Night time Terror

[JLHaberle]

I am new to this board and am in need of much help
I am a mother to a wonderful 11 month old. As of the last two weeks we have had many problem getting him to sleep. His routine was up by 8am, breakfast @ 10, nap @ 11, wake at @ 12, play till lunch time, lunch @ 2, nap @ 3, up @ 4, then up till dinner which is at 7:30, followed by bedtime bath and then calm playing till bedtime @ 9pm.
The problem that I have ran into, and that is plaguing me every night is that my son now fights me tooth and nail about going to bed. He throws temper tantrums of kicking and clawing at me or daddy at night. We have tried rocking him, patting his back, singing to him, soft music, given him his lion and tried leaving him in his crib to cry it out. When we tried cry it out, we first went in every 10 minutes then went to every 20 minutes to try to soothe him… No success and he ended up working himself up so much that he puked all over himself. That went on for 2 hours.
What can I change to help my lil boy sleep easier? I feel so bad when I have to hold him tighter in order to get him to stop thrashing around the bed. He has fallen off of the bed before due to his fits. What advice do you have to help me learn to help him?   

[We Three]

Hi and welcome to the boards.  First of all....((((hugs)))).  We will help you figure this out.  One of the hallmarks of the site (and its creator, Tracy Hogg) was that no child should ever be left to cry alone, that doing so breaks the parent/child bond.  So having him CIO (cry it out) is something that we strongly advise against. There are gentler ways to sort this out, and we are all here to help.

It's possible that the sleep issues began for one reason, but are continuing for another.  I believe that because he CIO, he may very well be fighting bedtime because of it.    The experience of CIO is traumatizing for babies, and I believe that trust wil have to be built back up in order for him not to fear bedtime.

Does he just have the 2 naps of an hour each? You might well be fighting some OT there too.

[JLHaberle]

Amelia1227,
I am thankful that we did cry it out for only one night. I cannot bare the sound of him screaming and it literally hurts me to see him so upset with me.
His naps lately have been only 30 minutes. This issue has been around about 2 weeks and in that time, his naps have been very weird. Some days he was napping just fine and still fighting me at night and other times, he wouldn't nap except for a 3 hours nap in the middle of the day. I have tried to keep him close to a schedule of naps but he fights me so hard that at times I just wait for him to show tired signs. His first nap of the day seems to be the easier, but the later naps and bedtime is where I struggle the most.
I have allowed him a bottle for his afternoon nap in order to soothe him to sleep right now, only because I need my sanity as well. It is not what I want but I have to do something to help him. I use the bottle as my last resort most the time.
We have a big trip coming up at the end of August and I plan on really putting a new routine down after that, but till then I am not sure on how to handle these scream fits. I have bruises on my ribs because of his kicking me :-( It is so hard to see my baby so upset and have no idea on how to help him.

[Emami]

I agree, 2x 1hr naps is a little on the short side.  He is at the age where he is probably heading for the 2-1 transition.  Could you do one short nap (like 45mins) and one long nap (1.5 - 2hrs) so that at least one of them is restorative?  Also he has a long time from 4pm wake up until 9pm bedtime.  Does the late bedtime work for you or could you get him down earlier?  I think Anne is right that OT is likely your issue, not helped by CIO.  Don't worry though, there are some fabulous ladies here who will be able to get you back on track!

Posted with you JLHaberie.  I think if your routine is tweaked a little bit hopefully you won't have the screaming because he'll be ready to sleep but not overtired.  Enjoy your trip though and don't stress about it while you're away, things are always a little wonky on a trip

[JLHaberle]

If I could control his naps... I really would. I lay him down and he just wakes up and plays. I have tried taking all toys but a stuffed lion out of his crib and seeing if he will lay back down but that is unsuccessful. We go to bed so late because his dad doesn't get home until 8pm and if I put him to put before 9pm, daddy doesn't get any time with son for a week at a time. I am learning that I need to slowly move his morning and afternoon naps back by at least an hour. Today we tried an afternoon nap at 4 but he only slept for 27 minutes and that was with assistance from the bottle.
It is 7:16 and we are about to feed dinner and I am going to try to lay him down about 8:30 and see if that helps, So far I am contributing his over tiredness to how early his last nap is and how short his naps are. I am willing to try anything to bring peace back into bedtime. It hasn't always been like this, and I am sure that I will get the easy times back... just with a few tweeks

[We Three]

If you have always had a good sleeper, and then things go south suddenly, it is just a phase that will likely pass.     Can you try the earlier BT just to combat the OT, and to work on the naps.....then tweak later in an effort to see daddy? In other words, I don't think he can do short naps AND a late BT.  So if an earlier BT helps you lengthen the naps by combatting the OT, then it might be worth it just for a couple of weeks....?

 Also...is he in a crib? You said he falls out of bed from flailing...?

[Erin M]

His routine was up by 8am, breakfast @ 10, nap @ 11, wake at @ 12, play till lunch time, lunch @ 2, nap @ 3, up @ 4, then up till dinner which is at 7:30, followed by bedtime bath and then calm playing till bedtime @ 9pm.

I need to write this out differently -- tell me if I've got it right:
8 - wake up
11-12 - nap 1
3-4 - nap 2
9 - BT
Is that your typical routine?

I'd also agree with him not getting enough sleep -- but I'd also say that you need to increase the time he is awake before his naps -- also, you're probably headed into 1 nap territory sooner rather than later.
These two links will help explain that some more:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

Also, is there a possibility of discomfort of some sort right now -- he's at the age where he could be getting molars, eye teeth, or both -- all of which were rough on all 3 of my kiddos.  I'd think that the combination of all of this is adding to your difficulties.

(((hugs)))

Posted at the same time as Anne -- totally agree with what she said about earlier BT for a few days (maybe during the weekend?) so he can catch up on sleep and then work on pushing the A times to lengthen the naps and work towards getting on 1 nap?

[JLHaberle]

We just went to bed at 8:15 and only fought me a little bit, He was harder to set down in his crib but he did fall asleep better. I am thinking that by pushing his nap back to 4 and then going to bed around 8, he did a lot better. I am going to stay on this track and see if it stay successful. I hate to have him not spend time with his father but with time I can push naps back a little bit so he can handle staying up till 9 so he can spend time with daddy.

Thank you for all of your assistance and support. I need it

[katie80]

Hi there, welcome to BW! (((Hugs))), it sounds like you're having a rough time right now. You're getting great advice already and we will stick with you through this.

Also...is he in a crib? You said he falls out of bed from flailing...?

I wondered about this too, although you mentioned his crib in the last post, so I'm assuming that's where he sleeps. Is he or has he ever been an independent sleeper?  If not, how are you getting him to sleep?

I think the ladies are right in upping the A times so as to get better naps and keeping an earlier BT until you do. At 11mo, he can likely stay awake around 3.5-4hr, but you might have to do that gradually so he doesn't get OT in the process (maybe 15-20min at a time). A typical routine for a LO of this age with your ideal WU and BT might look something like this...
Wake 8am
Nap 1 11:30/12-1/1:30pm
Nap 2 5-5:45/6pm
BT 8:30/9pm

I was also wondering about Erin's question, re: teething. Molars can definitely be on the move at this age and can really cause sleep disruptions. Do you think he's teething right now?

[Erin M]

I hate to have him not spend time with his father but with time I can push naps back a little bit so he can handle staying up till 9 so he can spend time with daddy.

Definitely look at it as a temporary means to get his sleeping back on track.  I understand how important family time is, but right now getting him back on track is more important.  Glad BT was better!

[JLHaberle]

We had a successful night. His schedule yesterday was as so
Up @ 9
Nap @ 12-12:30
Lunch @ 2
Nap @ 4:15-4:45
Dinner @ 7:30
Bed @ 8:15

He fought me a little bit at bed but besides that we has success
We just woke up at 7am and I am going to work on pushing his first nap to 12ish and second nap at 4ish and bed about 8ish

He does sleep in his crib but we put him to sleep in our bed or by rocking him to sleep in my arms. He lays in bed with me most the time and then move him to his crib. He has never been an independent sleeper. We moved around too much and were living in tight spaces so I was never able to get him to sleep on his own.

The nights that he was having his fits, he would fall off my bed because he was thrashing around and would roll himself off the bed... luckily its just a boxspring and a mattress on the floor.

I do know that he is teething, he is getting his fourth tooth on the bottom, we have a teething routine before bed of teething tablets or gel, we have a teething ring with us and have him chew on the ring while we change his diaper and lay down with him, I start to rock him and while he falls asleep I take the ring away. He doesn't need it every night and isn't very reliant on it, Thankfully.

[katie80]

Glad you had a better night!

We just woke up at 7am and I am going to work on pushing his first nap to 12ish and second nap at 4ish and bed about 8ish

This may actually be too far of a push... going from 3hr to 5hr A. I would push out the A times gradually by 15-20 (maybe 30min every few days) until you get to about 4hr A and then shoot for a routine close to what I posted above.

He does sleep in his crib but we put him to sleep in our bed or by rocking him to sleep in my arms. He lays in bed with me most the time and then move him to his crib. He has never been an independent sleeper. We moved around too much and were living in tight spaces so I was never able to get him to sleep on his own.

Are you interested in getting him to independent sleep?  I think it would make a big difference in your issues. We'd be happy to walk you through an appropriate, respectful method of teaching him how to get to sleep on his own.

Finally, have you tried giving any pain relief meds for teething?  Some of the bedtime issues may definitely be from discomfort and often the tablets and gels aren't as effective at long-term relief as true pain meds.

[JLHaberle]

I have given him pain meds for teething occasionally but he tends to spit most of it out.

I would LOVE to get him into being an independent sleeper. Right now he is still in our bedroom but we will be moving him into his own room in a month or so, after all of the relatives are done visiting.

I am up for anything. He has done alot better today with his mood but still being fussy during sleep time. We did 3 naps today but the later two were only 30 minutes. I tried to lay him back down again after waking but he fought it.

Please help me... I would be so greatful

[katie80]

(((Hugs))) hon, we are happy to try and help.

I have given him pain meds for teething occasionally but he tends to spit most of it out.

Does he take a bottle?  I've heard of people mixing them in with the BT bottle, so you don't have to give them with a syringe.  Also, have you tried ibuprofen?  Supposedly it tastes better to LOs than acetaminophen and they will more readily take it.  I also think it works a bit better for teething pain.

I would LOVE to get him into being an independent sleeper. Right now he is still in our bedroom but we will be moving him into his own room in a month or so, after all of the relatives are done visiting.

I think it's fine to start working on this while he's still in your room, unless you think he's really in pain from teething and it would be better to wait for a bit. You will go through your normal wind down routine of BT feed, singing, rocking, etc but put him in his crib rather than with you in bed to go to sleep.  You will stay right with him, either standing, sitting or lying next to the crib or on your bed and repeat your sleepy phrase to him while either patting the mattress to have him lie down or actually putting him down yourself.  You won't do any picking up at this age, it tends to only make them more mad as they think they are getting out of the crib, but try to calm him in the crib and lay him down if necessary.  Doing the put down part is individual to each kiddo, some do better with it, for some it makes them more angry.  So, you will have to assess during the process what works best for him. Another key is to really only help him if he needs it.  If he is chatting, moaning, fussing, or playing just leave him to it and sit, stand, or lie next to him.  Only go to him and help him when he has a genuine cry and needs your reassurance and help. Once he learns how to get himself to sleep on his own, you can start gradually leaving the room.

It will be very tough the first few days and you will likely want to give in, but it is an essential skill in my opinion and is so worth teaching.  You will feel proud and encouraged when it's all said and done.  We will hold your hand all the way!

[JLHaberle]

His grandmother is visiting this week, after she leaves, I will see about starting that routine.
We had a bad night last night and his routine is completely off today so I'm thinking that I am going to have to restart his routine after his grandmother leaves, I doubt that having daddy and grandma around to entertain him will help stay to a routine.

What would you recommend on waiting until he is in his own room? Right now we have grandma here and then in August we are going traveling for two weeks, in and out of hotels.
Do you recommend that I wait until we are back and done with all of his birthday activities to start putting him down on his own? With him being a year next month, does it get harder to get him to sleep on his own?
When I put him in his own room, I can put his crib next to the spare bed in there that way he can see me laying down. Before we moved his crib across the room, he was right next to us and he did a little bit better with night waking.
What do you believe would give the best results in getting him to calm himself and sleep on his own?

[katie80]

How long do you have in between grandma leaving and you leaving on your trip?  If it's a week or two, I think you definitely have enough time to get started.  He may regress a bit on the trip, but usually it comes back quicker once you've already put in the tough work of training.  That being said, if you don't think you will be committed fully because of the trip and/or his current teething, then it might be worth it to wait.  There's not much of a difference in sleep training an 11/12/13mo old, as I'm assuming he's already pulling up to standing in the crib and moving around in it.

If you're going to wait, I would definitely do it starting in his room and put up a bed for you to sleep in the first few nights as well.  He is used to sleeping in the same bedroom as you and you will want to reestablish trust with him after CIO, so this will be the best way to do that.

What do you believe would give the best results in getting him to calm himself and sleep on his own?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here and if I've answered it above, but I would say to be really consistent in how you sleep train, reassuring him but not giving help when it's not needed.  Use your voice and encourage him to do what he is capable of doing (lying down and going to sleep), even though he hasn't done it before.  At this age, he is really starting to understand what you say, so explain to him that he will be going to sleep in his crib, you will stay with him, but he needs to lie down and go to sleep, etc etc.  It may not seem like he's ever going to calm down the first time you try, but I promise he eventually will and will learn how to do it on his own.

Hope that helps!  Please let us know what other questions you have.

[JLHaberle]

He has 3 weeks between grandma leaving and us leaving on our trip. Right now he is sleeping pretty good with us keeping him on his new schedule and it only takes me about 5 minutes of rocking to get him to sleep. He is doing better with being put down in his crib as well. I bought a pad that vibrate and it has helped calm him when he starts to fuss when I lay him down.
He is cutting two teeth on the bottom right now so he has been really attached to holding onto mommy. We have started giving Tylenol around his first nap, tablet if need be during the day and night time gel for bed, he has been pretty good with that.

I do believe that I will wait until he is in his own room to start this new part of the routine. I plan on putting his crib right up against the bed so I can lay down right next to him and rub his back while we both lay down. He freaks out anytime he is put in the crib so I am sure that it will be a big challenge to get him to lay down.

Can any of you ladies write out a mock routine for me? With the current routine we have, we eat, bath, play with soft toys that make no noise and then bedtime. I rock him while we lay down together or pat his butt... From that can you give me a guideline to work with.
I love my cuddle times but believe that we will all be a whole lot happier when he sleeps on his own.

[katie80]

With the current routine we have, we eat, bath, play with soft toys that make no noise and then bedtime. I rock him while we lay down together or pat his butt... From that can you give me a guideline to work with.
I love my cuddle times but believe that we will all be a whole lot happier when he sleeps on his own.

Sure, you've got a great start, really.  While you're still putting him to sleep the way you are, I'd go ahead and add in a song or book that you always do (the book being dependent on his personality, as some spiriteds and touchies are too stimulated by book reading before sleeping), so that he has another cue that it's sleep time.  Do you have a chair or anything you could sit in and cuddle together or even rock a bit before you lay him down?  You certainly don't have to lose out on any cuddles... there is plenty of time during the day to still do that and before bed.  You just dont want to cuddle him all the way to sleep.

[JLHaberle]

I don't have a chair but I'm sure I could make sure with the mattress that will be in the room. I could just use the edge to sit on and read to him. I have started reading him "I love you forever". It was my face kids book and I wanted to share it with him
Since I changed his schedule getting him to sleep has been easy. I have really enjoyed him taking hour long naps, allowing me the down time I need for school work.

Thank you ladies for the continued support through this.

[Erin M]

It sounds like you're doing great! 

[katie80]

It sounds like you're doing great! 

Agreed... and we'll be here to support you getting him to sleep independently as well!

[JLHaberle]

So for the past couple weeks, I have planned with lil man's schedule to nail down the best schedule possible for both of us. I think I have it down pretty good, still having some good days and bad but its all to be expected. He goes to sleep so much better now that he naps better.
We are still dealing with night wakings but they are only 10-20 minutes long and I am able to soothe him most the time without bringing him to bed with me. Some nights, he does win and gets to sleep on the big bed but seems to fall asleep right off the bat and sleeps very well and long. He has started this new thing of 2-3 hour daytime nap but then power nap in the later afternoon nap.
Its all just a work in progress. When we get from Oregon at the end of the month and after all the excitement of his birthday parties, I plan on moving him to his own room and start working on independent sleeping with him. I will be asking for a lot of help and support then 
Thanks for the continued support

[katie80]

So glad to hear he's setttling better. Please do come back for support when you work on independent sleep... it's always nice to have a hand to hold and there are lots of ladies here who would love to help you through it!