4 mo starting night wakings

[elga]

Hi everybody, that's my first message to this forum...
I've troubles at night with my LO, aged 4 months, since a couple of weeks. He's on EASY routine since he was about 10 days old and everything was going very well, specially at night: he learned how  to sleep night trough when he was 2 months old and did it by hisself (we were very,very, very lucky) without needing DF (he simply closed his little mouth and turned his head away every time I tried to BF during the night, no matter the time).
2-3 weeks ago I likely unrecognized a growth sprout and did a little of mess: during the day, he was calm aand happy after he was BF, but he started to wake up 4-5 times at night. I've tried to calm him down only with PU/PD and ssh-pattern every time for at least 10 night.... At the same time I had less milk, but I didn't realized it at soon as I would have done!  So He didn't gain weight enough for 2 weeks. I subsequently increased number of BF during days and nights for about 4-5 days, but he was still hungry after he was BF at dinner and during the night.
So now I've introduced apple (according to paed) after BF him at 4 pm and I also give him an extra of formula At 8pm and as a DF at 11pm. But he still wakes up at 4.30/5 am (fussing) in the night and 6 am: he's fussing, but he would start crying if i Pick him up. If I then BF him, he sucks for 3 minutes and falls asleep. He does the same if I use a paci. I presume that is not hungry at all and I would get rid of those night wakings, but I don 't know how!

This is how our routine looks like (+ or - 30 minutes):
WU at 730 am
E at 8 (BF)
A till 930
S till 10.40/10.50
A till 1130-12

E at 12 (BF)
A till 14
S till 1530

E at 16 (BF + apple)
A till 1750
S 18-1830 Catnap
A till 19
Bath time

E somewhere between 730-8 pm  (BF + 100 ml formula)
DF at 11  (formula, 100 ml)
BF at 6 am and then  at 8, like top up feeding (I've always  done this way since he slept night through).
 He is an almost independent sleeper: I can Put him down when he is awake, but I still need to stay with him till he reaches step 3 of sleeping. Re pacifier, he uses it to calm himself and fall asleep, but  lost it in a bit when he sleeps.

Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Elga

[Layla]

Hi Elga and welcome to the BW!

I wonder if the introduction of solids and formula is making him feel uncomfortable and as a result causing the fussiness/extra wake ups

Also it sounds like the paci is a bit of a prop as in your post you mentioned that if you give him the paci, he'll suck for 3 mins and then goes back to sleep.  During the day, do you find that you have to pop in the paci in between the sleep cycles to get him to sleep longer?

I would also try no DF for about 3-4 days as that can sometimes affect how they sleep at night and it seems like he was sleeping through before without the DF and it doesn't seem to help now, if you know what I mean.

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Thanks for your reply!
I must admit I thought paci to play as a pop, specially when the wakings started; that's was why I've tried for about 10 days not to feed him nor to give him paci at night, but then i didn't obtain anything, he was loosing weight, I get confused and started to use paci a bit more... You're probably right!
I used it when he's really uncomfortable and to put him down, but I don't give him when he looses it and he's already calm.
By the way, I've just finished to PD for morning nap without using paci: it took half an hour, but I got it!!!
I will try not to give him DF and let you know.
Have a good day,
Elga

[Layla]

Wow!!! That's awesome news . DD2 had a paci and around 4 months (which is when I decided to sleep train her as we had all sorts of sleep problems at night and during the day) and I just stopped giving to her because she wanted it for all night wakings and wouldn't sleep past 45mins during the day without needing it again. It was a rough couple of weeks but we were paci free and I never looked back .

Let me know how things are going

[elga]

Dear Layla,
I did it again: put him to sleep without paci in 40 minutes... But I think the hardest part will came with the night!
If you have time, I've two more questions:
- this night I'll try not to give him DF; what if he wakes up say at 2 am?? It would be 6 hours since last fed. Maybe I could try first to calm him and then give him breast if he doesn't stop? How long after? 1 hr? And the problem would be that I dont't know if I have milk enough to give Him a full feed, so It would be difficult for me to interpretate the next waking.
- I' ve noticed that he took about 10 minutes before to be calm without paci, during which I need to put him down a lot because is arching and fighting. After this time, He would calm himself very quickly while I hold him, he does his type of mantra, and fall almost asleep. If I put him down while he's doing mantra, he cry for sure and I need to start again. How long can I hold him before put him down? Can I teach him gradualy to go to bed indipendently and without paci? Do I need to do both the things together at the same time?
Thanks,
Elga

[Layla]

- this night I'll try not to give him DF; what if he wakes up say at 2 am?? It would be 6 hours since last fed. Maybe I could try first to calm him and then give him breast if he doesn't stop? How long after? 1 hr? And the problem would be that I dont't know if I have milk enough to give Him a full feed, so It would be difficult for me to interpretate the next waking.

I would think he might be hungry after 6 hrs of sleep but if you want to try and settle him first, then try and if he isn't settling then give him a feed. In regards to your milk supply, your body will produce what the baby demands and the prolactin levels are highest in the middle of the night, so if are concerned about your milk supply, I would look at feeding from the breast at every feed (especially at night) as supplementing can affect your supply. Give him the both breasts at this feed and go back to offering the 1st one again (so left, right and then left again). Do you feel the letdown when you feed?

- I' ve noticed that he took about 10 minutes before to be calm without paci, during which I need to put him down a lot because is arching and fighting. After this time, He would calm himself very quickly while I hold him, he does his type of mantra, and fall almost asleep. If I put him down while he's doing mantra, he cry for sure and I need to start again. How long can I hold him before put him down? Can I teach him gradualy to go to bed indipendently and without paci? Do I need to do both the things together at the same time?

The arching and fighting could be a sign that he's ready for bed and getting tired. If he's doing mantra cry, you don't need to interfere and hold him. I would leave him to try and settle on his own if he's mantra crying (which it sounds like he was doing). Also some babies find PU/PD too stimulating and I would probably suggest the shh/pat method first. So put him in the cot and try and settle him by rubbing his back or tummy or patting his thighs rather than picking him up. Even if he's crying, you're there with him so he's just learning how to self settle. Once he's calming down, you could stop the patting and just shush or the other way around... see what he is responding best to. I think you might as well do the whole thing at once.

Let me know how you go with the rest of your day

[elga]

Dear Layla,
We got some truble the past night because without his DF he woke up at 1 am, and then at 3.30, when he have been crying for 40 minutes (he always started again when i put him down during lantra crying, he was really upset!). after 40 min my husband decided to give him his paci, because we lived in an apt ( abd, in my opinion, because he can't cope with shouting child).The day went on quite well: it always took 1 1/2 hr to put him to bed without paci, but afternoon nap was a little disaster (he slept for 45 min) and I needed to stop PU/PD after 30min of uninterrupted crying... He eventually stopped when i opend the door and went out for trekking. Anyway, I didn't give him the paci for the all day long!
Now he's night and my plans are:
- DF because he's really gaining weight, and he needs more kcal. Moreover, he wakes a lot anyway without DF
- try not to use paci in the night as well. I'm not sure it's really a bit of prop: during the day he doesn't use it to sleep longer, and he would lose it in a bit after he became calm. He also tend to suck whatever he can and whenever it's possible.

Do you think I can hold him a bit longer, say till he is almost asleep, If he start doing mantra crying when i have in my arms? I would slowly stretch in the time in my arms so to PD when he's awake... I can't understand when is the correct time and setting to put down during mantra crying.
Thanks,elga

[Layla]

Yes, you can hold him until he's really drowsy but the idea is to put him down before he is asleep so that he completes that on his own (be able to put himself to sleep). During matra crying, you're not really supposed to interfere at all and just let him be because that is his way of learning how to self soothe.

Sorry to hear you had a rough night (again). If the DF worked for you and you think he was waking less with it, then go back to giving the DF. Try that for 3-4 days to see if it is effective

Does he have access to his hands at all... he might find that soothing (sucking his fist?)

Edit to add: I've attached some links for you to look through which might help you
What’s a mantra cry?
10 reasons (other than hunger) a baby can wake at night
How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

Also take a look at the FAQ sections of the night waking, pu/pd and naps boards if you're after any other information (naps, length of, how much sleep, etc...)

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Many thanks for your advises!
My follow up is that ours night wakings are near to a small improvement! He always wakes up 3 times: 1.30; 3.30-4; 6. The first one would be at 1.30-2 am only if I give him my milk as DF (in that caase ihe  need to be BF again for at least 10 full minutes!), otherwise he can sleep through 3.30-4am, when I Give him a bottle (100 cc) as a DF. The third one is around 6.30, and I think that is could be his "good morning everybody! ", Because he would wake up at the same time, no matter if BF or FF. We have managed to put him back to sleep with a bit of PU/pd at 6 am, but if he goes near to 7 am, I've tried to BF him directly and put him back in his crib and let play him on his own for 1/2 hr, than start the morning routine. And that's worked fine.
This past night I've realized that when i BF at 11 o' clock , then at ~ 3.30am he was upside down in his crib and cried much lower: so, I PU one time, immediately PD 'cause he arched and simply pressed gently on his chest and arms, rolling him for a while: I deeply  slept in no more than 3 minutes. I wonder if he woke up just because he went in a different position in the crib and because he maybe had some jolts....
Re naps: I must say he sleep no more than 30-40 min most of the times. I've tried pressure at the jolts, took an extra 40 minutes to back him to sleep, but then he slept for 50 minutes more! I' ll keep trying this way! I've just experience difficulties when he completely wake up, because he want to cling to my arm with his  legs and to suck all my hand...this can upset him and eventually wake up. I don't know how to address to this. He use both his thumbs to settle himself, but if he found my hand, he prefer it....
Thank a lot,
Elga

[elga]

Dear Layla,
I'd like to share with you my/our first success: the past night went on vero well!
He Folt asleep indipendently, DF at 11, WU at 3.30-4 don't recall it, breasfed him and PD almost asleep, WU at 5.30 but he arranged to do everuthing on his own (!!!!) in few minutes, WU again at 6,30, simply calmed in his crib without feeding him and eventually WU at 8.30!!! I was so surprised when I looked at the hour!
Now I don't know if he need to WU every morning at 830, but I would really appreciate it,  of course!
I've also manged to stretch out the naps a bit, using press at jolts: it still doesn't work properly, because he Wakes up and needs half an hour to start again with the nap, but never mind.
I let you know!
Elga

[Layla]

Awesome update  . I am about to go to bed but Will come back tomorrow morning to talk about naps and trying to maintain routine while sleep training...but thank you so much for the update...you're doing a great thing teaching your lo independent sleep
 

[Layla]

Hi Elga,

So with regards to naps, try to stick to the schedule as much as possible but obviously if he's up early from the nap and you can't resettle, then offer the next nap a little earlier. Some babies can do full A time on just 45mins but if the nap is only 30 mins long, then I would probably do 30mins earlier rather than stretch him out the full 2 hrs.

Also with the morning wake up... I wake mine up by 7.30, if she's not awake by that time so that I can keep her routine in line. For us it is important because we have school runs and I need to make sure she has her pm nap by 3pm. Obviously since he's sleep training, he would have needed to sleep in a little... see how you go with naps today but you might find once his nights are better (less wake ups), he will start to wake earlier if well rested from a good night sleep. If you do want him to wake later, we'll have to work on pushing the day forward but I would probably not worry about that now and work on extending his naps.

Let me know how you go today

[elga]

Hi Layla,
  Thanks for your advices!
i've spent the last 2 days traying to extend the naps using pressure at joilts.  He wakes up after 25 min sharply, still catches my arm to suck it, but at least now I need about 10 min to send him back to sleep, with just 1-2 PU/PD.  this afternoon he slept an extra half an hour for the first time.
I'm not sure if I need to stretch out the A (2 hr): he's 5 m in few days, but first cues of  tiredness just start after 2 hr!
I've changed a bit WU time, because he spontaneously Wu at 6.45. Re NW: with the formula DF at 1030pm, he wakes up at 3.45 to be breastfed, than at 5, but just because he moves around the crib and I put him back in few seconds, and at 6.45. I feed him again in my bed and he sleep till 8. Could it be a kind of nap? I don't know what to do: do I need need to wake him up and start the day? Or just let him sleep? Maybe I should try to feed him not in the bed and see what he does....I'm so tired!
He will go to the nursery in October, so he would  necessary wake up at7...
thanks,
Have a good day,
Elga

[Layla]

Hi Elga, thanks for the update. Would you be able to post what your day looks like now (with naps, etc...). If he's sleeping in till 8am and you need him to start waking up at 7 (for nursery), I would probably wake him at 7.30 for about 2 weeks before he is due to start at nursery and keep that wake up for a week and then again adjust his wake up time to 7am about a week before he is due to start. If you are happy with the 8am wake up for now, that is fine. But if you post your EAS, we can have a look at whether A times need to be adjusted anywhere.

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Here is our yesterday routine, that I think is almost manual sticked...
Wu 7.30am
E 7.30am (almost a fill up one, I suppose: I 've BF him at 5.45!!!)
A till 9
S till 1040 (including 10 min of ssh/pat after w2s)
E 1130
A till 1.30
S till 3
E ar 3 ish (BF + apple) he required both breast !
A till 5.30 pm (my fault, I was shopping with mum and the child....)
Wind down and bath routine at 7
E 730 (twice from both breast, and so I assumed he's on a sprout or I've less milk again)
S at 815 (immediately as I P him down)
DF at 22.30 ( formula, 150 ml)
WU at 2.20, tried invane to resettle him, so BF
WU at 530, the same as above
Wu happily at 7, started the day. A bit ofbreast top up at 8

Now the morning has been a bit chaotic, because he required to be fed at 1030 then 14, that are not the normal eating  times at all.., he took a  20 min short nap at 9, tried to resettle till 10 than I gave up and fed him at 1030.
I've put him back to sleep at 1 pm, everything went well for 25 min, then he wu twice in 20 minutes again. I stayed with him and pressed successfully  at jolts for both the times, but after 5 minutes since last one he WU again just screaming. I first thought it was because of tiredness or fright, but he didn't look for his thumbs as he usually does and he was crying with tears, higher and higher.... He eventually stopped at my breast,  took a full meal and felt asleep. Where do you think I did it wrong?
Could it really be that he needs more milk for a few days again, as in a growth sprout?
And what about timing for today? He was supposed to eat at 2.30-3 pm!!! Of course, I don't wake him up while he's sleeping to feed him, but should I give him milk + apple when he spontaneously wu later?
Today is gonna be a bad day, I must say!

[Layla]

Now the morning has been a bit chaotic, because he required to be fed at 1030 then 14, that are not the normal eating  times at all.., he took a  20 min short nap at 9, tried to resettle till 10 than I gave up and fed him at 1030.
I've put him back to sleep at 1 pm, everything went well for 25 min, then he wu twice in 20 minutes again. I stayed with him and pressed successfully  at jolts for both the times, but after 5 minutes since last one he WU again just screaming. I first thought it was because of tiredness or fright, but he didn't look for his thumbs as he usually does and he was crying with tears, higher and higher.... He eventually stopped at my breast,  took a full meal and felt asleep. Where do you think I did it wrong?
Could it really be that he needs more milk for a few days again, as in a growth sprout?
And what about timing for today? He was supposed to eat at 2.30-3 pm!!! Of course, I don't wake him up while he's sleeping to feed him, but should I give him milk + apple when he spontaneously wu later?

No, I don't think the short nap had anything to do with your milk supply. I am noticing that you're doing set nap times so I would be careful with that. What I mean by that is that at 4 months, he should only really be awake for around 2hrs so if he's had a short morning nap, I would aim at putting him to bed for the afternoon nap around 11.30am and then do the catnap earlier too. The same for the day before, where you had A time of just 1.5hrs in the morning and then 3hrs before afternoon nap and it doesn't look like there was a catnap (shopping?). So I think the short morning nap and then waking up crying from the short afternoon nap would have been due to overtiredness.

Because he is breastfed, it is OK to feed him every 3.5hrs (this is what I do with mine) and aim for him to go back to sleep within 2 hrs of being awake. And no, I would not be waking up just to feed him, especially if it took you a long time to put him down for a nap.

With regards to the morning feed, I do the same with mine... she will have an early morning feed around 4-5am and then I do another feed when she wakes up (which can be anywhere from 6-7am).

[elga]

Thanks Layla!
I'll try to stick more to the timetable!
May I ask you about naps? I've noticed that when he wakes up and find me along his bed just trying to press at him, he simply would have fun even if he yawns. I can calm him down one or two times, lead him to start sleeping again for few minute more, but then he gets upset if I don't pick him up. Once up, if i pd the second he stop crying, i need to continue doing pu/pd and eventually going on for more then 20min. If I hold him just a little more and pd when he's on stage 2 of sleep, say 1 or 2 minutes more, he would go down and fall asleep without other support. My questions is: by holding for 1-2 minutes,  am I giving to him a kind of prop?
And would him expect to find me along his bed anytime he would wake up???
I really appreciate you find time, energy and the good will to reply to me and to a lot of other mums! You give a lot of support! Thanks for your time!

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Here nights  have become  really a nightmare! No idea where i do it wrong, but now this lovely child he's waking up every 2hr. I Bf him, assuming it's cause of the milk supply, then pd and have a crying child again, who can't soothe by himself, hill I PU. And he requires a lot of time even after my milk.. I can pd quite well during the morning, but at night nothing works properly.
I'm so scared to create new props that I try to pd the second he stop crying/ eating and he wu more. Sshh-pat in the crib would take half an hour to be effective. My neighbours just grumble, my hub says to come back to the paci, my parents that he's not a lovely child at all, that's not true!
.i'de like to give up with everything I believe in and put him next to me in my bed with any kind of paci in mouth. Above all because I'm alone doing all this work night and daylong.
Re naps: I've extended two naps out of 6 in 2 days.
I now that I should be at home alsobfor the catnaps as well, but here I'm really without a person to share the work with  (everybody working) and time from 5 to 6.30 pm is the only I have to do something different Fromm sshh or pu-pd.
could you give me any suggestions?
Thanks,
Elga

[Layla]

It sounds like he is missing his catnap often because you are not at home, is that right? You don't have to stay home for the catnap but if you're out and about, can you try and put him to sleep in the pram? He really needs to have his catnap still, some LOs don't give up the catnap until 8 months or so. I would probably not hold him as it might start to become a prop. Could you just use the shh/pat method? pu/pd is the last resort. Could you sit by the cot and start shushing to help him through the light phase?

Hugs for the nightwakings. It must be really hard but you need to be consistent with naps and night sleep and if he's had a bad nap day, he really needs to be going to sleep early for the night. Shh/pat may well take 30mins but it will either be now or later that you'll have to sleep train him.

I think in your case, consistency is the key. Don't keep him up any longer than 2 hrs and make sure he's having the 3rd nap. Could you do outings between naps? I know its not long with the feeding but you can squeeze in 1 hr of walking around and just make sure you're back in time for him to be in bed by the 2hr window. Earlier bedtime is really important if he hasn't had a good sleep during the day. My DD some days takes some shocking naps and last night I put her down at 6pm for the night. She woke at 5.30 and I fed her and back to bed and she slept till 7am. This morning, her am nap was 1.5hrs, so I really really believe in earlier bedtime to help them catch up on sleep. If he's chronically overtired (not happy, crying, hyper), an earlier bedtime for a couple of days would help.

[elga]

Hi Layla and many thanks.
No, I always give him his catnap, wherever I am. And it's not difficult for him to be pd in his pram when we are out. When i'm out whit him, I look for tiredness cues very often, stay in a quite place even before he start to yawn , and make PU pd twice, and that's all: he would be down and close his eyes in few second. I don't roll him nor I walk to put him to sleep. I simply stand until he' s sleeping and then go at home. He wu after 30 min, that I was think is enough for catnap at 5.30 or 6 pm. Only onceci wasnlate" because I let him outside a shop with my dad while I was trying a dress on. It's sound like I go with him in the shopping centres every time, but it's not the case:due to the very hot summer here in Italy, we are now in a very very small village in mountain,not coas at all, only pines, fresh air and fresh desserts from the bakery....
PU pd works quicker than shhh; with sshh is crying and crying, fighting my arms to call me and put both his arm up to me, like to say: please, I'm here, could you just PU for a while? It's ok doing it trying again with it in the morning, but I feel not comfortable doing it at night, because at night I simply think: "well, now he's going on and on, and I'm not able to calm him." Maybe it.s a little bit a vicious circle at night? 
Is it totally wrong using PU-pd?
Anyway, I go for earlier bt, for sure, if he hasn't good naps!
Thanks for your reply!

[Layla]

If pu/pd is working better than shh/pat, then stick to it and it doesn't matter even if you are out and about shopping, as long as he manages to get some sleep in the pram. - 30mins is ok for a catnap. Keep a track of how long he is awake for though and yes, earlier bedtime if naps are not going well. Let me know how things are going but try and be consistent with how you approach him at night. If pu/pd seems to settle him better at night, do the same thing. Is he in the same room as you and DH at night? Has he been putting on weight?

[elga]

Yes for both of your  questions: he's sleeping into his own crib, but next to my bed (need to move in another room?), and yes he gains weight well (~ 250 gr this week). I sometimes think my supply is not enough and he has GS because of the great weight gain in few days and because he had a couple of scarce and green poos...

[Layla]

You only move him into his own room if you are comfortable but SIDS does recommend that they are in the same room for min 6 months (i think). Having said that, I just recently (2 weeks ago) moved my LO into her own room because DH is a really noisy sleeper and mine kept waking up and the first night she slept all the way till 4am (first time she did that). She's waking now twice at night and I believe I was responding too soon at times when she was in our room...but I won't tell you to move him out, you do that when you're ready . It doesn't sound like there is a supply issue if he's putting on weight. So try and feed him at 3.5hr intervals (breastfed babies don't usually go to 4hrs until later, when solids are introduced) and try and watch how long you keep him awake for (2hrs is the av A time for his age) and put him to bed earlier if he's not had a good nap day to stop him from getting overtired. Try and aim for morning and pm nap to be in the cot as otherwise it is likely he will have a shorter nap and it is absolutely OK that the catnap is in the pram . Did you want to post what his last couple of days have been like?

[elga]

Can't recall the whole  yesterday's routine, except that he went down at 8, Df at 1030, wiu at 1240, tried to calm him, but i think i tried less then i would have hoped. BF somewhere between 1250-1, WU again at 430, BF and then Wu at 645. i've tried not to fed him, but it was impossible, so i've decided to start the day. He just took a bit of BM, Then he played on his own for half an hr, then with me in my bed till 8, when I decided to top up the feed. That wasn't a good idea, because he felt asleep after his meal, no way to wake him again. So:
E at 8
S 8-915
A till 1030
E at 1O45 (still I don't know why.... When I do top up, do I start to count 4 hr  from the first meal or the last one?)
A till 12.15
S at 1230 till 1, then PU/pd and sshh till 2 with a pause in the middle. S from 2.10 till 240, then again PU/pd one or two times and back to sleep till 315
E at 340
A till 5
Catnap at 5 for 40 min
Bath at 7
E at 730
S at 8
He has just wu now 9 pm, I think because he moved in his crib, like he was starting a new sleeping cycle just when I entered the room... Tried with ssh, got an upset kid, PU/pd once and that's all for now.
What you think?

[Layla]

I really think consistency with regards to wake up time will help so if it were me, I would have accepted 6:45am as a wake up time and done my E then (or at 7am) and hold him off until 9am for morning nap and go from there. Try not to do the "top up" feed, because he could be snacking then for his next meal. The only time I do a top up is if mine wakes at say 5-5.30am and I give her a feed and then do a top up feed when she wakes up for good (be it 6.30/7am) and then count my 3.5hrs from that time and I also do a feed just after catnap and a final top up feed just before bedtime.

Also I noticed his A time before 2nd nap was 3 hrs which is quiet long for his age

[elga]

Dear Layla,
A nice update I'd share with you: today has been quite a good one!
At night he wu twice : 1.50 and 6!!!!  That allowed me to breastfed him, put him back straight  to sleep again and wake him up again at 7.30 (he did it by hisself, actually).
So   our routine has been like this:
E 150
E 615
E 740
A till 925
S at 940  till 1015, then awake and calm in his bed for 15 minute , then try to settle till 1050 and desisted (I could'nt had been along him when he started moving because my DH joined us for the w-end, knocking at the door exactly when he opened his eyes and looked for me..)
E at 1120
A till 1215
S at 1240 till 13.10 then 14-15
E at 1530 (BM+ fruits)
A till 4.30 
Tried to shift catnap at 4.30-4.40 because of the long gap at the previous nap, but he wasn't tired at all and refused to go to sleep till 5.30.
E at 1920, more or less
A till 1940
S from 1950. He needed 2 PU-PD, then he was able to go down awake and fall asleep with just my hand on his chest and 15 minutes of shhh.
Fingers crossed for the night!
I think I misanderstood the "rules" before: i''ve always started the routine for nap and BT ~2 hr after the activity time. Today I've tried to start it before, so that he would have been really sleeping after 2 hr. it worked. Did I do right?
Thanks again for your time! Really a great help and solace!

[Layla]

Fantastic update Elga!!! Yes, he needs to be in the cot by 2 hrs (if he's close to 5 months, he may be able to do anywhere from 2-2.5hrs but the morning A time is usually the shortest)... I am sorry I didn't explain that earlier to you but if he's in the cot before he's overtired then it will be much easier for him to settle and easier for you to extend his nap (if he needs it!). Also for the catnap, I noticed you were trying to put him down at 4.30pm but he slept until 3pm (well he had a broken afternoon nap which ended at 3pm) so that is why he probably wasn't tired at 4.30pm and didn't go down until 5.30pm. Before the catnap, our A time is a little longer than other times and that is about right

And YAY to a great night!!! Fingers crossed for a good nap day and let me know you go 

[elga]

Maybe I didn't crossed enough my fingers... We had a LO who woke up at 4 and cried till 5, then I Bf and did it again at 730, as usual.both the morning and the afternoon got worse and worse (you can see how the thing will end by the way they begin): no way to make him taking a nap till 5...and he has been smiling and playing all the day long....of course he woke up 1 hr after BT because of overtiredness....
Still, I think I've realized why he wakes out in the middle of the night, always at the same time: it could be because of jolts. He makes the same kind of cry during the broken naps, when I'm not able to settle in few seconds. I think that  the problem could be this one because last night I was awake before him and appreciated the jolts first and then the cry. It begins in low tone with a lot of pauses; if I just try sshh or if I pick him up, he shouts aloud. Maybe I should leave him on his own... I've tried doing this way in the morning, but unsuccessfully.
Do you think I can squeeze near the crib one hr before and try to rub him?

[elga]

Just to tell that I've given up with paci... I was so tired that I yielded to the big temptation Just once: I'vebecause after night BF I pd quite immediately and he started crying after some jolts that I was not able to prevent him to be waken up by. so I PU , he started fighting, pd, got worsted, did it al the work again and handled the paci. He stopped the second it was in his mouth and I immediately put him down. He've lost it after 2-3 min, passed trough other jolts without it and still sleeping at the moment.
So:
- for sure he's not able to self soothe at alll! my fault probably?? To much PU-pd ant to less shah training as you advised me, I guess
-  jolts really are a/the problem
- I'm confused about what to do and ho
I should also tell you that he can handle small things very well, f e he use his little spoon to eat the mashed apple (I give him full of apples,he catches it with left or right and bring it to his mouth very successfully. Last time he used the  paci ( about 2-3 weeks ago!)  it was to bring it to his mouth while he was crying because he had lost it, and he did it very very well. I wonder if he'd be  able to use it indipendently.....

[elga]

 
Now that is morning, I clear up my mind and I know paci is not the proper solution. When you are in the middle of nightmare, a clear mind can be difficult to be kept on, sorry!
The night has been a real disaster, he couldn't soothe himself not even with my breast (and I am sure he didn't suffer from anything at all, I mean no cold, no fever, etc...). Maybe her was really OT.
I've woken  him up at 7, after he eventually felt to sleep at 6 (since 3.30 am!!!!) and start the morning again. I couldn't cope with a start at 6...
Just to be sure re sshh and PU-pd, I tell you how I'm doing for naps:
Start routine  and put him down in the crib ~15 min before time I want him t o be asleep; it's always very calm and almost happy to be down. He stay there ~ 5 min with my hand on his chest, his thumb in the mouth, and my shh. then becomes a bit upset, not too much. I keep doing it for a while, but he doesn't start any mantra cry at all. He starts crying louder and louder, flapping whatever he has and not being able to use the thumb anymore. So I pick him up, continuing with my shh . He brings the thumbs in the mouth again, soothe his self. I wait a minute , no more, sometimes even less, and pd awake. And start the work again. It's usually get at least 2 times, frequently 5-6 before I eventually can put him down calmed again, with his thumb sticked, eyes rolling. I think he's in phase 2 of sleeping when I put him down, because then I now stay with him with my hand pressing a bit and he has some startles  soon after i Put him down. Frequently they fully awake him up again. In that case, he find me, just smiles at me, and  try to catch his feet. He's swaddled , but not so tight because he becomes more nervous, and he doesn't like his thumb trough the blanket....
When He falls asleep, I stay with him till he's in deep sleeping, that gives me 10 minutes ~ more before doing wake to sleep....that never went out fine! So I stay next to him hours and hours, I must say. A bit upset....
Where're my errors ? And where's the trick?
Should I let him cry in the crib while I'm just saying sshh ore something else until he simply doesn't stop, if when?
Let me know....

[Layla]

I think you might be too involved in the whole process, which might be stopping him from learning how to put himself to sleep. You mentioned he is happy to be in the cot but you are still there with your hand on his chest and you are shushing... you only do the shh/pat (or the shushing) if he's crying so just leave him in the cot and leave the room!

So this is what I do:
- about 20 mins before nap time I do a nappy change, read 1 book in the rocking chair and rock as we read, then close the blinds so its nice and dark and I put on the white noise machine, which has a range of classical music. I then put her in a sleep sac (gro bag) and walk around her room with the music on (soft), rubbing her back as I walk until the music  ends (it is only about 3-4 mins long) and at this stage she starts sucking her thumb and getting sleepy. When the song ends, I put her down in the cot and kiss her cheek and leave the room. Obviously now she just keeps sucking her thumb and goes to sleep but at the start when I would leave the room she would either start crying or lay there and then start crying or go to sleep. When she'd start crying, I would go to her and start the shhh/pat. I would shh/pat until she would mantra cry and then I would leave her. So I think if he's crying, don't be quick to pick him up but continue to shhh instead and there is usually a peak in crying before they start to calm down. Pu/pd can overstimulate them more and is usually the last thing to do. If it were me, I would do the windown routine and leave him alone and just stay away to see what he will do. He may very well continue to suck his thumb and put himself to sleep whereas if you're there, you might be keeping him up past his sleepy window. Once he's asleep, leave the room and see what he does on his own when he jolts himself. If he starts to cry, go to him and do the shh/pat again until he's sleepy and then leave. Him smiling at you and then playing with his feet, I would say sounds like he's being distracted by your presence and you don't need to be there if he's quiet or he's asleep.

Should I let him cry in the crib while I'm just saying sshh ore something else until he simply doesn't stop, if when?

Does he respond well to you patting him? I used to gently rub Jenny's thigh or rub her tummy in circular motion as I was shushing. Some babies hate the patting and some hate the shushing. If he doesn't like the patting, just do the shushing.....but is very different to the cry it out method because you are not leaving him to cry and sort things out on their own, you are there with him, teaching him how to go to sleep.

Let me know if any of that didn't make sense or you want me to clarify anything else.

[Layla]

How are you going Elga?

[elga]

Dear Layla,
thanks so much, you're lovely!
SORRY for the delayed answer: i've been on calls for 3 days, meaning that we had to move to the city for 4 nights, then back to the mountain again for the very last days... I was on line because i've never closed the webpage on my i-phone, but didn't have time to read/write to you. Sorry again.
I think you're right: i'm too much involved in this stuff. I'm not flexible at all: if it's lunch time, i tend to feed him pretty on time, when he shows first signs. If one says to put the baby down the minute he stops crying, i put him down the second sharply, and so on. Sometimes he needs more time and i didn't give him  enough, because i'm afraid to start a prop...
When i was at home (city), i've realized we have a very adaptable and lovely boy: he was not afraid to stay in the "new" house, nor to sleep in his "new" crib! No problem to be fed both by bottle and apple by dad/grandma/grandpa without me on his side (but it wasn't the first time, of course!), nor to get sleeping for the night  without me. My parents are not used to put him down awake, they simply prefer to roll him a bit, that works muche better, of course!! But me and hubby were consistent with what we have done before, and he seems to know the difference.
At home we have a very old crib, much norrower than the one we use in mountatin and he slept very well in it: he woke up twice, but that was because my dad simply put nappy wrong and he was completely wet! First time i didn't have time to change him because he immediately found my breast and stayed there for a while falling asleep with a very big sigh of relief, still it was 10 housr since he saw me! So cute! so i think that sleeping in anarrow place could be helpful: he can't move so much nor change position in the bed.
i don't know how is going: still wakes up during naps and nights, requiring assistance to be back to sleep again.
But 2 good news:
-  i now put him down when is completely awake and he does very well specially at the evening. He sometimes need an extra help, meaning that I need to pu once, settle and pd. But he's awake when i pd and he ca help hisself to fall asleep most of the time (it was the same even when we were in the city!)
- we had  two 53 minutes naps! More than 45, isn't it?? 
regarding nap breaking, he can put hisself back to sleep when we travel by car. why he can't doing the same at home?

I stopped DF the night before yesterday, because he refused it, turned his head away and cried. I'll see what happen without it. At now, he simply woke up at the same hour, more or lee 2.30 am. Maybe he dosen't reserve to be fed. Should i try to give him breastmilk earlier in the night, one night at 2 am, the night after 1.30 and so on??

I keep in touch with you, but i'm on call again 4th, 5th,6 th september....
love,
elga

[elga]

Dear Layla,
If you have time, can you have. Look at our nap unsuccess?
Ive posted yesterday and today naps.
can't understand if he is UT. when he was at home with my parents, they mever tried to put him back to sleep after he broke the nap, and nw were little less...
Yesterday :
 pd 1325, sleep at 1333, jolts after 38  min and full awake, play quiet for 17min, 3 min of crying,  PU (and 1 hr was now passed!) pd twice in about 20 min. Sleep again at 14.50. WU at 1505, tire, PU/pd and back to sleep from 15.10- 1540~
Should I had to stop to put him back to sleep at  1505?

31.08:
Wu at 8
PD at 944, fully awake and quiet; improved: can suck thumb to sooth hisself on his own
PU at 955( maybe not necessary)
PD at 958 staring, closed eyes as pd, sleep at 10. WU at 1028 (people shouting), but stayed down in silent
PU at 1045, PU/pd 2-3 times, pd at 1058, awake and calm, appear ently tire. PuPd till 1130-1140, then slept till 1230.

Pd at 1436, a bit fussy, PU and pd twice,  sleeping  at 1446.
1 single startle at 1506 (transition from 1st to2nd phase??) WU at 1512, playing till 1522, than talking, moving around and playing till 1532, then start crying.
Pu at 1537, pd and pu once more, pd at 1542 sleepy. WU in 1 min again, played and talked again, but stayed calm (when I PU, he closed his yeas really soon, so I assume he I was tired, not under tired!). Silence at 1550. Cried again at 1555, PU pd once, sleeping at 4.
Isn't this gap too much long? Do I need to stop before and bring him in another room and play for a while? He stayed on his own in the crib calm and without  looking for me for a long time;I can't think he really would have had to be up and play. He seemed to be tired.
I can't understand if he's OT or UT or simply need time to be accustomed to put himself back to sleep...
Moreover, there are only 20 minute before next feed!

[Layla]

Hi Elga, sorry I didn't reply earlier

How old is he now? It may be that he needs a little more A time?

[elga]

Hi  Layla,
He's now 5m and 1 w old!
He's a very active baby a, learning so much day after day. He can sit  unsupported for 1-2 minutes, roll on his tummy and grasp small things with 2 fingers! Yesterday he helped hisself with his little bottle full of water that what's just on the table.
But after 2 A hours, you can see a different child, really tired.
Anyway, he still wakes up more or less every 3 hr at night...

[Layla]

I would say maybe its time to give him a little bit more A time. Try an extra 10-15 mins for a few days to see if the naps will lengthen. My lo is about the same age as yours and she's doing approx 2.5-3hrs A time in the morning, around 2.5hrs in the afternoon and (depending on if she will take her catnap or not), her bedtime is about 2hrs after catnap and about 3 hrs if no catnap. You might find once he's sleeping a little better during the day his nights will improve.

[elga]

I'll start this afternoon and let you know how's going!
My neck is completely destroyed, but I guess you also know how much can hurt....

[elga]

Just one question: what if he breaks nap before the right time? I tru to resettle, but where do I start to count from? I mean if I pd at 930 and he wu at 1020 and then he stay awake, no matter what I do, then at what time does the next nap start from? He is supposed to be fed at 11, so next nap should be at 1310/13.15, doing 2.15 A.  Do I need to count from the E or from the breaking nap?..

[Layla]

If he wakes at 10.20 and is due for a feed at 11, you give him E when its due (11) and put him down for a nap around 2:15A time from the time he woke from nap, so around 12:40 (so in the cot by about 12.35 if it takes him 5 mins to fall asleep)

[elga]

Hi Layla,
Things're going better!
Yes, he's now able to sleep for at least 1hr every nap, sometimes he gets an extra 1 after I've resetted him, sometimes just 40min more. And he can stay up for 2.30 hrs without being exausting.
He still ask for catnap; I've tried once not to put him to sleep at 5/5.30, but then he was really. OT and the night went out as a nightmare.
Yesterday I've put him to sleep in his room and in his "big" crib, and he did it well: did my BT/nap routine, put him down awake, and needed to PU just once every time. the night was quite good: df at 10.30 (I've reintroduced it), WU at 3 to be fed, WU at 5 I don't know why, just had a quick pitstop at my breast, and then WU at 6.45 ready for the new day.
In the mean time, I've started solid at lunch and it's ok .
Any suggestion to rid of catnap? Should it be time to break it?
Love,
Elga

[Layla]

To get rid of the CN, he really needs to be able to stay awake for 3 hrs and for a 5mo (although it is not unheard of), the 3hr stretch may be too much. If he's taking the CN then continue offering it and if/when he starts fighting it, that may be time to start the transition to 2 naps. Some of the signs of needing to transition to 2 naps are: baby starts to wake up earlier and earlier in the day or having middle of the night wakings and staying awake; the catnap is pushed later and later, making bedtime later too.

Here is a link to the 3-2 nap transition. All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Glad things are looking up for you!

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Hi!
Happy to say that is going quite better!
My little boy has ufficially become an independent sleeper since 4-5 days:
With a very consistent routine for naps and night, I now just need to swaddle him and sit down on the sofa singing a very short song to have the baby's thumb sticked into his mouth, and a big smile depicted on his face! Than I can put him down awake, say "have a good time" and walk out of the room. He sometimes need an extra help, but that's not the rule for sure.
Re naps: we reached the very beautiful target of 1 hr through. Then he stays on his own for 5-10 min, babbling,and after he need to be hold into his bed for a while to go back to sleep. Sometimes he takes longer and i need to stay with him for 5-10 min, but he usually gets another full hr of sleep.
Re night: I moved him into his room without any problems.  We always challange the 4 am waking; that's still the major difficulty. I'm not able to get rid of it, maybe... No idea how to manage it..

Thanks for the help you're been giving me till now,
Elga

[Layla]

What a fantastic update Elga! You've done all the hard work and it looks like its finally paying off . With regards to the night waking at 4am - if this is the only time he is waking up, then it is possible he's waking out of hunger. If you feed him and put him back to bed, does he settle?

Also he might be starting to fight the catnap, which is the start of the 3-2 nap transition. How many naps is he taking now?

[elga]

Hi Layla,
I've thinken the 4 am waking is 'cause of hungry, but he usually settle himself after some shh time in my arms, and sometimes in his bed ( I've forgot to emotion you that now I've found a way to do pat-shh in his bed and it works well almost the times). Of course, if he find a breast, everything is quicker, but I don't feel he is really hungry.
I give him DF at 10.30 pm, then he usually wu somewhere between 1.30-2.30 to be bfed, and then he wu again at 4.18 exactly... One time I did wake to sleep at 3.45 am, and he slept till 6, but I has been just one time and maybe by chance. Anyway, I' m still doing it, hope for a change.
If I don't feed him at 4, then I wu at 5/5.30 am, pretending some milk, and then at 6.45/7 am for the new day.  I' m think that bf at 1.30 and then 4.30-5 are too close to eacheother to be for hungry... I must try with bottle at night for 2-3 days to give a chance. I came back to work, so he now eats solids at lunch and 3 pm and my milk supply might became necessary less...

Re catnap: he still prefer to have a 30 minutes one between 5 and 5.30, but I've notice that sometimes he doesn't know what to do and he tries to stay awake. If he still awake at 5.45-6 pm, then I prefer not to pd at all and simply start bedtime routine earlier. But in that case he is still OT and he wakes up 2 times between 8.30 and 10.30 pm... He probably needs some more practice...

My hubby practiced the way I have to put him to sleep and now this lovely LO doesn't cry anymore with him, pretending to be rolling... But I can't teach my parents to do the same: they don't trust he can go down by his own and so  they always fail when they try with my method. I must say that they always fail, no matter  the method, because he can sllep only for half an hour and he can't resettle after he wakes up.
I think kids are clever even when they don't bubble, and they perfectly know the difference between persons and circumstances. So he maybe know that with grandma and grandpa things are different and that he can obtain more nursing, but only with them!
He will go to the nursery in a couple of weeks and I am been asked by the teachers  the way he is going to bed, because they do exactly as the mum does. Moreover, I have to training them (and the child as well) for 15 days....  That's great, isn't it? do you think that, at nursery, i have to put him down and then simply walk away as I do at home, or maybe it's better to stay next to his new bed longer and gradually reduce the time needed to walk out the door?
Love,
Elga