4 mo starting night wakings

[Layla]

Now the morning has been a bit chaotic, because he required to be fed at 1030 then 14, that are not the normal eating  times at all.., he took a  20 min short nap at 9, tried to resettle till 10 than I gave up and fed him at 1030.
I've put him back to sleep at 1 pm, everything went well for 25 min, then he wu twice in 20 minutes again. I stayed with him and pressed successfully  at jolts for both the times, but after 5 minutes since last one he WU again just screaming. I first thought it was because of tiredness or fright, but he didn't look for his thumbs as he usually does and he was crying with tears, higher and higher.... He eventually stopped at my breast,  took a full meal and felt asleep. Where do you think I did it wrong?
Could it really be that he needs more milk for a few days again, as in a growth sprout?
And what about timing for today? He was supposed to eat at 2.30-3 pm!!! Of course, I don't wake him up while he's sleeping to feed him, but should I give him milk + apple when he spontaneously wu later?

No, I don't think the short nap had anything to do with your milk supply. I am noticing that you're doing set nap times so I would be careful with that. What I mean by that is that at 4 months, he should only really be awake for around 2hrs so if he's had a short morning nap, I would aim at putting him to bed for the afternoon nap around 11.30am and then do the catnap earlier too. The same for the day before, where you had A time of just 1.5hrs in the morning and then 3hrs before afternoon nap and it doesn't look like there was a catnap (shopping?). So I think the short morning nap and then waking up crying from the short afternoon nap would have been due to overtiredness.

Because he is breastfed, it is OK to feed him every 3.5hrs (this is what I do with mine) and aim for him to go back to sleep within 2 hrs of being awake. And no, I would not be waking up just to feed him, especially if it took you a long time to put him down for a nap.

With regards to the morning feed, I do the same with mine... she will have an early morning feed around 4-5am and then I do another feed when she wakes up (which can be anywhere from 6-7am).

[elga]

Thanks Layla!
I'll try to stick more to the timetable!
May I ask you about naps? I've noticed that when he wakes up and find me along his bed just trying to press at him, he simply would have fun even if he yawns. I can calm him down one or two times, lead him to start sleeping again for few minute more, but then he gets upset if I don't pick him up. Once up, if i pd the second he stop crying, i need to continue doing pu/pd and eventually going on for more then 20min. If I hold him just a little more and pd when he's on stage 2 of sleep, say 1 or 2 minutes more, he would go down and fall asleep without other support. My questions is: by holding for 1-2 minutes,  am I giving to him a kind of prop?
And would him expect to find me along his bed anytime he would wake up???
I really appreciate you find time, energy and the good will to reply to me and to a lot of other mums! You give a lot of support! Thanks for your time!

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Here nights  have become  really a nightmare! No idea where i do it wrong, but now this lovely child he's waking up every 2hr. I Bf him, assuming it's cause of the milk supply, then pd and have a crying child again, who can't soothe by himself, hill I PU. And he requires a lot of time even after my milk.. I can pd quite well during the morning, but at night nothing works properly.
I'm so scared to create new props that I try to pd the second he stop crying/ eating and he wu more. Sshh-pat in the crib would take half an hour to be effective. My neighbours just grumble, my hub says to come back to the paci, my parents that he's not a lovely child at all, that's not true!
.i'de like to give up with everything I believe in and put him next to me in my bed with any kind of paci in mouth. Above all because I'm alone doing all this work night and daylong.
Re naps: I've extended two naps out of 6 in 2 days.
I now that I should be at home alsobfor the catnaps as well, but here I'm really without a person to share the work with  (everybody working) and time from 5 to 6.30 pm is the only I have to do something different Fromm sshh or pu-pd.
could you give me any suggestions?
Thanks,
Elga

[Layla]

It sounds like he is missing his catnap often because you are not at home, is that right? You don't have to stay home for the catnap but if you're out and about, can you try and put him to sleep in the pram? He really needs to have his catnap still, some LOs don't give up the catnap until 8 months or so. I would probably not hold him as it might start to become a prop. Could you just use the shh/pat method? pu/pd is the last resort. Could you sit by the cot and start shushing to help him through the light phase?

Hugs for the nightwakings. It must be really hard but you need to be consistent with naps and night sleep and if he's had a bad nap day, he really needs to be going to sleep early for the night. Shh/pat may well take 30mins but it will either be now or later that you'll have to sleep train him.

I think in your case, consistency is the key. Don't keep him up any longer than 2 hrs and make sure he's having the 3rd nap. Could you do outings between naps? I know its not long with the feeding but you can squeeze in 1 hr of walking around and just make sure you're back in time for him to be in bed by the 2hr window. Earlier bedtime is really important if he hasn't had a good sleep during the day. My DD some days takes some shocking naps and last night I put her down at 6pm for the night. She woke at 5.30 and I fed her and back to bed and she slept till 7am. This morning, her am nap was 1.5hrs, so I really really believe in earlier bedtime to help them catch up on sleep. If he's chronically overtired (not happy, crying, hyper), an earlier bedtime for a couple of days would help.

[elga]

Hi Layla and many thanks.
No, I always give him his catnap, wherever I am. And it's not difficult for him to be pd in his pram when we are out. When i'm out whit him, I look for tiredness cues very often, stay in a quite place even before he start to yawn , and make PU pd twice, and that's all: he would be down and close his eyes in few second. I don't roll him nor I walk to put him to sleep. I simply stand until he' s sleeping and then go at home. He wu after 30 min, that I was think is enough for catnap at 5.30 or 6 pm. Only onceci wasnlate" because I let him outside a shop with my dad while I was trying a dress on. It's sound like I go with him in the shopping centres every time, but it's not the case:due to the very hot summer here in Italy, we are now in a very very small village in mountain,not coas at all, only pines, fresh air and fresh desserts from the bakery....
PU pd works quicker than shhh; with sshh is crying and crying, fighting my arms to call me and put both his arm up to me, like to say: please, I'm here, could you just PU for a while? It's ok doing it trying again with it in the morning, but I feel not comfortable doing it at night, because at night I simply think: "well, now he's going on and on, and I'm not able to calm him." Maybe it.s a little bit a vicious circle at night? 
Is it totally wrong using PU-pd?
Anyway, I go for earlier bt, for sure, if he hasn't good naps!
Thanks for your reply!

[Layla]

If pu/pd is working better than shh/pat, then stick to it and it doesn't matter even if you are out and about shopping, as long as he manages to get some sleep in the pram. - 30mins is ok for a catnap. Keep a track of how long he is awake for though and yes, earlier bedtime if naps are not going well. Let me know how things are going but try and be consistent with how you approach him at night. If pu/pd seems to settle him better at night, do the same thing. Is he in the same room as you and DH at night? Has he been putting on weight?

[elga]

Yes for both of your  questions: he's sleeping into his own crib, but next to my bed (need to move in another room?), and yes he gains weight well (~ 250 gr this week). I sometimes think my supply is not enough and he has GS because of the great weight gain in few days and because he had a couple of scarce and green poos...

[Layla]

You only move him into his own room if you are comfortable but SIDS does recommend that they are in the same room for min 6 months (i think). Having said that, I just recently (2 weeks ago) moved my LO into her own room because DH is a really noisy sleeper and mine kept waking up and the first night she slept all the way till 4am (first time she did that). She's waking now twice at night and I believe I was responding too soon at times when she was in our room...but I won't tell you to move him out, you do that when you're ready . It doesn't sound like there is a supply issue if he's putting on weight. So try and feed him at 3.5hr intervals (breastfed babies don't usually go to 4hrs until later, when solids are introduced) and try and watch how long you keep him awake for (2hrs is the av A time for his age) and put him to bed earlier if he's not had a good nap day to stop him from getting overtired. Try and aim for morning and pm nap to be in the cot as otherwise it is likely he will have a shorter nap and it is absolutely OK that the catnap is in the pram . Did you want to post what his last couple of days have been like?

[elga]

Can't recall the whole  yesterday's routine, except that he went down at 8, Df at 1030, wiu at 1240, tried to calm him, but i think i tried less then i would have hoped. BF somewhere between 1250-1, WU again at 430, BF and then Wu at 645. i've tried not to fed him, but it was impossible, so i've decided to start the day. He just took a bit of BM, Then he played on his own for half an hr, then with me in my bed till 8, when I decided to top up the feed. That wasn't a good idea, because he felt asleep after his meal, no way to wake him again. So:
E at 8
S 8-915
A till 1030
E at 1O45 (still I don't know why.... When I do top up, do I start to count 4 hr  from the first meal or the last one?)
A till 12.15
S at 1230 till 1, then PU/pd and sshh till 2 with a pause in the middle. S from 2.10 till 240, then again PU/pd one or two times and back to sleep till 315
E at 340
A till 5
Catnap at 5 for 40 min
Bath at 7
E at 730
S at 8
He has just wu now 9 pm, I think because he moved in his crib, like he was starting a new sleeping cycle just when I entered the room... Tried with ssh, got an upset kid, PU/pd once and that's all for now.
What you think?

[Layla]

I really think consistency with regards to wake up time will help so if it were me, I would have accepted 6:45am as a wake up time and done my E then (or at 7am) and hold him off until 9am for morning nap and go from there. Try not to do the "top up" feed, because he could be snacking then for his next meal. The only time I do a top up is if mine wakes at say 5-5.30am and I give her a feed and then do a top up feed when she wakes up for good (be it 6.30/7am) and then count my 3.5hrs from that time and I also do a feed just after catnap and a final top up feed just before bedtime.

Also I noticed his A time before 2nd nap was 3 hrs which is quiet long for his age

[elga]

Dear Layla,
A nice update I'd share with you: today has been quite a good one!
At night he wu twice : 1.50 and 6!!!!  That allowed me to breastfed him, put him back straight  to sleep again and wake him up again at 7.30 (he did it by hisself, actually).
So   our routine has been like this:
E 150
E 615
E 740
A till 925
S at 940  till 1015, then awake and calm in his bed for 15 minute , then try to settle till 1050 and desisted (I could'nt had been along him when he started moving because my DH joined us for the w-end, knocking at the door exactly when he opened his eyes and looked for me..)
E at 1120
A till 1215
S at 1240 till 13.10 then 14-15
E at 1530 (BM+ fruits)
A till 4.30 
Tried to shift catnap at 4.30-4.40 because of the long gap at the previous nap, but he wasn't tired at all and refused to go to sleep till 5.30.
E at 1920, more or less
A till 1940
S from 1950. He needed 2 PU-PD, then he was able to go down awake and fall asleep with just my hand on his chest and 15 minutes of shhh.
Fingers crossed for the night!
I think I misanderstood the "rules" before: i''ve always started the routine for nap and BT ~2 hr after the activity time. Today I've tried to start it before, so that he would have been really sleeping after 2 hr. it worked. Did I do right?
Thanks again for your time! Really a great help and solace!

[Layla]

Fantastic update Elga!!! Yes, he needs to be in the cot by 2 hrs (if he's close to 5 months, he may be able to do anywhere from 2-2.5hrs but the morning A time is usually the shortest)... I am sorry I didn't explain that earlier to you but if he's in the cot before he's overtired then it will be much easier for him to settle and easier for you to extend his nap (if he needs it!). Also for the catnap, I noticed you were trying to put him down at 4.30pm but he slept until 3pm (well he had a broken afternoon nap which ended at 3pm) so that is why he probably wasn't tired at 4.30pm and didn't go down until 5.30pm. Before the catnap, our A time is a little longer than other times and that is about right

And YAY to a great night!!! Fingers crossed for a good nap day and let me know you go 

[elga]

Maybe I didn't crossed enough my fingers... We had a LO who woke up at 4 and cried till 5, then I Bf and did it again at 730, as usual.both the morning and the afternoon got worse and worse (you can see how the thing will end by the way they begin): no way to make him taking a nap till 5...and he has been smiling and playing all the day long....of course he woke up 1 hr after BT because of overtiredness....
Still, I think I've realized why he wakes out in the middle of the night, always at the same time: it could be because of jolts. He makes the same kind of cry during the broken naps, when I'm not able to settle in few seconds. I think that  the problem could be this one because last night I was awake before him and appreciated the jolts first and then the cry. It begins in low tone with a lot of pauses; if I just try sshh or if I pick him up, he shouts aloud. Maybe I should leave him on his own... I've tried doing this way in the morning, but unsuccessfully.
Do you think I can squeeze near the crib one hr before and try to rub him?

[elga]

Just to tell that I've given up with paci... I was so tired that I yielded to the big temptation Just once: I'vebecause after night BF I pd quite immediately and he started crying after some jolts that I was not able to prevent him to be waken up by. so I PU , he started fighting, pd, got worsted, did it al the work again and handled the paci. He stopped the second it was in his mouth and I immediately put him down. He've lost it after 2-3 min, passed trough other jolts without it and still sleeping at the moment.
So:
- for sure he's not able to self soothe at alll! my fault probably?? To much PU-pd ant to less shah training as you advised me, I guess
-  jolts really are a/the problem
- I'm confused about what to do and ho
I should also tell you that he can handle small things very well, f e he use his little spoon to eat the mashed apple (I give him full of apples,he catches it with left or right and bring it to his mouth very successfully. Last time he used the  paci ( about 2-3 weeks ago!)  it was to bring it to his mouth while he was crying because he had lost it, and he did it very very well. I wonder if he'd be  able to use it indipendently.....

[elga]

 
Now that is morning, I clear up my mind and I know paci is not the proper solution. When you are in the middle of nightmare, a clear mind can be difficult to be kept on, sorry!
The night has been a real disaster, he couldn't soothe himself not even with my breast (and I am sure he didn't suffer from anything at all, I mean no cold, no fever, etc...). Maybe her was really OT.
I've woken  him up at 7, after he eventually felt to sleep at 6 (since 3.30 am!!!!) and start the morning again. I couldn't cope with a start at 6...
Just to be sure re sshh and PU-pd, I tell you how I'm doing for naps:
Start routine  and put him down in the crib ~15 min before time I want him t o be asleep; it's always very calm and almost happy to be down. He stay there ~ 5 min with my hand on his chest, his thumb in the mouth, and my shh. then becomes a bit upset, not too much. I keep doing it for a while, but he doesn't start any mantra cry at all. He starts crying louder and louder, flapping whatever he has and not being able to use the thumb anymore. So I pick him up, continuing with my shh . He brings the thumbs in the mouth again, soothe his self. I wait a minute , no more, sometimes even less, and pd awake. And start the work again. It's usually get at least 2 times, frequently 5-6 before I eventually can put him down calmed again, with his thumb sticked, eyes rolling. I think he's in phase 2 of sleeping when I put him down, because then I now stay with him with my hand pressing a bit and he has some startles  soon after i Put him down. Frequently they fully awake him up again. In that case, he find me, just smiles at me, and  try to catch his feet. He's swaddled , but not so tight because he becomes more nervous, and he doesn't like his thumb trough the blanket....
When He falls asleep, I stay with him till he's in deep sleeping, that gives me 10 minutes ~ more before doing wake to sleep....that never went out fine! So I stay next to him hours and hours, I must say. A bit upset....
Where're my errors ? And where's the trick?
Should I let him cry in the crib while I'm just saying sshh ore something else until he simply doesn't stop, if when?
Let me know....