4 mo starting night wakings

[elga]

Hi everybody, that's my first message to this forum...
I've troubles at night with my LO, aged 4 months, since a couple of weeks. He's on EASY routine since he was about 10 days old and everything was going very well, specially at night: he learned how  to sleep night trough when he was 2 months old and did it by hisself (we were very,very, very lucky) without needing DF (he simply closed his little mouth and turned his head away every time I tried to BF during the night, no matter the time).
2-3 weeks ago I likely unrecognized a growth sprout and did a little of mess: during the day, he was calm aand happy after he was BF, but he started to wake up 4-5 times at night. I've tried to calm him down only with PU/PD and ssh-pattern every time for at least 10 night.... At the same time I had less milk, but I didn't realized it at soon as I would have done!  So He didn't gain weight enough for 2 weeks. I subsequently increased number of BF during days and nights for about 4-5 days, but he was still hungry after he was BF at dinner and during the night.
So now I've introduced apple (according to paed) after BF him at 4 pm and I also give him an extra of formula At 8pm and as a DF at 11pm. But he still wakes up at 4.30/5 am (fussing) in the night and 6 am: he's fussing, but he would start crying if i Pick him up. If I then BF him, he sucks for 3 minutes and falls asleep. He does the same if I use a paci. I presume that is not hungry at all and I would get rid of those night wakings, but I don 't know how!

This is how our routine looks like (+ or - 30 minutes):
WU at 730 am
E at 8 (BF)
A till 930
S till 10.40/10.50
A till 1130-12

E at 12 (BF)
A till 14
S till 1530

E at 16 (BF + apple)
A till 1750
S 18-1830 Catnap
A till 19
Bath time

E somewhere between 730-8 pm  (BF + 100 ml formula)
DF at 11  (formula, 100 ml)
BF at 6 am and then  at 8, like top up feeding (I've always  done this way since he slept night through).
 He is an almost independent sleeper: I can Put him down when he is awake, but I still need to stay with him till he reaches step 3 of sleeping. Re pacifier, he uses it to calm himself and fall asleep, but  lost it in a bit when he sleeps.

Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Elga

[Layla]

Hi Elga and welcome to the BW!

I wonder if the introduction of solids and formula is making him feel uncomfortable and as a result causing the fussiness/extra wake ups

Also it sounds like the paci is a bit of a prop as in your post you mentioned that if you give him the paci, he'll suck for 3 mins and then goes back to sleep.  During the day, do you find that you have to pop in the paci in between the sleep cycles to get him to sleep longer?

I would also try no DF for about 3-4 days as that can sometimes affect how they sleep at night and it seems like he was sleeping through before without the DF and it doesn't seem to help now, if you know what I mean.

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Thanks for your reply!
I must admit I thought paci to play as a pop, specially when the wakings started; that's was why I've tried for about 10 days not to feed him nor to give him paci at night, but then i didn't obtain anything, he was loosing weight, I get confused and started to use paci a bit more... You're probably right!
I used it when he's really uncomfortable and to put him down, but I don't give him when he looses it and he's already calm.
By the way, I've just finished to PD for morning nap without using paci: it took half an hour, but I got it!!!
I will try not to give him DF and let you know.
Have a good day,
Elga

[Layla]

Wow!!! That's awesome news . DD2 had a paci and around 4 months (which is when I decided to sleep train her as we had all sorts of sleep problems at night and during the day) and I just stopped giving to her because she wanted it for all night wakings and wouldn't sleep past 45mins during the day without needing it again. It was a rough couple of weeks but we were paci free and I never looked back .

Let me know how things are going

[elga]

Dear Layla,
I did it again: put him to sleep without paci in 40 minutes... But I think the hardest part will came with the night!
If you have time, I've two more questions:
- this night I'll try not to give him DF; what if he wakes up say at 2 am?? It would be 6 hours since last fed. Maybe I could try first to calm him and then give him breast if he doesn't stop? How long after? 1 hr? And the problem would be that I dont't know if I have milk enough to give Him a full feed, so It would be difficult for me to interpretate the next waking.
- I' ve noticed that he took about 10 minutes before to be calm without paci, during which I need to put him down a lot because is arching and fighting. After this time, He would calm himself very quickly while I hold him, he does his type of mantra, and fall almost asleep. If I put him down while he's doing mantra, he cry for sure and I need to start again. How long can I hold him before put him down? Can I teach him gradualy to go to bed indipendently and without paci? Do I need to do both the things together at the same time?
Thanks,
Elga

[Layla]

- this night I'll try not to give him DF; what if he wakes up say at 2 am?? It would be 6 hours since last fed. Maybe I could try first to calm him and then give him breast if he doesn't stop? How long after? 1 hr? And the problem would be that I dont't know if I have milk enough to give Him a full feed, so It would be difficult for me to interpretate the next waking.

I would think he might be hungry after 6 hrs of sleep but if you want to try and settle him first, then try and if he isn't settling then give him a feed. In regards to your milk supply, your body will produce what the baby demands and the prolactin levels are highest in the middle of the night, so if are concerned about your milk supply, I would look at feeding from the breast at every feed (especially at night) as supplementing can affect your supply. Give him the both breasts at this feed and go back to offering the 1st one again (so left, right and then left again). Do you feel the letdown when you feed?

- I' ve noticed that he took about 10 minutes before to be calm without paci, during which I need to put him down a lot because is arching and fighting. After this time, He would calm himself very quickly while I hold him, he does his type of mantra, and fall almost asleep. If I put him down while he's doing mantra, he cry for sure and I need to start again. How long can I hold him before put him down? Can I teach him gradualy to go to bed indipendently and without paci? Do I need to do both the things together at the same time?

The arching and fighting could be a sign that he's ready for bed and getting tired. If he's doing mantra cry, you don't need to interfere and hold him. I would leave him to try and settle on his own if he's mantra crying (which it sounds like he was doing). Also some babies find PU/PD too stimulating and I would probably suggest the shh/pat method first. So put him in the cot and try and settle him by rubbing his back or tummy or patting his thighs rather than picking him up. Even if he's crying, you're there with him so he's just learning how to self settle. Once he's calming down, you could stop the patting and just shush or the other way around... see what he is responding best to. I think you might as well do the whole thing at once.

Let me know how you go with the rest of your day

[elga]

Dear Layla,
We got some truble the past night because without his DF he woke up at 1 am, and then at 3.30, when he have been crying for 40 minutes (he always started again when i put him down during lantra crying, he was really upset!). after 40 min my husband decided to give him his paci, because we lived in an apt ( abd, in my opinion, because he can't cope with shouting child).The day went on quite well: it always took 1 1/2 hr to put him to bed without paci, but afternoon nap was a little disaster (he slept for 45 min) and I needed to stop PU/PD after 30min of uninterrupted crying... He eventually stopped when i opend the door and went out for trekking. Anyway, I didn't give him the paci for the all day long!
Now he's night and my plans are:
- DF because he's really gaining weight, and he needs more kcal. Moreover, he wakes a lot anyway without DF
- try not to use paci in the night as well. I'm not sure it's really a bit of prop: during the day he doesn't use it to sleep longer, and he would lose it in a bit after he became calm. He also tend to suck whatever he can and whenever it's possible.

Do you think I can hold him a bit longer, say till he is almost asleep, If he start doing mantra crying when i have in my arms? I would slowly stretch in the time in my arms so to PD when he's awake... I can't understand when is the correct time and setting to put down during mantra crying.
Thanks,elga

[Layla]

Yes, you can hold him until he's really drowsy but the idea is to put him down before he is asleep so that he completes that on his own (be able to put himself to sleep). During matra crying, you're not really supposed to interfere at all and just let him be because that is his way of learning how to self soothe.

Sorry to hear you had a rough night (again). If the DF worked for you and you think he was waking less with it, then go back to giving the DF. Try that for 3-4 days to see if it is effective

Does he have access to his hands at all... he might find that soothing (sucking his fist?)

Edit to add: I've attached some links for you to look through which might help you
What’s a mantra cry?
10 reasons (other than hunger) a baby can wake at night
How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

Also take a look at the FAQ sections of the night waking, pu/pd and naps boards if you're after any other information (naps, length of, how much sleep, etc...)

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Many thanks for your advises!
My follow up is that ours night wakings are near to a small improvement! He always wakes up 3 times: 1.30; 3.30-4; 6. The first one would be at 1.30-2 am only if I give him my milk as DF (in that caase ihe  need to be BF again for at least 10 full minutes!), otherwise he can sleep through 3.30-4am, when I Give him a bottle (100 cc) as a DF. The third one is around 6.30, and I think that is could be his "good morning everybody! ", Because he would wake up at the same time, no matter if BF or FF. We have managed to put him back to sleep with a bit of PU/pd at 6 am, but if he goes near to 7 am, I've tried to BF him directly and put him back in his crib and let play him on his own for 1/2 hr, than start the morning routine. And that's worked fine.
This past night I've realized that when i BF at 11 o' clock , then at ~ 3.30am he was upside down in his crib and cried much lower: so, I PU one time, immediately PD 'cause he arched and simply pressed gently on his chest and arms, rolling him for a while: I deeply  slept in no more than 3 minutes. I wonder if he woke up just because he went in a different position in the crib and because he maybe had some jolts....
Re naps: I must say he sleep no more than 30-40 min most of the times. I've tried pressure at the jolts, took an extra 40 minutes to back him to sleep, but then he slept for 50 minutes more! I' ll keep trying this way! I've just experience difficulties when he completely wake up, because he want to cling to my arm with his  legs and to suck all my hand...this can upset him and eventually wake up. I don't know how to address to this. He use both his thumbs to settle himself, but if he found my hand, he prefer it....
Thank a lot,
Elga

[elga]

Dear Layla,
I'd like to share with you my/our first success: the past night went on vero well!
He Folt asleep indipendently, DF at 11, WU at 3.30-4 don't recall it, breasfed him and PD almost asleep, WU at 5.30 but he arranged to do everuthing on his own (!!!!) in few minutes, WU again at 6,30, simply calmed in his crib without feeding him and eventually WU at 8.30!!! I was so surprised when I looked at the hour!
Now I don't know if he need to WU every morning at 830, but I would really appreciate it,  of course!
I've also manged to stretch out the naps a bit, using press at jolts: it still doesn't work properly, because he Wakes up and needs half an hour to start again with the nap, but never mind.
I let you know!
Elga

[Layla]

Awesome update  . I am about to go to bed but Will come back tomorrow morning to talk about naps and trying to maintain routine while sleep training...but thank you so much for the update...you're doing a great thing teaching your lo independent sleep
 

[Layla]

Hi Elga,

So with regards to naps, try to stick to the schedule as much as possible but obviously if he's up early from the nap and you can't resettle, then offer the next nap a little earlier. Some babies can do full A time on just 45mins but if the nap is only 30 mins long, then I would probably do 30mins earlier rather than stretch him out the full 2 hrs.

Also with the morning wake up... I wake mine up by 7.30, if she's not awake by that time so that I can keep her routine in line. For us it is important because we have school runs and I need to make sure she has her pm nap by 3pm. Obviously since he's sleep training, he would have needed to sleep in a little... see how you go with naps today but you might find once his nights are better (less wake ups), he will start to wake earlier if well rested from a good night sleep. If you do want him to wake later, we'll have to work on pushing the day forward but I would probably not worry about that now and work on extending his naps.

Let me know how you go today

[elga]

Hi Layla,
  Thanks for your advices!
i've spent the last 2 days traying to extend the naps using pressure at joilts.  He wakes up after 25 min sharply, still catches my arm to suck it, but at least now I need about 10 min to send him back to sleep, with just 1-2 PU/PD.  this afternoon he slept an extra half an hour for the first time.
I'm not sure if I need to stretch out the A (2 hr): he's 5 m in few days, but first cues of  tiredness just start after 2 hr!
I've changed a bit WU time, because he spontaneously Wu at 6.45. Re NW: with the formula DF at 1030pm, he wakes up at 3.45 to be breastfed, than at 5, but just because he moves around the crib and I put him back in few seconds, and at 6.45. I feed him again in my bed and he sleep till 8. Could it be a kind of nap? I don't know what to do: do I need need to wake him up and start the day? Or just let him sleep? Maybe I should try to feed him not in the bed and see what he does....I'm so tired!
He will go to the nursery in October, so he would  necessary wake up at7...
thanks,
Have a good day,
Elga

[Layla]

Hi Elga, thanks for the update. Would you be able to post what your day looks like now (with naps, etc...). If he's sleeping in till 8am and you need him to start waking up at 7 (for nursery), I would probably wake him at 7.30 for about 2 weeks before he is due to start at nursery and keep that wake up for a week and then again adjust his wake up time to 7am about a week before he is due to start. If you are happy with the 8am wake up for now, that is fine. But if you post your EAS, we can have a look at whether A times need to be adjusted anywhere.

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Here is our yesterday routine, that I think is almost manual sticked...
Wu 7.30am
E 7.30am (almost a fill up one, I suppose: I 've BF him at 5.45!!!)
A till 9
S till 1040 (including 10 min of ssh/pat after w2s)
E 1130
A till 1.30
S till 3
E ar 3 ish (BF + apple) he required both breast !
A till 5.30 pm (my fault, I was shopping with mum and the child....)
Wind down and bath routine at 7
E 730 (twice from both breast, and so I assumed he's on a sprout or I've less milk again)
S at 815 (immediately as I P him down)
DF at 22.30 ( formula, 150 ml)
WU at 2.20, tried invane to resettle him, so BF
WU at 530, the same as above
Wu happily at 7, started the day. A bit ofbreast top up at 8

Now the morning has been a bit chaotic, because he required to be fed at 1030 then 14, that are not the normal eating  times at all.., he took a  20 min short nap at 9, tried to resettle till 10 than I gave up and fed him at 1030.
I've put him back to sleep at 1 pm, everything went well for 25 min, then he wu twice in 20 minutes again. I stayed with him and pressed successfully  at jolts for both the times, but after 5 minutes since last one he WU again just screaming. I first thought it was because of tiredness or fright, but he didn't look for his thumbs as he usually does and he was crying with tears, higher and higher.... He eventually stopped at my breast,  took a full meal and felt asleep. Where do you think I did it wrong?
Could it really be that he needs more milk for a few days again, as in a growth sprout?
And what about timing for today? He was supposed to eat at 2.30-3 pm!!! Of course, I don't wake him up while he's sleeping to feed him, but should I give him milk + apple when he spontaneously wu later?
Today is gonna be a bad day, I must say!