Should i be settling and not feeding??

[Georgena]

Hi everyone!!
So, DD is now 6 months 3 wks!! No idea how that happened!!
We got back off holiday 2 weeks ago and im still waiting for things to go back to how they were ( more like hoping really!!) before the hols she was napping really well and lets say 3 out of 5 nights was going straight through with DF, she is EBF. On holiday it was extremly hot and she was sleeping in with us,she started waking quite a lot, i would feed her, one because it was so hot and two,so not to wake the rest of the house, also on the plane (11+ hours) i basically fed her every time she cried, she wasnt dealing well with the travelling, needless to say, it became a habit of feed to sleep!
Ive managed to break it and get her down for naps and BT without feeding ( she has always slept independantly) but she is still waking at night and now im so confussed as to whether she is hungry or not??? She sometimes eats sometimes doesnt take a full feed.
Also i think teeth might be an issue and tummy ach, ive stopped giving her baby rice and just sticking with fruit and veg purees at the moment.
So my question is, should i stop feeding her at night or not?
Is it normal for nearly 7 month old to still be waking?
Should i think about dropping the DF even though she is still waking in the night?

Here is a rough EASY,
 Still trying to get back on track but this is an example of a good day

WU @ between 6-7 ( usually 7)
E 7:30
Solids 8:30
S  9:30/10am
If ive got it right she will nap for nearly 2 hours,

E 11:30 or 12
Solid 1pm
S  2:30/3pm cant always get a good nap here
E 3:30/4:00
Solid 4:30
Sometimes she will CN sometimes not
BT 7:30/8:00 if shes not had a CN i will try earlier BT but when i do she tends to wake up after 45 mins and is hard to settle.

DF i aim for about 10pm, she quite often will wake between 9:30-10:30

NF can be anytime between 12:30-3:30

When she wakes earlier i somtimes try to settle sometimes i just feed her as im a complete zombie at that time as ive not long been asleep, i find that time really hard to deal with.
Sorry its so long!! Just dont know if i should see how it goes or if there is something im not doing or seeing and need to change something!
Thanks ladies, as always, Any tips will be much appreciated!  X

[goldmom]

I think at 7 months, some LOs are still eating at night, but not all. Erratic waking is usually hunger, but if she's not taking a full feed (or its affecting her morning feed) you can try resettling.

Your EASY looks about right, except the end of your day seems long. Can you move BT earlier, it looks like the A before BT now is 4 hours or so (3:30-7:30 or 4-8). This is significantly longer than the other A's in your day and may be causing some OT (4 hours is pretty long for this age). I would aim for BT around 6:30/7 or so, even with a good second nap.

[Georgena]

Hi, yep, the end of the day is long,i just have this fear that she will wake earlier in the morning,i struggle to get 11 hr nights with her but i will definatly try.
Last night was crap!! Im really annoyed at myself
BT was at 7:30,she went down fine,
WU @ 8:30 managed to resettle
DF  10:20
NW 12:30 i tried to resettle for just over an hour but in the end i fed her, this is why im so annoyed, poor girl cried for an hour then i just fed her anyway,i caved, which sucks for both of us,but then i doubt myself thinking shes hungry and i dont want to denny her food!
So,... She fed and fell asleep on the breast!!
NW again at 5:30 so i went in, fed her,just a little, took her off the breast, she cried but i managed to settle her then she woke up at 7:30 and here we are!!
How long can i expect to be trying to settle her, should it take hours??
Lets hope i get some good naps in today to set us up for a good night!!!

[goldmom]

When I knew my DS didn't need to eat if he woke up at night (less than 3 hours after a previous feed) I would give him to my DH to resettle him, since I found that if I was doing it then he expected to eat and wouldn't go down (after tryting to resettle for 30 min, the second I handed him to DH he fell right to sleep  , but occassionally DH just rocked him for a while in a stroller to get him back to sleep without a feed - once he was used to not eating at a habitual NW, he slept through and the rocking didn't become a prop). Is there anyone that can help you with resettling at night?

To shorten your last A time, can you try adjusting the A time at other times of the day in order to have the last nap end a little later in the day? I also worry a lot about an early wakeup with an early BT, so I have been keeping a CN at the end of the day (DD is a little younger than yours), but I haven't noticed that she wakes up significantly later with a later BT than she did with an earlier BT without the nap, her night just seems to be getting shorter (the 20 min CN at the end of the day did stop the long NW we were having, but the longer 30 min CN was giving us an EW).

[katie80]

Hi there, just hopping on for some extra support. Goldmom has given you great advice! I think you have a combination of OT, possible prop going on.  That last A time is definitely long for her and I know it's scary to do an earlier bedtime, but often when you're transitionsing from 3 naps to 2 or 2 naps to 1, and earlier bedtime is key to helping prevent OT.  And even though you think she'll only do 11hr (which is probably right on 3 naps), she may do much longer when only on two (with the longer A times).  It's worth a try.

I also think it's a good idea to have someone else do the settling if you're trying to stop a feed.  I will say however, I was the one to do this in our family, as my DH just would end up bringing the baby in to me to feed anyway. So, it is possible.  You just need to be able to stick with it even if it last two hrs the first night.  I can't imagine she was really hungry at 12:30, since she'd just had a DF 2hr earlier.  The night on the whole with the early wake-ups looks OT to me.  So, if you give yourself a time limit of not feeding before 4hr, then you need to resettle until she falls asleep.  Don't stop at 4hr to feed her, even if you go over, but get her all the way to sleep and then feed upon the next waking (even if it's just 10min later). It may be tough the first couple nights, but should get better relatively quickly. 

It is still well within the normal range though, for you to have a NF (or even DF and NF) at this age.

[Georgena]

Thank you so much for your help!  I will go with the earlier BT. She has napped quite well today so no time for CN. What happens if I get a very short 2 nd nap?  Should I let her have a CN? As for help settling at night,  only at the weekends as DH works very long hours and in the week a storm could pass through the bedroom and he would sleep through it!  But I've pre warned him that I will need his help this weekend! ! So tonight is the night!  And yes,  she can't be hungry only 2 hours after the DF!!  Wish me luck! !! 

[katie80]

Yes, if the second nap is quite short, she's still at an age where I'd do a CN.

Good luck!  Keep us posted!

[Georgena]

Well,.... Something very strange happened!!
So, Got her to bed at 6:50!! Bath time was a bit of a nighgtmare, i usually feed before,i think she thought i had forgotten!! She was quite tired and keeping her awake for the last feed was quite difficult, not sure how to tackle that?? Heres yesterdays EASY

WU and E 7:30
A (includes giving solids)
S 10:20
WU and E 12:00
A- solids and we had to go out
S 3:00 in stroller
WU and E 4:00
This is where i started having doubts, she usually can only go 3 hrs btween feeds in the evening but this would make the next feed at 7:00 and i wanted her asleep by then
A- solids,relaxed play,bath
E 6:40 had trouble getting her to take full feed
Asleep by 7:00
WU crying at 7:40 took a while to settle
DF 9:50 which she woke up crying for.

Then this is when the strange thing happened!! 
NW 12:25, 'here we go' got myself mentally prepared for a long session of resettling,went in, didnt use the patting, just the sshhing, she was asleep again within 10 mins!!
WU 6:30!!!
So, it went pretty well,apart from the begining of the evening.
Shes not napping well today at all, think i put her down a bit late for 1st nap so lets see how tonight goes, im not in the clear yet!!

[katie80]

That sounds not bad at all. Sometimes i think they can sense our resolve and so settle better. I hope tonight goes just as well or better!

FWIW, I would have done the same thing with the BT feed. At this age it gets tough fitting in so many eating sessions in a short A time. It's really normal. I knew though, if the BT feed wasn't great then I'd make up for it at the DF. Once the As get a bit longer, you can offer the 3rd BF before the second nap, do solids after and then get a good feed in before BT.

Keep us posted...

[Georgena]

hello!
ok, quick update! so we've cracked the 12.30 night feed, we are down to just one and although she wakes at different times im not really sure she is that hungry!! last night was a nightmare, she woke at 1.30 so I tried to resettle until 4am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I then fed her which again I felt terrible about and have felt guilty all day! she didn't feed for long and didn't settle well after (probably cos she had been crying for 2 hrs)
so ive come to the conclusion that im not good at sticking to my guns and maybe the gradual withdrawal approach would be better, do you have any info or links to help me out? ive checked online but can only find info on settling at BT and for that she is fine (btw early BT has been going well) I need it for weaning off the boob as a prop. should I post on the 'props' board?
also any info on how I can up her calories in the day,she doesn't take a bottle so would it be best to try a bit of cluster feeding? shes not really taking that much for the DF which could be part of the problem as well??
thanks so much, from a very sleepy Mum!!!

[katie80]

Hmm, is she working on new teeth at all?  That long of a NW often indicates some type of discomfort.

If you think she's not taking much of a DF, you could always drop that and just keep a NF for now.  It's perfectly normal at her age to still have one NF.  As for upping calories, I wouldn't really cluster feed at this age, but give high calorie solids, such as avocado, and you can also offer a top up BF after solids or offer EBM in a sippy cup. 

When you say gradual withdrawal approach, what exactly do you mean?  Are you talking about feeding less and less and trying to drop it that way or are you meaning to gradually work your way out of the room?  How are you currently trying to settle her?

[Mami S]

I started with the feeding each time less with my DS worked great, i think more for me because then i knew oi was not denying my son food, then GS came in and now im back to basics, but we will get back on track

I can tell you what i did, my DS is EBF but for the noght feed i would express milk so he did not have the direct contact with me, i started with 6 Oz 3 days later drop to 5 after that he took himself only 3 then i gave him 2 3 days later 1 and then i just sttled him when he woke,

Hope this helps, good luck

[Georgena]

its not the first long night waking either and im finding it really hard to know if its teeth or tummy  she has no teeth yet but today has been sucking/chewing on her thumb like her life depends on it!! Also she has been really constipated, her poops have been really hard so for the last 2 days ive been feeding her just pears,prunes,papyaya, my choice is a bit limited as im still slowly introducing foods and we hadn't really got that far!!don't knowif its working as shes not been yet!

When you say gradual withdrawal approach, what exactly do you mean?  Are you talking about feeding less and less and trying to drop it that way

yep,that! im happy to keep the feed if she needs it , i just don't know if she does or not I will keep it for a while longer and see what happens.

How are you currently trying to settle her?

I usually just place my hand on her,if she gets more upset I do a gentle shh,if she gets very stressed I will pick her up until calm then put her back down, as shes settling I take my hand away and slowly stop the shhing, sometimes all I need is the hand, other times its the whole song and dance.

for the noght feed i would express milk

I would like to do this but she flat out refuses the bottle, I think she would have a breakdown if I tried giving her a bottle at night!!
thank you for your support,the long NW's are taking there toll, lets see how tonight goes!

[Georgena]

If you think she's not taking much of a DF, you could always drop that and just keep a NF for now

whats the best way to do that? should I start bringing it earlier?
she does wake for it if I don't give it, speaking of which.....
i'll give an update tomorrow!

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), it sounds like it could be either teething or tummy discomfort. Hard to know, I agree.  You could always try giving her some meds to see if it helps.  You wouldn't want to do acetaminophen though, as that can make constipation worse... ibuprofen would be better.  Do you offer water with solids in a sippy cup?  You can also do a top up BF with solids to help them digest better (and get a few extra calories).

When you say gradual withdrawal approach, what exactly do you mean?  Are you talking about feeding less and less and trying to drop it that way

yep,that! im happy to keep the feed if she needs it , i just don't know if she does or not I will keep it for a while longer and see what happens.

Honestly, if you are cutting solids back and she's struggling with tummy discomfort (or teething), I'd err on the side of feeding.  I kept the DF or one NF until 9/10mo with both of mine until they were established on solids, so I knew it was fine to drop it.  Right now, one feed will help her get more liquids for her tummy and can also be a natural analgesic for teething. 

If you think she's not taking much of a DF, you could always drop that and just keep a NF for now

whats the best way to do that? should I start bringing it earlier?
she does wake for it if I don't give it, speaking of which.....

Yes, I'd start bringing it forward, one so she stops waking for it and two as that's a natural way to drop it.  I think at this age, you could just drop it cold turkey, esp if you are keeping a NF, but since she's waking for it, I'd gradually bring it forward.  If she continues waking, you could do wake-to-sleep to get her through that time.

Long NWs are tough... hope last night was better!

[Georgena]

ahhh!!! its so random at the moment!! 2 nights ago was great,
BT@ 7
DF 10
NF 4
WU 6.45 lovely! then last night it all went to pot again!
gave the DF early as she woke at 9.30
then awake from 11.30-1 gave meds and in the end fed,
awake again at 4 and I fed again,its sooo out of character for her,it must be discomfort of some sort! Could it be separation anxiety kicking in??
If it is discomfort then do I settle until fully asleep?
and I know I shouldn't have fed her on both wakings last night but,i did, now I'm sure I will pay for it!! these little people are gorgeous but oh so exhausting!   
thanks again for your support! x 

[katie80]

Yes, it does sound like discomfort to me.  If she's getting teeth, SA can often go along with that... is she showing signs of it during the day?  How have her poops been... do you think her tummy is still hurting?

If it is discomfort, the best way to settle her is gently and consistently.  I'd still try to do it in the crib as much as possible, becuase you don't really want to come out of it with a new prop, but sometimes we all need a little more help when we're uncomfortable.  And, don't worry about the feeds, sometimes we do what we need to to get by.  I don't think one night will give you a big setback.

(((Hugs)))

[Georgena]

Hi Katie, so! The last few nights have been a bit better,i still get some OT wakes ups in the early evening but usually i know when that will happen so i prepare myself! Her 2nd nap is still not consistent and she wont always CN!
We called the doc on Sat ( dont have HV's here) to ask what we can do about her poop and she said to boil some plums and keep the water to make tea and to be insistent with that and water! She said to put sugar in but ive chosen not to, i think now that that has been the problem,and i dont know if we are out of the woods yet!!!
 still no sign of teeth and wrt SA she is fine in the day, i can leave her playing on her own quite happily,when shes tired and grumpy she doesn't like to be left but thats normal!! ( i think)
She still wakes up some night at 12:30 on the dot but I can usually leave her  and she'll settle herself, she then will wake anytime between 1:30-4:00 when i feed her, so i think that 1 NW is good enough for now! I cant complain!! Im hoping with more liquid it will soften her up and we will have calmer nights, until of corse those teeth pop out!!

[katie80]

Sounds like progress!

FWIW, I've heard it can take the bowels a little while to recover from constipation, so I'd keep giving her the extra fluids/prune juice even after things have softened for awhile.  I'm sure some of the NWs you were having were from that discomfort.

If you'd like to post your routine, I'd be happy to take a look and see if we can't get that pm nap worked out, so you don't have to worry aobut the CN anymore. (Not that I'll be able to solve it, but I'm willing to give it a try. )

[Georgena]

Its so nice to have a helping hand through all this!!
Need to go wake LO up ( typical,now she sleeps!!!) but when i get the chance i'll sit and post my routine from the last couple of days!! See what we can come up with!  x   

[katie80]

Sounds good!

[Georgena]

ok, so heres EASY from the last couple of days!

WU   06h30
E      06h50
A      08h solids
S      09h25  WU   10h50
E      11h
A      12h solids
S      13h45 WU   14h15 tried to resettle, could tell she wasn't going to,so moved on!
A
E     15h
A     didn't give solids here as I wanted her to sleep again and didn't want to give them too close to S time
S     15h40 I woke her up at 17h!!
A     solids, just a bit of pureed pear as it was getting late
E     18h15 didn't eat so much,
A     bath
E     19h top up
BT   19h20

NW  21h DH settled,it took until 21h50
DF    22.45 left it later than usual to make sure she was asleep!

WU@ 05h30!!!!  (no night feed!!!! )
then she was in and out of sleep until she was really awake at 06h15!

E  06h40
A  08h solids
S  09h20 WU 10h40
E  11h
A  12h solids
S  13h30 WU 14h same thing as the day before,no luck settling
A
E  14h45
A
S  15h45 WU 16h45
A  solids (light) bath
E  18h40
BT 19h10
WU  15 mins later, resettled her
WU  again @ 20h went up to resettle
WU  again @ 21h settled herself
WU  22h20 gave DF
slept through till 05h30 then she settled herself until 06h30

so today,
WU 06h30
E 06h50
A 08h solids
started getting really grumpy, nearly falling asleep on nappy table so put to bed
S 09h15 WU 10h!!maybe woke earlier than I thought??
and here we are! not really sure how the rest of the day will go, im a bit thrown as usually her morning nap is good
usually its her 2nd nap, the only thing I can think is that she cant handle that 2nd A time
what do you think?

[katie80]

Actually, I think it's the opposite and she needs a touch more A time for the second one and also likely the first. I think today's morning nap was UT, even though she was looking tired and falling asleep. Frustrating, isn't it? But, the A time was less than it usually is and a 45min nap is pretty classic UT. I would try to push for 3hr A each time and possibly just a little more for the second A time if the first nap is good (1.5hr+).

I know it's too late for this now, but at this age my DS did a CN, long nap, CN. After the 45min morning CN, he could go 2hr awake and then sleep for a good 1.5-2hr.

[Georgena]

Ok, i will give that a try,would you PD at 3hrs or a little before?? I was so set on that 2nd nap being OT as it was 30 mins i didnt even think of going the other way!!
As for today, well, its been a struggle, no sleep happening,got OT and wouldnt sleep, got 20 mins in the stroller!! Early to bed tonight!
Another thing ( sorry) , now shes gone through the night twice without a feed, if she wakes i should try to settle her without feeding,no??
Lets hope she has another good night ( famous last words!!) so i can stretch those A times tomorrow!

[katie80]

Ok, i will give that a try,would you PD at 3hrs or a little before?? I was so set on that 2nd nap being OT as it was 30 mins i didnt even think of going the other way!!

Well, 30min naps are often OT, but seeing as the A time isn't yet at 3hr and you struggle to resettle her, my guess is more on the UT side.  I would try putting down at 2:45-2:50 for morning nap, with the goal of having her asleep at 3hr.  I'd do the same for the pm nap for a few days and then maybe stretch to putting her down at 3hr.

Another thing ( sorry) , now shes gone through the night twice without a feed, if she wakes i should try to settle her without feeding,no??

It's up to you.  If she's had a tough day and is quite OT and struggling in the night, I'd be tempted to feed her to get her back to sleep if needed. I don't think it's a prop issue as she's shown you she is capable, and it's actually normal to have a bit of back and forth until the feed is really gone.

[Georgena]

No luck yeton the afternoon nap, i put her down at 2h55 yesterday but i think it was too soon, she was quite awake and took her a while to get to sleep then woke after 40 mins!! I will stretch it again today.
Dont want to speak too soon (shes nappig now) but her morning naps have been great, need to wake her at 2 hrs!! Nights are getting better but shes still waking early in the evening,and shes waking once at night for a feed, settling well after!
Will keep playing with the A time for the afternoon nap and keep you posted!
Enjoy your weekend!! 

[katie80]

Sounds like progress and yes, I think that 2h55min was too short (it sounds like she ended up missing her window somewhere in there). Hope you had a good weekend too... how are things going?

[Georgena]

Hey,
So, weekend wasnt great wrt nappping,but for some reason weekends are always a bit off but,...today i got my angel baby back!!
Shes still waking once at night,but today she woke @ 6am, talked to herself for 20 mins then when back to sleep i woke her at 7am, 1st nap PD at 3h5mins, had to wake her at 2hr mark then 2nd nap,same A time woke herself after 1hr30!!
Made bedtime nice and easy!! Its 20h here now,lets see how the rest of the evening goes!
Tummy seems to be better,giving more liquid which is helping,so now im giving her more filling foods,rather than just fruit! Might help with NW's,lets see!!
Thanks again for all your help, x

[katie80]

Sounds like great progress!  Hope the night went well!