Desperate for help! Nearly 8 month old still waking up frequently at night

[albers30]

I've got nearly 8 month old twin girls.  They are on a pretty good schedule.  Wake up between 6:30-7:30 (one does have issues waking up early like 5-6 am but that's another issue although advice on that would be appreciated as well) play til 8 then solids and bottle and nap around 9 generally for an hour.  Play until 11:30 ish then solids.  Bottle and Nap around 1pm generally 1-1.5 hours.  Play then bottle and cap nap around 4-4:30 generally 30-45 minutes.  Play then solids around 5:30-6.  Play again then start bedtime routine with bottle and bed around 7:30 ish give or take 30 minutes.  They both go down easy for naps and bed time but Lilly continues to wake up every few hours during the night, her longest stretch of sleeping is 3 hours if we're lucky unless we bring her to bed with us then we might get 4 hours out of her but that's not even very often.  She used to scream bloody murder every time she woke up and be difficult to put back to sleep but that's gotten better and generally with a back rub and head pat or some rocking or a bottle she'll go back down just depending on how worked up she gets herself.  Claire her sister generally gets up once to feed around 2-3 and that's it except for the often 5 am wake up times or the occasional I feel like playing in the middle of the night.  Sleep deprivation with the twins was significant early on and so it's really starting to take it's toll at nearly 8 months.  I know she needs more sleep too and its starting to take its toll on my ability to go to work and to care for the girls during the day as well as I'd like to.  Any suggestions on how to get her sleeping for longer stretches?  We've tried every type of book advice from crying it out, the girl can cry for hours if you let her, to co-sleeping, graduated extinction, etc.  She started sleeping thru the night at 3 months but then at 5 months this started and has been ongoing which makes it even harder because we were spoiled for a bit. Any other thoughts? 

[PaulsMom]

Hugs Hun times 2!  I can't imagine how hard it is with two.  So a couple of thoughts on how to tackle the night wakes and early wake ups. 

Regarding their routine, I think that they should stay up longer between naps.  Probably closer to three hrs may be more age appropriate for them.  Since they are only up for around 2.5 hrs between naps, I'd slowly start to increase their A time by 10 to 15 min for 3 to 4 days and then do another increase.  This will allow them time to get used to the increased A.  By having their morning nap a bit later, hopefully we will see a reduction in the ew's by Claire.  For future reference, here's the average A times by age Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! .  Also, with the increased A time, they probably do not need the CN.  If they seem more tired late in the day, aim for an early bt rather than another nap.  Basically their day should eventually look like this.

Wu 7:00
S 10:00 to 11:30
S 2:30 to 4:00
Bt 7:00

By getting them on a routine with a bit less DT sleep and longer As they may sleep better at night. 

Regarding Lily's nw's, I think that following different techniques may have caused some issues for her sleep.  Please note that on the BW forum, we do not support crying it out methods as these strategies can break trust your Lo has for you.  When she cries, she needs to know that you will be there for her.  We hope that you can stop using this technique as it will only make things more difficult in the long run.
Cry it out (CIO): 10 reasons why it is not for us
You can regain Lily's trust by responding to her, keep her on a routine so she knows what to expect next and be consistent with the settling technique for naps and at night (the back rub or light patting is a grat way to settle her).  Here is some more info Regaining Trust of Your Child. 

Frequent nw's can also be caused by discomfort and separation anxiety.  Has Lily had any tummy problems (constipation or diarrhea), any food allergies or intolerances?  Is she teething?  Do you think she has any separation anxiety during the day? 

Sorry for the long post.  I hope that you find some of these suggestions helpful

[albers30]

I'd love to change their schedule to that but right now they are so fussy and rubbing their eyes by 8:30 ish and noonish I don't think even in 15 minute increments we could push their times out that far and we tried the earlier bedtime trying to avoid the cat nap but it was a fight every night to get them to sleep and then they'd wake up every 30 minutes for several hours after that.  Any thoughts on that? 

As for Lilly, we only tried the cry it out once out of desperation and that was over a month and a half ago.  She cried so long we said we'd never do that again and respond promptly to her cries now.  About 10% of the time patting her back and head works to settle her, 70% of the time she has to be held and rocked, and 20% of the time she needs a bottle to settle.  Her routines for going down for bed and naps are pretty standard as well as dealing with wakings.  She cut her bottom teeth around 5 months and popper her upper two a few weeks ago, she transitioned to a crib by herself about 2 months ago, and recently has been displaying some separation anxiety issues I think with needing more attention instead of playing by herself or with sister at times like she used to and when their are other less familiar caregivers.  She's also working on crawling and pulling up.  So any of these things could be contributing but its always going to be something so how do we deal with these issues and improve the situation before we all go mad from sleep deprivation because when there's two even when the second one just wakes up once or twice it keeps you up all night. 

Thanks for the advice!

[PaulsMom]

Ok, if 15 min increases are too much for them, then try 5 - 10 min increases.  It will be hard at first but they do need to drop the CN at this age.  Hold that a for 4-5 days and then increase the a again. 

Hugs for the nw's!  I know it's sooooo hard trying to function on broken sleep.  Sooo glad there will be no more CIO. 

Wrt developmental milestones, give her plenty of time to practice, including some time in her crib (so she knows how to sit down if shes pulled up).  Unfortunately you ride these out.

Wrt settling, work on the settling in the crib early in the night.  For your own sanity, rock her or feed her to get her down quickly if she has woken you up.  If you can both get more sleep in the MOTN, so much the better. 

For SA, here's some info but you will have to go to her.  Separation Anxiety. Peek a boo is great for a day time activity and it did help my dd with her SA.  At night consider a few nights with you on a mattress next to her.

Teething can also cause issues.  Usually upper teeth are worse than lower ones.  If you think she's teething, try a teething gel or pain meds (if you are ok with this approach and their dr has ok'd it).  Unfortunately not much we can do, they all get teeth at some point!

Hang in there!

[albers30]

So we're working in changing the nap times and its going much better, getting close to the 10 am time in the morning but they're only sleeping about 45 minutes now instead of 90 although Claire occasionally goes 90.  Still at 130 ish on the afternoon nap working towards 2. This nap is generally about 60 minutes for Lilly and 60-90 minutes for Claire.  Claire can go most days without a cat nap but Lilly still routinely needs one. Bedtime is between 7-730. Claire may get up once and eat otherwise shell sleep til about 5 am want a snack and a little play time then back to bed til 730 ish. Lilly sleeps about 4 hours now then wants to eat. After that its hard to settle her back in her crib for an extended period of time so for our own sanity I know it's bad but we've been putting her in bed with us after the first wake up and she'll sleep until 7-730 then except for the occasional need for a snack around 5 am too. I know it's a bad habit but it affords us more sleep and better functionality. It also helps because Claire doesn't wake her up with her 5 am playtime either. How do we break this habit when the time comes and how soon should we try and break it? Any ideas on how to get them to nap longer?

[PaulsMom]

I'm glad that things are going a bit better for you.  I don't blame you one bit for co-sleeping.  You need your rest and at some point you just have to do what you can to get sleep.  I have to admit I don't have any btdt experience with co-sleeping but when you are ready, here is some info:  GRADUALLY WEAN CO-SLEEPING:HELP YOUR BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HIS OWN

Wrt longer naps, what I did with my dd was to go into her room and shhh her when she started to stir around the 40 min mark.  I usually wasn't successful but it did work and I think it helped her to learn to transition between sleep cycles on her own.  Not sure if you can do this with two but it might be worth a try.  I've also heard of moms holding or resting their hands on the baby around the 40 min mark so that any jolts don't fully wake them.  I would observe them sleeping first so you can see when they start to wake and then go in 5 min before that time so you can be there in time.  Does that make sense?

[albers30]

The nap thing does make sense and I'm excited to give it a try. We'll see how the cosleeping weaning goes when we reach that point. Any ideas on how to get them to where they don't need to eat at night. Both Lilly and Claire have one episode during the night where they wake up screaming and take 8 ounces then immediately pass back out. It they didn't suck down a full 8 ounces like it was nothing I'd think it was behavioral but that's a good size meal serving for them and they act like its hunger not just the need for soothing that has them upset. Occasionally Lilly will do this again in the wee early morning to. They eat 1-2 jars of baby food or yogurt breakfast lunch and dinner and about 20-24 ounces of formula generally during the day with 8 ounces being taken at bedtime generally.

[PaulsMom]

If they are draining bottles at night, they probably need it. If they were just sucking an oz or 2, then that's another story and I would try to wean that.  Now the key to weaning the night feed it is to up their intake during the day.  Are they still on purees? Do they eat any finger foods?  I would start them on some finger foods, particularly higher cal and protein foods that will sustain them.  For new food introduction, you should still follow the same process you used for purees (ie. waiting a few days before introducing a new food).  Purees are ok, but they have a lot of water in them so are less calorie dense than their finger food counterpart. 

[albers30]

Yeah they drain 6-8 ounces. Lilly is sleeping better. Each is only getting up once a night to eat for the most part, occasionally a little grumbling around 11 ish but settles easily. I've got them on morning nap 930-10ish generally 45-60 minutes then an afternoon nap around 2-230 ish 60-90 minutes, no cat nap, bedtime is generally 7-730ish. They seem to be doing well with this schedule but the. 5 am wake up calls are still an issue though. Thought? They eat puffs and Cheerios type finger foods but otherwise purees. They don't chew real we'll yet, suggestions on other finger foods to try? Thanks so much!

[PaulsMom]

Glad the nw's have decreased.  Regarding the ew's, how long is their morning A?  Do you have black out blinds up and use white noise? 

Wrt finger foods, you can try fruits that are soft so don't need lots of chewing (e.g. Pear, squashed blueberries, raspberries, banana, etc).  Also try soft cooked veg like carrots, peas, sweet potato or squash.  There is a great recipe for chicken sausages that is great.  They break apart well and are soft.  I usually make a batch and freeze them.  They thaw well in the microwave oven.  The Famous Sausage Recipe!

[albers30]

They generally play 2-2.5hours after they wake up before getting fussy and I usually try to entice them long enough it's about 3 hrs after waking that they go down for nap. . That is if I'm able to get them to go back to sleep for a little while after the 5 am wake up call.  If not they're usually ready to nap after a couple hours which makes for an early nap time which I try to avoid. Black out blinds but no white noise.

[PaulsMom]

A 3 hr A isn't bad.  Hopefully they adjust to it soon.  I would continue to add more A time (very slowly). 

Wrt 5 am wu, what if you fed them and put them back in bed?  Will they sleep in a bit longer?  I did this with my dd (still do sometimes and she's 11.5 mo).

[albers30]

So we were doing really well for about a week and now things have gone right back to where they were before.  She's waking up every few hours screaming.  Once she's clearly hungry and will take about 8 ounces and go right back to sleep and the rest of the time she's just screaming for no apparent reason and nothing will calm her except time and sometime just letting her suck on a bottle, she'll take maybe and ounce or two and calm down.  Any idea on the source of the regression or why she's so uncontrollably unhappy with the wakenings?  I'm concerned about their naps too.  It's usually stretching it to get them to 2.5-3 hours of activitiy between naps, they are pretty cranky by time I put them down.  They generally take a bottle and go right to sleep but they only nap for 30 minutes in the morning and 45-60 in the afternoon if I'm lucky.  They used to nap much longer when we put them down sooner.  Could this be affecting their sleep at night as well because even little Claire has been waking up more frequently at night.  With the bedtime routine its usually about a 4 hour stretch before bedtime and actually they do pretty good with this but by time we put them down at 7:30 they usually zonk right out.  Regarding the early wake ups a bottle or just putting them in bed with us gets them back to sleep till about 7-7:30.

[PaulsMom]

Hugs for the nw's.  that sounds really rough.  Waking up screaming to me, indicates pain or discomfort.  Is she teething?  Any signs of tummy issues? 

Short napping can cause OT to build up which can cause nw's because too many stress hormones are circulating to permit restful sleep.  Are you able to do an early bt?  If feeding solves the ew, then I would do that in the short term so that you can start you day at a more reasonable hour. 

Since its been a while, can you post their routine - just a typical day and may be there is something that could be tweaked. 

[albers30]

Wake up 7-730
Play
Yogurt btw 8-830
Play
4-8 ounces of formula
Down for nap 9:45-1015
Lilly naps 30 minutes, Claire 30-60
Play
Lunch 1-2 6 oz jars of baby food and some finger foods around 12-1230
Play
4-8 ounces of formula
down for nap 2-230
Lilly naps 45-60 minutes, Claire 60-90
Play
Dinner 1-2 jars of baby food and some finger foods 530-6
Play
Bedtime 730ish

Night before last one or the other was up every hour from 11-2 took several 4 ounce bottles a piece during that time then slept time 715
Last night one or the other was up every hour from 11 to 7 again took several 4 ounce bottles a piece during this time otherwise just restless and needing to be rocked and held.

Claire is cutting her upper two teeth but Lilly has her upper and lower 2 already.  Otherwise no idea whats going on but can't take it any longer.  Lack of sleep is killing us.