30-2pm
A
S fell asleep in car 4.30-5pm
E 5.15 solids
7pm started bath time.
Bottle.
Putting into travel cot 7.30pm
Took until 9pm to get to sleep. Very very unusual. ( maybe too hot, managed to get to sleep in just nappy by rocking in front of fan.

NW 5am, took until 6.20 to get back to sleep. Would not take bottle.

Sunday WU 7.00 am.

So a difficult weekend due to guests, heat and lack of structured naps but this NW has been going on for 9 nights now.

How do I know if its separation anxiety and what do we do to address it please

[katie80]

So a difficult weekend due to guests, heat and lack of structured naps but this NW has been going on for 9 nights now. 

Yes, it's hard to tell from those EASs if there may be a routine issue. I wondered if she was UT, after reading Friday's EAS, but it can definitely be the heat, teeth, or SA still. Keep track of your EASs again this week and we'll see if we can find any patterns.

As for SA, it sounds like it's a possibility with her getting calm and then worked back up when put down, although that could be just because she's comfy in your arms too. Is she displaying any signs of SA during the day... more clingy, cries when put down or you leave the room, etc? How was she with your guests?  It's kind of one of thise things you have to just ride out (like a developmental milestone) but you can help her through it by reassuring her of your presence, even when you need to put her down or walk away. You can also play lots of peek-a-boo, practice leaving the room (telling her where you're going) and coming back. There are some good tips here: Tips for seperation anxiety

[Clairehv]

Thank you very much I will have a look at the tips.
A typical day with the exception of the weekend would be
WU 6.15/30am
E 7am bottle 5-6 oz
8am breakfast with remaining formula
A
S 9/9.15- 10.30 ( I wake if 1.5 hrs)

E 11.45/12 solids
A
S 1/1.15pm- 2.30/3 ( ideally she would go to 3pm but I usually get a 1.5hr nap
E snack at 3pm ish
A
E 4.30pm tea solids

We start bath time any time from 6pm depending if she woke at 2.30 or 3.
6.30/45 bottle
7pm asleep.
My daughter has always been at the low end of A time. It is only in the last 6 weeks we have managed to push from 2hrs A time to 3 and it is 4 weeks since we dropped the last catnap.


Well we had progress last night.
She slept from 7pm-6.15am.
Between 4-4.30am she was coughing and there was some moaning crying but she stayed asleep and I didn't have to go in.
I imagine she was very tired after the weekend.

With regards to SA, she really enjoyed watching the other kids and is fine be handled by the other parents.
In the last week you are right she has been whinging/crying if I leave her. She has started to crawl properly in the last week so now does follow me around.
I suppose that is a new development as is the sitting in the cot crying.

As last night was such a huge improvement if she wakes tonight I suppose I should sleep train again and not offer bottle or cuddles in our bed.

I just want to get to the point where a NW is a rarity rather than the norm. I know it is unrealistic that a baby would never wake but if they sleep through more often than not I would have to confidence just to try and quickly resettle rather than worry about bottle etc.

Thanks for the support.

I will Keep my diary though for the next week
X

[katie80]

Yay for the good night!

My daughter has always been at the low end of A time. It is only in the last 6 weeks we have managed to push from 2hrs A time to 3 and it is 4 weeks since we dropped the last catnap.

I do think she still needs more of a push, though.  Her first two A times are still not a full 3hr (which is still low for her age) for the EASY you posted and then she's got a long A to get to bed.  So, the NW could definitely be a bit of a UT/OT combination issue.  It also doesn't look like she's always doing a 1.5hr nap, so pushing the A times a bit should help that.  You can do one at a time if she's sensitive to it, but I'd try to get both of the first two to at least 3hr.

It also sounds like she is dealing with a bit of SA, and I know you will be doing the appropriate things to help her with that.

As last night was such a huge improvement if she wakes tonight I suppose I should sleep train again and not offer bottle or cuddles in our bed.

Yes, I think if you want to get to the place where NWs are not the norm, then it's right to go back to settling her without a bottle or bringing her to your bed in the MOTN.  She's proven that she can do it, so it should go quicker this time (and she already seems to be getting back on track a bit).

(((Hugs))) and good luck.  Here to hold your hand!

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs, I agree with Katie, she needs more A as hard as it is. I also wonder if 3 hrs day sleep is too much to then expect a long settled night. My first did longer naps, but shorter nights, so needed a 13 hr+ day with 3 hrs day sleep at this age (but was really in 2-1) my second does a 12 hr night so I can't expect as much day sleep. As are a bit shorter but so are his naps. One is always capped at 45 max to get enough A and solid pm nap.

[Clairehv]

Hi
Yes I felt we have regressed a little with the A times.
Yesterday's A#2 she started moaning, eye rubbing and yawning at 2.5 hours. I thought the heat and runny nose could be making her tired.

I'll check what an average EASY is for a 9/10 month old x

[katie80]

I thought the heat and runny nose could be making her tired.

Could be.

I'll check what an average EASY is for a 9/10 month old x

Here are some sample ones: chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months, chronological EASY samples, 10-12 months

[ZacsMumme]

If it's all helpful T is 9 mths and just I've just dropped his am nap from 45 mins to 35 or so..

WU 7.30
A 3hrs15-30
Nap 10.55-11.30
A 2.5 ish
Nap 2-3.30/45
A 3.5-4
BT 7-7.30

I've just dropped his am nap though as we have to fit in with Z kindy run and T likes a long night. No doubt it will change again in a week or so

[Clairehv]

Hi
So I thought we had a better EASY yesterday and I pushed A times to pretty much 3 hours
WU- 6.15 am
Nap 1 9.15-10.30 (I woke)

Nap 2 1.30pm-2.50pm (1hr 20mins)

Bath time started 6.15pm
Bedtime and asleep 6.45pm

Then here was the night.....
Crying 8pm, did gel and resettled

Crying 1.30am-4.45am
She was moaning/crying but lying down and cuddling bunny so I left. Escalated at 2am I picked up and she resettled. , clearly wanted to be asleep.
2.15 sobbing, took teething powder and ibuprofen.
Moaning in cot until 3am, escalated again. I picked up calmed and lay down.
Repeated until around 4.15am. Offered water she took about 90 ml.
Then moaned in cot but was still and she finally feel into a proper sleep at 4.45am.
Woke at 7.15am.

Then nap 1 was 10-11am today and I woke up.

It was a hard 3 hours, I think it was probably teeth.  The cries were in waves and she was clearly tired, eye rubbing yawning, moaning. Wasn't awake to play if that makes sense.

Sooo tired today.

No strategy still just wanted to let you know how things were going. X

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs Hun. T did a 3 hr NW a week ago, just like this, today his top tooth is literally popping through the gum, a big white pearl. Can you see in her mouth? Hopefully in a week you see a tooth!

I would increase your first A a touch when you can to even out your day

[katie80]

Oh (((hugs))), that definitely sounds like discomfort. Hope tonight is better!

[Clairehv]

Hi everyone,
Despite Nap 2 only being around 1hr 15 the good news is E slept from 6.45pm-7am last night!
Didn't hear even any moans.
I cannot remember the last time she did that

So until the next bad night I am just going to enjoy that. !
Hopefully we may get a good run so DH can move back into our bedroom!

[katie80]

Yay, well done E! Glad you all got some sleep!

[Clairehv]

Hi
So another good night last night.
E slept 6.45pm-6.45am.
Had a cry at 7.30pm but just needed a quick cuddle. Was moaning at bit at 5am but I didn't go in and she went back to sleep.

So may risk not giving the teething meds before bedtime and see what happens.

How to people deal with teething when it's bad, is it genuinely just a case of resettling and PU/PD until they are back asleep?

Hope everyone has a nice weekend. X

[katie80]

Yay for another good night!

How to people deal with teething when it's bad, is it genuinely just a case of resettling and PU/PD until they are back asleep?

When it's bad, I've never really been able to do PUPD to get them to resettle.  It's been more of giving meds if needed, cuddles, and then rubbing/patting their back to help them calm and drift off or when they're older, laying by the crib until they can get back to sleep.  Both of mine have suffered from some SA while teething, so I generally don't even try to leave.  It's a bit of survival and just doing what you can without creating any props (which has happened with both of them at times, I'll admit).  But, often they go back to being independent and sleeping through all on their own when it's done.

[Clairehv]

Hey Katie,
Well she has slept for 12 hours for 2 nights so I think my only resolution is to offer a bottle. I genuinely don't think at nearly 10 months she would need it.
If we have a bad night and its teeth as you say I will just rely on cuddles, meds and reassurance techniques

X

[katie80]

Sounds good, hope you've got more of those 12hr nights in your future!

[Clairehv]

Nope! We had a 4.30-5.30 am moaning wake up last night. Poor thing x

[katie80]

(((Hugs)))