Twin a- NWs 1-3 times, twin b--rough BT

[Beweakley]

I need to start a new post on my twins. My other post (Twins habitual night waking) now has new problems added to it. 

Everett who had been sleeping like a dream is now struggling to go down for naps, not every time but sometimes.  And all of a sudden he's crying hysterically when he's put down for bed.  That's never been a problem before.  I know there's a post somewhere on 10-11 month sleep regression, but i couldnt find it.  Could this be the sleep regression? 

And I've given up on ST with Elijah.  He's started feeding off of Everett's BT struggle and now cries at BT also.  And he's still waking up every night for what seems like no reason whatsoever.  He wakes three times now.  It used to be once at 3:45 every night.  Now it's around midnight then again around 3ish and again about 5:30.  It sucks and I'm tired of fighting with him.  School starts back this week and I have to be able to function enough to teach, so Elijah's in the bed with me after his first NW.  You'd think that would keep him from waking again, but not really.  He wakes to play around 3ish and then again at 5:30 out of habit.  Every night I hope and pray that he just won't wake.  I know he can do it.  He slept through one night last week and two nights last month.  But we've never had anymore than that. 

Here's our EAS and I'm open to revisions if that will help. 

A 6:30
E sippy milk 6:45
E breakfast 8:00ish
E sippy milk 9:45
S 10:00
A 11:00
E sippy milk 11:15
E lunch 1:00ish
E sippy milk 2:15
S 2:30
A 3:30
E sippy milk 3:45
E supper 5:30 ish
Baths and bed by 7:00


And what do I do about Everett?  Will he go back to his old ways of going down on his own?  Or is this the new normal?

[PaulsMom]

Hugs Hun times 2!  I would start to push out their A time a bit more which may help with Everett's nap battles.  They may be able to handle As of up to 4 hrs or so.  Increase their A slowly so just 10 to 15 min for 3 days and then do another increase.

Wrt Elijah's  nw's, is he crying when he wakes or is he chatty?  If he cries, what type of cry is it?  If possible, try to settle him in his crib.  If co-sleeping is a prop, here is some info GRADUALLY WEAN CO-SLEEPING:HELP YOUR BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HIS OWN. 
HTH

[katie80]

Hi hon, I was just thiking about you last night as I know school is gearing up to start around the country (I was a teacher too before kids and still miss that beginning of the year feeling), so was going to post on your other thread and see how things were going.  I'm bummed to hear you're still struggling.

PaulsMom has given you perfect advice.  It looks like Everett needs a bit more A time and Elijah likely too.  Has anything changed in their days as you prepare to go back?  Just wondering if Everett could be struggling with some SA... it can be a sleep disrupter at this age.

[Beweakley]

Ladies, thanks for both responses.  I believe you are right about their A times.  My mom keeps the boys now that I'm back to school and she said for the last two days that Everett is struggling to go down for nap #2.  Says he plays in his crib for about 15 minutes and then nods off.  I told her it might be a possibility that we start pushing up their A time.  Elijah on the other hand is always ready for his naps because he's trying to catch up from lost night time sleep. 

I don't want their days to get too long because that's when OT rears it's ugly head.  And 7-7:30ish seems to be the sweet spot for their bedtime.  So if I start pushing for 4 hour A times what should I expect in terms of daytime sleep and how long should their day be at this age?  I've looked at the sample schedules but can't get a clear picture on what I should try to do for my boys.  They'll be 11 months in 5 days.  Right now their total day is about 12.5 hours. I'll consider any advice you have on a possible schedule for them.

I can be thankful that once Everett is down he's staying down all night.  I hear him about 6 am, but it's usually a minute of mantra and he dozes back off. I wake him at 6:30 to start our day.  And you're probably right about SA.  I didn't think about that.  Because he's hysterical and it started last week when I had to miss BT to attend open house at school.  That's the first time I've ever missed BT and my mom said both boys were very difficult to get to bed.  And he's done it every night since then even with me here.

WRT Elijah, he's started pulling up and standing all the time now.  He's more determined to walk because he's tired of combat crawling and you can tell he's frustrated at times when he's on the floor.  So, we're seeing the same pulling up behavior in his crib.  When I first put him down for BT, I literally have to PD about 12 times before he gives in and stays down.  He hasn't figured out how to get down on his own and screams bloody murder when he stands.  That's the same thing that happens at every NW.  I do PD a few times and he might stay down or he might continue.  It's 10:30 here now and I've already had to go in twice since he was put to bed for two NWs.  Both times I was able to PD and talk to him with a bit of shush pat and he's back to sleep in his crib.  That's easier to do when I haven't gone to bed myself, but in the MOTN I give in because I'm exhausted and frustrated with the battle.  I'm definitely a prop for him now and will consider that info on weaning. 

I know this might sound crazy, but I really think he just needs someone to sleep with.  He's been doing it for so long now.  And I know we're stuck in this cycle and things have been complicated from time to time with developmental stuff, SA, etc . But overall this has been nonstop for many months.  He did great co-sleeping with Everett in one crib for five months.  I've read of some parents that let their twins co-sleep for as long as the babes wanted it. I was afraid to let them once they started rollling around, but now I'm thinking if there was a way to let them again I would try it.  Even if I have to stay up one weekend to watch them on the monitor just to make sure they're okay.  I would do it if I thought it would help.  Have you all ever heard of anyone doing this?  I know there's going to be some people that are completely against it because of possible risks involved.  But that same risk is there when he's co-sleeping with me.  Just a thought...

[PaulsMom]

I hate to say it but they may need different schedules.  Or at least until Elijah catches up on sleep a bit more.  Would you be able to do that, say with your moms help?

Typically an 11 mo old will need between 2 and 3 hrs sleep depending on the bub.  Here's some info Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep. As their A pushes out then their days will get a bit longer but you can keep it in check by capping naps.  I do think that Everett is heading to the 2-1.  From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older). There are basically two options - either long am nap followed by a CN or short am nap with a long pm nap.  With these routines, some of the As will be shorter than others.  Do they tend to nap better in the morning or afternoon?  To keep their bt at around 7 to 7:30 you could try something like this

Wu 6:30
S 10:30 to 11:10. (Cap nap to 40 min)
S 2:00 to 3:30
Bt 7:30

Or

Wu 6:30
S 10:30 to 12:00
S 4:00 to 4:40 (can be capped shorter if they are fighting bt)
Bt 7:30

Wrt SA.  Hugs!  It's hard.  They may also be approaching a WW which may also contribute to some SA.  Here's some info on SA Separation Anxiety.   Is Everett clingy during the day or just at bt?  You can try WI/WO but I wasn't sure if they were sharing a room (I was assuming that they were).  So not sure if this will be problematic for Elijah 

Wrt Elijah's sleep.  He def has developmental stuff added into the mix.  Give him lots of time to practice during the day and in his crib too.  At night you may want to try a modified pd.  I did this with my ds because he fought sleep (still does  ).  I would put him down and then rest one hand on his chest and one on his legs.  No eye contact.  I would hold him until he relaxed and then he would fall asleep.
During his A times, I would make sure he got of exercise so he would sleep well (he only started to sleep well once he was mobile).  Also does Elijah have a lovie?  I gave my son lovies to cuddle when I removed his paci.  I had slept with them before I gave them to him so they had my scent on them.  It might be worth a try.  Wrt co-sleeping twins, unfortunately I don't have any btdt experience.  I know it's done when they are younger.  I guess I'd be worried that they would wake each other up rolling into each other.  Can their cribs be rolled together so that on one side they just have the slats between them?

[katie80]

Agree again with all PaulsMom has said.

I hate to say it but they may need different schedules.  Or at least until Elijah catches up on sleep a bit more. 

I would keep them on the same routine, though.  I think part of Elijah's waking still sounds UT, esp as he still does it while in bed with you. I'm sure he is tired during the day and ready to nap, but if he continues to make up for lost sleep during the day, he'll never have the drive to sleep through the night, yk?

[Beweakley]

You all are so helpful and encouraging.  I'm very grateful for your advice.

It's not really feasible for us to put them on different schedules even if it's just a few minutes apart.  I did have to do some of that early on and it just didn't work for them or us. 

 Right now they are capping their own naps.  The first one is an hour and the second one for Elijah is 45 min. to 1 hour and for Everett about 30 minutes or so.  The first nap is definitely their best nap so if I increase their A times then maybe they'll start sleeping a bit longer at nap time.  If I can work them up to the four hr A time then I think your second suggested schedule might work for us.

About SA.  Elijah's actually more clingy during the day.  He wants to climb on me, pull up on me, etc.  We've all become their little jungle gyms.  Everett will go play independently and come back over and over. but both like to wrestle and play all over us.  Both cry when you leave the room, but BT is definitely harder on Everett at the moment.  As soon as I start the descent to lay him in his crib he starts.  And because of Elijah's NWs, he's not sleeping in there with him so that might be making it worse too.  Their cribs are end to end, so when they are together they talk, laugh, and hold hands/play.  But for now I have another crib in my bedroom where Elijah is sleeping so as not to wake Everett in the MOTN.  To combat Everett's cryingat BT, I've been standing by his crib (holding Elijah) while talking to Everett and shush patting.  He sleeps on his belly or side so that's made it a bit easier to pat and calm him down. 

Tonight Elijah actually went down fairly easy.  He also immediately rolls to his belly so I rest my hand on his back until I felt him calm down and relax.   He cried a little but then fell asleep with me standing close by.  He doesn't have a lovie, but I should probably get one.  He never took a paci and seemed to care less about anything like that before, but I might need to try to find something else and try again. 

This next week or so is going to be really tough.  I've worked all week but tomorrow is my first day with students.  And next week my mom can't watch them because my dad is having knee surgery.  Not only am I having anxiety about returning to school (8 yrs. and I get that way every time) but I'm also having anxiety about them having a different sitter.  TBH I'm the one with SA right now.  It was really hard for me to go back in January after I had the boys and everyone said it would get easier, but it hasn't. I actually think its harder now because they're doing so much I don't want to miss a thing.  If my husband had a different job we might be able to afford for me to stay home, but it's just not possible right now.  The first couple of days aren't bad; it's all subsequent days that break my heart.

Well I've rambled long enough.  Im going to push their a times out by ten minutes tomorrow and see how it goes.  I'll keep y'all posted. 

[katie80]

(((Hugs))) honey, it must be hard to leave them. The one good thing about being a teacher is that you'll always have the same holidays as them, but I know you put in enough work to make up for it he rest of the time. Keep up the good work... it will be a tough week, but you'll get through it.

[PaulsMom]

Hugs Hun.  I know how you feel about leaving them.  I'm going back to work on Aug 19th and I'm not looking forward to it.  Fx that the A time increase works out for you.  Keep us posted!

[Beweakley]

I know I'm very blessed with my job and school.  I teach middle school special education with emphasis in math and severe behaviors.  I really love my job.  I love my school babies and I have a very supportive school family.  Other people aren't blessed in that way like I am.  And I'm very blessed at home.  My husband not only helps with the boys, but also helps clean the house in addition to farm chores and his own job.  My parents drive to my house to watch my boys and everyone is happy and healthy. BUT that longing to be home with my boys sometimes makes me forget all of those blessings. I survived today even though I felt like crying a few times!! Only 184 more school days to go!   

Wrt the boys schedule today.  I pushed A times up ten minutes today and both naps increased by 10-15 minutes.  And they went down very easy for both.  Elijah also went to bed without a single fuss!!! I couldn't believe it! Everett was crying but it didn't last but a little bit. 

We'll do the same tomorrow and Saturday and then I'll increase again on Sunday.  I'm hopeful for a bit ore sleep tonight.  Elijah was up quite a while last night.  It started as crying then chatter and play and ended with a lot more crying.  Of course I was trying to rest up for my first day of school and ended up with him in the bed.  Eventually he got frustrated enough with trying to get to sleep on his own that he crawled up on my chest so he could fall asleep.  But as always I'm hopeful that tonight will be different.   

[PaulsMom]

Yay, glad their naps were better.  Fx for a good night.

[katie80]

Yay, glad their naps were better.  Fx for a good night.

Ditto!

And of course our kids will always trump most of our other blessings, it sounds like you're well grounded in that. Keep us posted!

[Beweakley]

Hi all.  Its been a couple of weeks since my last post.   School has kept me busy these last few days and I just haven't had time to get on here.  The boys are doing well.  Both are cutting teeth and that has caused us to have some long nights and some wonky naps.  Since my last post, my dad had knee surgery and weve had to rely on a sitter to watch the boys.  She's been a real blessing....I was so worried because they've never had anyone but us around until know.  But she loves the boys and they are doing well with her.  She was only supposed to bewith us one wbeek, but we'll be starting week 3 this week, so im glad shes enjoying it. 

WRT sleep, they're cutting back to back teeth.  Everett is on number 5 and Elijah looks like hes got two maybe three trying to get through.  Guess they waited so long before they started that they thought they'd catch up by cutting multiples at a time. For the most part,  Everett is dealing well with it at night.  Elijah is still waking often.  It didn't help that allergies started keeping all of us up last week...coughing,  sneezing,  and snotting all over the place.  Im going to expect things to be out of sorts for a while until all of this passes.  One day I pray that Elijah will sleep through the night,  but it looks like it might be a bit before that happens. 

I would like some advice on going to one nap.  It looks like we might be entering that territory.  Everetts's fighting naps and I think its because hes not tired enough and needs more awake time.  Whats a good way for us to do that transition?

[PaulsMom]

So glad that things are working out with the sitter but boo for the teething.  Of course they all have to go through it and its painful no matter when it happens  . 

Wrt the 2-1 transition, here's some info
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)
Lots of moms do the short am nap, long pm nap but I did the opposite with my DS.  To me the long am nap worked well because I could keep on pushing out the morning A and then trying to get a CN in.  When he would have a CN, his bt was later and when he resisted the CN, we did early bt.   With the other method,  you need to cap the am nap but then have the pm nap earlier because they are not well rested from the am nap. 

HTH