Need help transitioning/winding down spirited LO for BT

[B J]

I have a 21.5 mth old spirited toddler. BT has gotten increasingly challenging and I dread the end of each day.

 DS started daycare at the beginning of July.  He now has some SA and has become even more attached to me (understandably so).
I think he is OS and OT so it is hard to transition him when he gets home to dinner, then bath, and then wind down and BT.
He wants to just play with DS1.  He used to love the bath, and loves playing with water, but he has been refusing to have a bath.

 It is hard to get him to stay in his room for wind down also.  We usually read books and brush teeth.  He will try and run out of the room and into DS1’s room, or he will cry and ask to go downstairs.  He gets so worked up that last night he threw up a bit.  The only way to calm him down is take him out of his room.  But then his A time becomes too long and it takes him a long time to fall asleep, which leads to more OT.  He also wants me to stay in the room now once he goes in his crib, so I've been sitting by the door. He used to be an independent sleeper.

I can't even do EBT to catch him up as it is so hard to get him to settle for bed time.

We're also dealing with NWs every night and EW.  I'm not sure if his 2nd yr molars are moving around and bothering him. But I've been medicating every night and doing a DF of meds, but it's not making much difference.  Some nights he has more NWs than others.  I think there could be some developmental stuff going on too, so I feel like it's one big mess!

I'm so exhausted.

[michaeljacknnugg]

Hugs, that does sound exhausting!

We had bath issues at a similar age and it turned out that it wasn't the bath, it was the transition itself (getting undressed and into the bath). Once he could do more for himself it became easier, but in the meantime we skipped bath when we could.

It sounds like molars could be involved, but if you are medicating there's not much more you can do than ride them out. Can you try changing up the routine a little bit? Do books in his brother's room, for example?

[Mattsmummy]

I was going to suggest the same. Books with DS1 or downstairs then upstairs for teeth cuddle and then into crib? My DS who is also spirited has gone off his bath too a bit. We just get in/out fast. I think sitting by the door is ok as long as u inch away a bit every few nights so as to not become a prop. What r u doing for the NW?

[B J]

I've tried doing books in his brother's room but he thinks it's party time and will jump on the bed like it's a bouncy castle and just wants to play.

We tried books downstairs tonight and it didn't go so well.  DS1 wanted to read too and then they just ended up fighting over the books and DS2 wouldn't sit still and got down and started playing.  DH got him to come upstairs and he stayed in his room but was rolling around on the floor and wouldn't sit still for books.  He used to sit quietly on my lap and look at books with me.  When he rolls around on the floor I know he's tired but he refuses to go in his crib.  Now he won't wear his sleep sack either. Refuses to put it on and he doesn't like a blanket either. 

I finally put him in his crib and he protested for 25 min.  Standing up and yelling for me, reaching out for me and wanting to come out.  He kept throwing his lovey out of the crib and then crying for it.  Very annoying.  I just keep repeating my sleepy phrase and tonight I sat at door turned away from him.  He finally gave up and lied down and was asleep within minutes.  Which is really fast for him as it has been taking him over 30 min to fall asleep - one night it was over an hour. 

Right now I'm literally leaned up against the door.  His crib is right next to the door as it's the only wall we could put it against in his room.  So I'm still close to him but I want to eventually get out that door!  I'm trying to do GW as WIWO won't work with him. He'll freak out too much.  My next step I hope is to sit outside the door, and I'll have to leave the door open so he can see me, but that's only possible if DS1 is already in his room and settled.

When he has NWs he calls for me so I go in and tell him I'm there.  I used to be able to just give him his sippy with water and leave but now have to stay in order for him to settle.  I have to lie down beside the crib and rub his back or put my hand on his back or hold his hand. I think some of it is SA.  I don't want to become a prop but it's the only way to get him back to sleep.

[cath~]

Hugs

IIWM I wouldn't wonder about staying with him - like you're doing - as he falls asleep at this stage. Starting daycare can be a huge change (how is he settling in there? Is he napping ok?) and I don't think it's surprising he has some SA, especially if he's teething too - poor thing.
Sometimes our LOs need a bit more reassurance at BT.
IIWM I would aim to give him the minimum help he needs to go to sleep, esp if he's OT. Then when the SA settles down a bit working on GW to get him sleeping independently again.  Since he slept independently before it shouldn't take too long once he is ready.
There are some other ideas for wind down in the sticky at the top of this forum.  Have you considered using essential oils (eg lavender and/ or chamomile) for example to help calm and relax?
Does he have a lovey? If not, now could be a good time to try introducing one.

Hugs

[B J]

Thanks Catherine.  I do feel like I need to be stay in the room and be there for him, but I am scared of becoming a prop, and with his personality that it will be hard to get back to independent sleep.  I vowed with DS2 that I would not get in the habit of having to stay with him until he fell asleep.  DH has to stay with DS1 until he falls asleep right now, and I don’t want to be held hostage in DS2’s room every night.  DS1 used to be an independent sleeper too, but DH took over BT with DS1 when DS2 came along, and all my sleep training went to pot…

DS2 does have a lovey with him, but lately he's been throwing it out of the crib and then crying for it during BT. It's like a game or a way to get my attention.  I give it back to him and he throws it out again.  I say ok, you don't want doggie and I hold on to it or put it outside his door, and then of course he wants him back, but then throws him again.  The kid has a good arm because he's thrown the dog right at me. LOL

I recently bought a product called "Night night balm" which is for kids and is supposed to help them relax at bedtime.  It has lavendar in it.  I put some under DS2's nose but I don't think it did much.  I'll have to look into the essential oils.  How do you use them?

My original post was about trying to get him bed, but I’ve got NWs, EWs and BT/nap refusals too!

It seems like it suddenly got worse over the last 2 weeks and we are getting into a deeper and deeper whole.  I feel like I have no control over the situation and it is impossible to make things better.

The EWs have been going on for months – ever since the 18 month regression.  I kept waiting it out but we never got our routine back on track and now we have NWs and BT refusal.  We’ve also had nap refusals on the last few weekends now too.  We’ve had to A/P the nap in the car or stroller.

 During the week he is napping fine at day care.  The supervisor said he transitioned really well compared to other kids and that she wished the other kids were that easy.  He had a rough first 2 days, but now he is eating very well and goes to sleep independently there.  Nap time is between 12:30 – 2:30.  Sometimes he sleeps the full 2 hours, sometimes a bit less, and he’s had the occasional OT nap (1h 15).  It’s hard to know exactly how well he is napping since they aren’t as accurate with the times as I would be at home.

I’ve been giving meds for I think 3 weeks now (!) and I hate to give meds for so long.  It’s hard to know if it’s his teeth bugging him or something else.

I’m wondering if it could also be the 2 year regression come early?  He starting dropping to 1 nap just before 10 months, and he started the 18 month regression early too.
 
I recall DS1 had a period of NWs, BT call backs and SA around 2 years.  But at that time, I was pg, so I thought it was because of that.

Now DS2 has a cold and had a fever yesterday, so I did a lot of A/Ping last night.   Wind down was ok and he went in his crib without a fight, but after rolling around for a while, decided to stand up and wanted me.  I gave in and took him out and sat with him in the chair in his room knowing that he would fall asleep when I held him.  I was scared he was getting too OT and he wasn’t going to calm down until I picked him up.

[cath~]

Thanks Catherine.  I do feel like I need to be stay in the room and be there for him, but I am scared of becoming a prop, and with his personality that it will be hard to get back to independent sleep.  I vowed with DS2 that I would not get in the habit of having to stay with him until he fell asleep.  DH has to stay with DS1 until he falls asleep right now, and I don’t want to be held hostage in DS2’s room every night.  DS1 used to be an independent sleeper too, but DH took over BT with DS1 when DS2 came along, and all my sleep training went to pot…

Yeah, I totally understand and it's your call. We went through really bad patch with L around 18 months and ended up staying with her until she was asleep each night.  However, once she was ready for it, we started GW and it only took 5 days to have her sleeping independently again, and the wonky patch had lasted about 2 months I think.

With the lovey 'game' IIWM I'd give him one chance, if he throws it out say 'ok that means you don't want it tonight' and then don't let him have it back. Or you could perhaps say you'll put it back once he's asleep in case he needs it. Explain to him at bt that this will be the new rule so he's prepared for it and you've warned him before he first throws it out. Even if he's mad about this at first he will soon learn the new rule and this will be the quickest way to stop the game.  L sometimes throws her toys out of her cot at BT but she knows this just means they go to sleep in our room for the night and we don't get into a game where I keep returning them.

You can use essential oils in various ways.  I normally put few drops in bath to make it smell nice.  You can also mix with a base oil (eg sweet almond oil) and use to give a massage or put in a diffuser so scent the room.  You could prob also put some on a cloth near his cot.

Do you notice he settles any better/faster on days after a short nap.  Since he transitioned to one nap quite early, I wonder if he is a bit UT at BT after his two hour naps but OT overall cos not getting enough night sleep?  This was the case for L. And we always got BT monkey business when she was ut. Perhaps if you could post his routine for a couple of days we could have a look?  How much sleep is he getting in total/day at the moment? Has it changed much (eg decreased) recently?

Yes, could also be a developmental sleep-regression, esp if he tends to get them early.

Do you use Gro clock or lights on a timer or similar? We found this soo helpful in combatting EWs from 18 months. Would def recommend it but you prob need to get him falling asleep independently again first.

[B J]

Here is the last few days.  BT is too late due to our battles every night and his nights are too short, but I can't seem to get out of the cycle.  He used to do closer to 11 hour nights when he was younger, but now he is doing 10 hours or less at night.  Naps are around 1.45 - 2 hours at daycare and vary on the weekend.  We have been letting him nap in the car/stroller since he will fight going into his crib for nap.  I have tried a later nap on the weekend, and with the car naps, it has ended up being shorter, but we are still getting BT resistance.  But it may be because he is so OT that the shorter nap didn't help.  He has also been taking longer to fall asleep at night.  Even before the BT resistance started, it was taking 30 min or more. It used to be about 20 min when he was younger.

Fri
EW 6:11
Nap 12:30 - 2:30 (at daycare)
BT 8.25 asleep (fought BT for a long time)

Sat
EW 6:20
Nap 1:05 - 1:50 (car nap)
BT 7:50 asleep (fought BT again)

Sun
EW 5:50
Nap 12:25 - 1:00 / 1:30 - 2:30 (DH took him in the car when he woke and he slept another hour)
BT 7:45 (fought BT and ended up holding him to sleep since he has a cold)

Mon
EW 6:10
Nap 12:05 - 1:05 (in stroller)
BT 7:35 asleep (fought BT again and wanted to go downstairs)

Tues
W 6:00  (a better night)

We do use the gro-clock.  It is set for 6:10 right now.  I make him wait in his crib until it come on.  But lately with all the NWs I have been in his room when he goes off and I don't take him out of the crib until then.  He has been having a NW at 4:45/4:52 each morning (like clock work) and I have to go in his room and lie down beside him and put my hand on his back and he'll go back to sleep.  He is in a light sleep at that time and will sleep about 20 min and wake and go back to sleep. 

[cath~]

Hmm, he does seem to fall asleep earlier on days when he has had less nap. I wonder about capping his daytime sleep at 1hr30 for a bit and see if that helps?  It could all go horribly wrong but a capped nap might be worth a try for a bit just in case it does help.

What time are you first putting him down?  Maybe trying 15 mins later would mean he's more tired and so would resist less and nod off quicker... Might be worth a try. Would do this as an alternative to nap capping though (maybe try this first?) but not both.

What do you think?

With the habitual EW/NW have you considered trying W2S? I know it has worked really well for lots of people here.

[B J]

Yes, I've been thinking that I need to cap his nap.  He's at daycare all week and nap time starts at 12:30 so I can't move his nap later during the week.  I can ask them to wake him after 1h 30 but they are going to think I'm crazy since he's still young.

Long story, but DS1 who is 4, goes to the same daycare and is going through 1-0.  He's been ready to start dropping the nap like a year ago, but he's required to have rest time for 1 hour, so he ends up falling asleep and we've been in an UT/OT loop for a year now.  We've asked them in the past to cap his nap, at one point to 30 min, but we got the feeling that they thought we were cruel for not letting him nap.  Their view is that if he is falling asleep then he needs the nap still.  And he starts JK in 3 weeks and it is full days, 5 days a week with no rest time.  We had hoped they would help us transition him, but they think that waking him up after 1 hour is good enough, so it looks like poor DS1 is going to go to no nap cold turkey in a few weeks!

So I'll ask them to cap DS2's nap and see what happens.  I really have a feeling that DS2 is going to drop his nap early, so not sure how that will go over at day care.  The day care act here requires them to rest for 1 hour.  They have to lie on their cot for that time.  If they don't fall asleep then they can get up. 

I've thought about doing W2S and have done it in the past, but not sure it worked.  With all the NWs and DF of meds I've been doing, I didn't want to have to get up for W2S too.  I feel like I have a newborn again with all the NWs and broken sleep.  I'm OT too!  But I'll try it tonight as something has to give!

[cath~]

How many days are your boys at day care at the moment?

For DS2 if they're reluctant to cap you could perhaps do later BT on those days to see if it helps?

For DS1, you could perhaps do some no-nap days on weekends/when he's not at daycare?  Lots of LOs switch between nap and no-nap days when they are dropping the nap.

With DS2, he is prob in a bit of an OT/UT loop at the moment so if you do cap and nights don't lengthen (e.g. he doesn't nod off earlier) then you'll prob have to bring BT a bit earlier after short nights to make sure he doesn't get OT.  I can be a really tricky balancing act though until you find the right nap length & BT.

[B J]

They're both at day care full days Mon - Fri.

DS1 currently doesn't nap on the weekends and does EBT.  He is only used to 2 days of NN, sometimes 3 days if we have a long weekend. I'm just worried about his body not having a chance to get used to 5 days straight with no nap when he starts JK.  He'll probably switch to napping on the weekend when he starts JK.

I agree DS2 is in an OT/UT loop.  DH was doing the drop off this morning and I told him to tell the teacher to cap at 1.5 hours. He was hesitant to do so because he thinks DS2 is still young and that the BT resistance is because he needs more time to play when he gets home from day care.  They get home at 5:15/5:30 and then have to rush them to eat dinner, bath and BT routine.  And it's a circus trying to get both of them upstairs for bath.

Last night I tried starting BT later as he napped 12:30 - 2:30 and it started off ok.  He wanted to read books with DH so I left, but then he started yelling/crying and wanting to leave his room and calling for me.  So I went back in and he was calm, we sat for a bit and he agreed to go in his crib.  He rolled around for 5 min and then stood up crying and calling for me. I was sitting at the door, which is right next to his crib.  I kept saying my sleepy phrase but he wouldn't let up.  This went on for 50 min before I gave up and picked him up.  He fell asleep on the chair in his room.  I don't know if I'm doing the right thing by taking him out of the crib, but GW is tough with him as he won't stop crying.  But if I take him out of the crib, he'll think that if he keeps crying long enough I'll pick him up?

Last night I did W2S at 3:45.  He woke up at 4:46 and I had to go in and put my hand on his back and he went back to sleep, but it was light sleep as he would wake a lot.  Not sure what time I should be doing W2S?

[cath~]

DS1 currently doesn't nap on the weekends and does EBT.  He is only used to 2 days of NN, sometimes 3 days if we have a long weekend. I'm just worried about his body not having a chance to get used to 5 days straight with no nap when he starts JK.  He'll probably switch to napping on the weekend when he starts JK.

sounds like he might well be OK then if he can still get two naps/week

This went on for 50 min before I gave up and picked him up.  He fell asleep on the chair in his room.  I don't know if I'm doing the right thing by taking him out of the crib, but GW is tough with him as he won't stop crying.  But if I take him out of the crib, he'll think that if he keeps crying long enough I'll pick him up?

TBH I think that although it's hard in the moment when you just want him to go to sleep, in the long run it will take much longer to get back on track if you pick him up and hold him til he falls asleep.  Maybe try PD instead when he gets really upset?

Last night I did W2S at 3:45.  He woke up at 4:46 and I had to go in and put my hand on his back and he went back to sleep, but it was light sleep as he would wake a lot.  Not sure what time I should be doing W2S?

The advice for NWs/EWs is to do it about an hour before usual wake-up - so you did it at the right time.  How much did you rouse him when you did it? Might be worth continuing for a few days to see if it helps (if you have the energy of course).

[B J]

TBH I think that although it's hard in the moment when you just want him to go to sleep, in the long run it will take much longer to get back on track if you pick him up and hold him til he falls asleep.  Maybe try PD instead when he gets really upset?/quote]


I agree - it felt like CIO because he is persistent and won't stop crying.  It was almost 9 pm so I wanted him to go to sleep.  Tonight I'll hold firm!  But I think PD will get him even more ticked off!

With W2S I tickle his ear until he stirs.  He lifted his head and turned, so I think I disturbed him enough?

I forgot to mention that we did have success with the lovey last night. I told him during wind down he needed to keep his dog with him and not throw it out of the crib or mommy will take him.  He nodded his head and said "yeah".  Not sure how much he understood, but he didn't try to throw him out during his crying fit, held him tight the whole time he was crying.

[B J]

I can't figure out how to do a quote properly! LOL

DH spoke to the daycare supervisor and they said they prefer not to wake him at 1.5 hrs as the other toddlers will wake up too and it's supposed to be rest time since they are younger.  What they'll do is put him down last.  Not sure how much later that will push the nap out, maybe 15 min.  They wake them at 2:30, so in effect we'll be pushing out the nap and capping it.  But I feel like a 1.5 hr nap may still be too long.  We've had BT issues for months now, and it's just getting worse and worse.  I had thought about capping or pushing out his nap even before he started day care in July, but didn't bother, knowing what the nap schedule would be at day care and I figured he'd be OS and more tired.

I have a feeling he'll drop his nap early.  At the rate we're going, we'll be dealing with a 2 yo and 4 yo nap dropping at the same time!  Maybe DS2 will drop before DS1.  LOL!

Catherine - just curious - when did you start having NN days?  Did she just plain not fall asleep at nap time, or did you skip the nap on purpose?