in a mess...... again

[haribo89]

Yesterday everything started going wonky with my 13 month old, she normally takes 1 nap with the odd 2 naps a day if EW or bad night. After a few bad nights wih less then 10 hours each night and lots of NW I tried a 2 nap day for catch up, I capped her nap as normal but she then refused a PM nap numberous times, she ended up being awake from 10am until 7pm! Though the night she only had 2 NW but has been up since before 5 (slept about 9hrs), she is soooo grumpy and tired but just cant sleep. I am medicating for teeth but it doesn't seem to make a difference.  I really don't know what to do today.  How we will last to 1 nap I dont know,  all shes done for an hour is cry, but if we do 2 naps we might end up with PM refusal again and extreme A time. What would you do? 

[katie80]

Hi there, sorry you didn't get a reply in time, but here's what I'd do... If her am nap is usually the longer of the two on a two nap day, I'd do that and let her sleep 1.5-2hr (however long you do) and then AP the pm nap in the car or stroller (whatever works! it really only needs to be about 20min likely). If her am nap is the short one, you may need to look at either cutting it more (by the time they can often do 1 nap, it's usually not more than 20min) and/or increasing A time between the naps. The other option is to do a 1 nap day and a SEBT, but that's hard to do with a 5am wake-up.

What routine are you trying for when you do 2 naps?

[haribo89]

Thanks katie, On two nap days we were doing the following -

WU 5.30
Nap 9.30-10 (capped)
Nap 1.30-3
BT 7.30

I ended up deciding to stick to the one nap yesterday, we got a good 2 hour nap followed by a 10.5 hour night. So today although WU was pre 6am i stuck to the 1 nap, poor mite nearly feel asleep in her lunch, by the time i got her up to her cot she was OT and running and bouncing about, finally got her to sleep after 45 mins, fingers crossed for a good nap.
Im really not sure if i should just stick to 1 nap and just hope the OTness doesnt get to bad, if she could just get an extra hour at night and start the day 6.30-7 i dont think there would be any problems with 1 nap. Do you have any experiance on set nap and BT? My DD doesnt seem to tack on so im wondering if maybe we should do this for a week or 2. To be honest im just worried that a 20min CN will just make her grumpy, but any more than 20 min will prevent her from taking an afternoon nap.

[haribo89]

30 minutes and shes awake crying, doesnt look like she will be going back to sleep either. I just dont understand whats going on with her or what to do for the best!

[katie80]

(((Hugs))) hon, she sounds OT.  You could always try for a CN in the car or stroller later in the afternoon... maybe 4pm ish.

Im really not sure if i should just stick to 1 nap and just hope the OTness doesnt get to bad, if she could just get an extra hour at night and start the day 6.30-7 i dont think there would be any problems with 1 nap. Do you have any experiance on set nap and BT? My DD doesnt seem to tack on so im wondering if maybe we should do this for a week or 2. To be honest im just worried that a 20min CN will just make her grumpy, but any more than 20 min will prevent her from taking an afternoon nap.

Yes, set naps and BT can often be very helpful for LOs once they're fully on one nap.  Of course, it can depend on their temperament too and how well they deal with OT.  My DD was a bit touchy with sleep and set naps didn't work very well with her.  My DS is very textbook and set naps work great.  The problem with not tacking on with an early bedtime, is if she does get quite OT and you can't push through, a CN is sometimes the only way to get there.  I know that 20min doesn't even seem worth it, but it is usually another good step in whittling the CN down if you need to do two naps.  It was a life saver with my DD and also worked well with my DS.  With DD, I did it in the car and it was never an issue, because once I got her out we were at somewhere and doing something.  With DS, he was fine to do it in the crib.  I always made sure I had a snack ready for when he woke and it helped that his sister was there to entertain him right away.

Here's a good link on set naps... Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When

HTH!

[haribo89]

unfortunatly she wouldn't take a CN, she went to sleep at 7pm, i can see this being a long night though after only 30 mins allll day.
My LO is "spirited" although she seems to handle OT much better lately, she is originally touchy (easy to have tantrums) but goes hyper and very happy/funny for most of the day.
I guess im left with only 2 opintions, either do one nap on set time, maybe bringing the nap earlier than it is now 12-12.30, so the day would look like this -

WU 5.30 (hopfully closer to 6)
Nap 11.30
BT 7

Or try and stick to a CN in the morning like this -

WU 5.30
Nap 9.40-10
Nap 1
BT 7.30

I think i might of messed up her body clock by going swapping between 2 naps and 1 nap days, even though it seemed to work to start with.
How do the routines above sound? If i do go with the set naps and she continues to only have 30-45 min all day, she will eventually tire out and sleep wont she? How long did your DS take to settle into set naps?
I dont drive and my DD is much more interested in the world around her when out in her stroller so CNs only usually work in her cot.

Thanks again for your reply, its nice just to know your not alone x

[katie80]

Have you done early bedtimes before? On a day with a 30min nap, I'd definitely be putting down earlier than normal BT.

I think the routines you posted above both look fine. I'd be tempted to make BT a little earlier on the one nap day. Most LOs don't do more than a 12-13hr day when they first switch to one nap. Even if she ends up waking at the same time, she will have gotten more sleep overall so the next day should go better, iyswim. Even on the 2 nap day, I wouldn't push BT much past 7pm with a 5:30 start.

If i do go with the set naps and she continues to only have 30-45 min all day, she will eventually tire out and sleep wont she? How long did your DS take to settle into set naps?

Yes, typically if you stick with set naps the OT will eventually break and she will sleep longer. My DS has been on a set nap pretty much since he started one nap. It was first at 11:30am, after a few months moved to 12pm, a couple months later it moved to 12:30pm and now it's been at 1pm for the last couple. I expect it to stay there for awhile and I'll end up cutting it shorter eventually to maintain a decent BT and good nights.

I did go back and forth between 2 and 1 nap days with both of my kids for a few weeks, maybe even a month until they settled in to one nap. With my DD, I even had to give her a 2 nap day if she got OT while teething until she was about 2 (she was late to one nap though, at 17mo). I suppose it could mess up their body clocks a bit, but I actually found it to be very helpful during that last part of the transition.

(((Hugs))), hang in there!

[HenaV]

Hi!

I agree with Katie. When transitioning to 1 nap we often had to have an afternoon CN to get to a decent BT. My DD is prone to OT do
Just continuing to push her would have been fairly disasterous for us. That nap was sometimes in her cot and sometimes in her pushchair or the car. It was 20m t start of with sndvthennwe were able to whittle it down until we got rid if it. If for whatever reason my DD was still tired we'd EBT. My DD doesn't tack on either but it helped us avoid an OT mess.

Hth x

[haribo89]

We have tried EBT in the past but it doesn't seem to matter what time she goes to bed she will always have 10-10,5 hours of sleep, we then end up with an even earlier start to the day. She can wake anywhere from 5-7am depending on NW thats why i thought the 7pm BT would be about right because thats 12hr minimum day. 7am would be an ideal WU so i thought that set nap/bedtime would encourage this (hopfully) please correct me if im wrong on any of this though, its only from picking bits of infomation here and there.

katie- what time did your LO wake when doing a nap at 11.30? im worried that she would be UT if she did wake at 7am and was PD at 11.30, but when waking 5.30 then 11.30 is more than late enough. Its very hard to decide on times due to how different her WU time can be.

I am thinking maybe its a good idea to do set nap/bt and if she has a very poor nap, say under 1.5hrs then offer her a CN in the afternoon. Would this maybe work?

[katie80]

Hi hon, sorry I haven't replied... I haven't gotten on the last few days.

7am would be an ideal WU so i thought that set nap/bedtime would encourage this (hopfully) please correct me if im wrong on any of this though, its only from picking bits of infomation here and there.

Yes, that is the ideal with set naps and I think it often does work.  But, if she is sensitive to OT and has a hard time coming out of it, it doesn't always seem the best way to go.

katie- what time did your LO wake when doing a nap at 11.30? im worried that she would be UT if she did wake at 7am and was PD at 11.30, but when waking 5.30 then 11.30 is more than late enough. Its very hard to decide on times due to how different her WU time can be.

When we started with 11:30am, DS was waking between 6:30-7am. If he woke before 6:30, I did two naps. Eventually, I knew he could handle going from pre-6:30 to 11:30, so just kept it there and then moved to 12pm a month or two later.  I think the varied wakes do make things difficult, but if you stick with 11:30 no matter what for a good two weeks (or maybe more), hopefully it should even out a bit.

I am thinking maybe its a good idea to do set nap/bt and if she has a very poor nap, say under 1.5hrs then offer her a CN in the afternoon. Would this maybe work?

Yes, I think that's a good place to start.  How has it been going the last few days?

[haribo89]

Hi Katie, thanks for getting back to me. I wss ready to give up a few days ago,  we then seemed to be improving a little but have had a 5am start today and I dunno what to do. I dont want to possible spoil tje progress we have made by doing a CN this morning but 5 - 11.30 will be a push. If we could only get her sleeping more than 10hours!
A quick update on things -
To start with we were getting 30-45min naps,  we then got a 1 hr 40 and a 1hr 10 nap. We were also getting loads of NW but the past 2 Nights we have had a lot less. Only thing that hasn't improved is BT refusal,  she screams for about an hour, something she didn't do before.
We have been doing a 11.30 nap and 6.30 BT
Shes been happy enough,  if anything hyper but that's beter than grumpy :-)

[katie80]

It sounds like you've made progress, although she still sounds a bit OT (but thats part of the process, so not too worrying). I can't remember... is she getting teeth at all?  Do you give meds before BT?

What did you decide in the end for today?

[haribo89]

Shes been trying to cut one of her molars for what seems forever, it seems to bother her for a few days and then shes ok for a few days, so we do medicate frequently but it doesn't seem to help her much.
I decided to keep to the one nap as long as she didn't seem exhausted, I took her out shopping because she loves being around other people to take her mind off it and she was fine, gave me a 1hr 15 nap then, unfortunately shes still awake fighting bedtime, she was put down at 6.30 and has been crying since, its heartbreaking hearing her cry for so long. Hopfully things will slowly start improving with that soon. I don't think moving BT earlier will help? Especially because shes only havjng 10-10.5 hrs a night.  Is it possible her low amount of night sleep is OT rather than her being LSN?

[katie80]

Especially because shes only havjng 10-10.5 hrs a night.  Is it possible her low amount of night sleep is OT rather than her being LSN?

Yes, definitely.  10-10.5hr nights are often OT ones and is what I would think first.  She had a 13.5hr day with only a 1h15min nap.  Even if she's LSN, that's a really long day.

unfortunately shes still awake fighting bedtime, she was put down at 6.30 and has been crying since, its heartbreaking hearing her cry for so long.

(((Hugs))), it sounds like she's OT.  Is she in there crying by herself? Even though she's an independent sleeper, I wouldn't leave her to cry.  It will only make any SA worse and I'm sure you know we don't condone any type of CIO here.  At the very least I would be doing WIWO or helping her off to sleep because she's OT.

[haribo89]

Up untill 10 months she had acid reflux and intolerances that wernt under control,  so has never been a good sleeper due to her tummy,  we created bad habits due to it, rocking to sleep etc. Between 4-10 months she was only getting 6-8 hours of broken sleep a night. As soon as her health seemed ok we started GW and shes now in her own room and we are 1 step away from being out of the door. Since starting GW we havent been able to find a routine that works well for her, 10-10.5 is what shes slept since being in her own room and I think maybe sges aways been OT. Im just hoping we can push through and this routine will finally be the right one.
She wasn't left alone, sorry, my other half usually puts her to bed at night so he can have story time with her, im glad really because I dont think I could stay in the room while shes so upset,  id be crying too