NWs for over 3 weeks now - ride it out or time for some ST?

[K-JDA]

Hi all

My DS is 11 months this week and currently it is all going on for him (see below) and the NWs have been constant for the last 3 weeks. It feels like we have a newborn again and I am so tired from broken sleep! I would really value your wonderful views on how best to handle this one so will try to give as much info as possible (may be a long one!!).

The NWs generally are after midnight, all at random times, last for about an hour (can be half hour), he cries during them but when calms down may chat a bit, he cannot be calmed with my voice and needs rocking so am worried this is becoming a prop but do feel he needs the extra soothing at the moment. I can normally get him down when he is v drowsy but not fully asleep - at which point he rolls over, starts to protest but then stops and generally goes straight to sleep. This may take a number if attempts however!

He is an independent sleeper but has sometimes needed some extra help at bedtime and nap time (maybe 2 out of 10 times).

This was yesterday's EASY and is fairly typical although normally try for a slightly shorter day if nap 1 is 1.5hrs.

WU 6 (after 1 NW at 10.30 for 1/2 hr where gave meds and NW at 5am where gave 4oz diluted feed as trying to night wean)
A 4hrs
S 10-11.50
A 3hrs 45
S 3.35-4.10
A 3hrs 20
S 7.30
NW 1.30-2 gave meds and water
EW 5.30 - tried to feed and resettle but couldn't get back in cot and so gave up at 6.15

The following is going on for him at the moment:
- just come out of Wonder Week 46 which always cause hour long NWs - after the last WW the NWs just stopped but not this time yet. WW still at play I wonder?
- 2 of the top 4 front teeth are through - weirdly the outside front tooth came 1st and really seemed to bug him, the other 2 look really close - have been giving meds which do seem to help but this round of teething has been 6 weeks on and off. Can giving meds become a prop itself?
- he has had a runny nose for about weeks now too and this week has developed a cough.
- he is v clingy to me for about the last 6 weeks and even rejects DH if I am in the room so think SA is at play too?
- I have started back at work part time so he is doing 2 days a week at nursery - has been a bit teary at nursery but he is also tired as his nights have been so disturbed - the NWs started at the same time as him starting nursery. I go back full-time in September when he will do 3 days nursery and 2 days where nursery in the morning and grandparents in the afternoon. We are dropping him at 8 and picking up at 5. He is napping fine at nursery although nap 2 tends to be after a shorter A time than when at home - this is so he can eat before coming home.
- he has been an EWer in the past during the 3-2 transition. The EW this morning is not typical at the moment - probably either teething discomfort or OT rather than routine issue?
- am really struggling to wean the NF - am down to 4oz water with 2 scoops milk. Tried this morning with only 1 scoop milk and he didn't like it and didn't resettle as normal. Am really struggling with finishing this feed as am scared he will EW and don't want to add to the OT at the moment so I probably go in there too quick and he doesn't resettle himself without the feed so it is a habit? Before the NWs started the night feed was normally at 4.30/5am then back down til 6/6.30 within a few mins (just put him down straight after the feed). However recently I have fed at some of the earlier NWs if struggling to settle him and then he has then slept til WU instead so not sure? Should I leave this for now or continue on and use other methods to resettle? This really scares me.

So as you can see there are many factors at play here! Do you think I should continue it ride it out for a bit longer til these other teeth are through or do you think the rocking and NF are props that I now need to do something about? I do feel the teething is bugging him along with the runny nose/cough. Am hanging my hopes on the fact he is an independent sleeper and this will just stop but am starting to doubt this. How do you know when you need to consider ST? Never really done anything formal ST before but my own variation of PU/PD worked at 5.5 months to get him sleeping independently.

Sorry for the essay!

Your views would be much appreciated!

[Layla]

Hi Kate,

Wow, there is quiet a lot going on at the moment... all of which might be causing your LO to wake at night!

I guess how you approach it is up to you but if you're starting to see that he is unable to settle without being rocked or fed then it probably is becoming a prop. By 11 months, DD1 was sleeping straight through but DD2 still had 1 NF (I think she was completely done with night feeds by 12 months). I would say if he's taking a full feed and then settles for the rest of the night, he might be genuinely still needing that feed? Whereas if he was waking up a couple of times and just nibbling a little and then back to sleep, then that would probably be more of a prop issue? Also if he's at nursery, it could be that he isn't eating well enough there? So maybe keep the feed for now and continue to slowly work on weaning it by diluting it. If he's sick at the moment, it could be that he's not feeding well during the day and making up for it at night?

With regards to the rocking, I would probably stop rocking to sleep... although this is hard because he might be needing the extra cuddles since starting nursery. Try to do a longer windown with lots of cuddles and one on one time with him before you put him down for the night and if he wakes at night, try to resettle him by maybe rubbing his back to see if that will help settle him (this method always worked best for my girls) or you could do pu/pd but I would be careful with the rocking personally as it can quickly become a prop issue...

With regards to teething... I know everyone does things differently but personally I didn't really medicate all that much for teething and I think I only ever used it with DD1, when she was teething her canine teeth and I only did it a handful of times and only gave baby panadol. I've read somewhere that teething meds (i think its more to do with ibuprofen and teething gels) can have the opposite effect and actually keep them up instead of helping... so that kinda freaked me out LOL and plus they will be teething for a long time and I didn't think it was necessary to medicate before every nap and bedtime. But if he is uncomfortable and you think meds are helping, then of course you can give him to rule it out.

I also wonder how he is going down at nursery? Do they follow the same routine as you.. could it be they are helping him go to sleep and he's expecting the same when he wakes? It might also be that they are letting him sleep "too long" - as in, the morning nap, where he could be making up for the lost sleep at night, which in turn can cause the wake ups at night (its a bit of a vicious circle)
 
With regards to him feeling unwell - do you have a vapouriser you could put on before he goes to sleep? Or perhaps elevate the mattress? You could maybe try and ride it out until he's at least feeling better (cold/runny nose) and then use the pu/pd method to sleep train.

What do you think?

[K-JDA]

Hi Layla

Thanks for your feedback - you have reinforced what I was already thinking after making my post yesterday!

Yesterday went like this:
EW 5.30
GU 6.15
S 10-11.30
S 3.45-4.25
Bed 7
NW 11.30-12

I have been doing lots of extra cuddles in wind down but totally agree the rocking has become a prop. Last night I had already decided enough was enough - he woke at 11.30 and had already given meds at bedtime so knew the problem wasn't his teeth. Plus no way was he hungry so I decided to do WI/WO and only picked up once very briefly. He was very annoyed at not getting rocked rather than genuinely upset so I carried on and he settled back to sleep within 1/2 hr with me out of the room for him falling asleep!

He then slept til 4.30, cried out and went back off til 5.45 - gave him a quick feed then in the hopes he would resettle. I put him down awake and he rolled around til 6.40 when we all got up. So in all a better night.

He is at nursery today and will ask some of your questions when I pick him up re naps.

He hasn't eaten very much at nursery and has been up and down with his food recently so I agree I probably need to keep the NF for now and slowly work in reducing the feed. He has his evening meal at 4 at nursery so am wondering if I should start giving him some supper at 5.30ish before his bedtime bottle at 6.30/7ish - night help him get through??

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Layla]

Yes, if he's having dinner at 4pm, supper is a good idea. I would probably do something small like yoghurt or a piece of fruit or maybe some crackers with cheese? Or maybe instead of him having his dinner at nursery, they could give him a snack and you do dinner at home around 5.30?

Great news on being able to settle without rocking!!! With regards to the EWs, once he is able to put himself back to sleep without you, he may sleep longer BUT it is very common around this age that they start to wake early in the morning due to morning nap being too long. I've attached a link for you to have a look at... this is all leading up to the 2-1 nap transition. From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older) and 10/ 11mo sleep gone wonky? Read this first! (2-1 switch)

Let me know how things are going but sounds like you've made great progress already

[K-JDA]

Yeah he STTN!!! He ate well at nursery and i gave him a yoghurt at 5.30 too. Went down at 7 and slept til 6 so 11hrs which is a good night for him and the max he sleeps at night.

Thanks for the 2-1 info - have seen these posts before. I guess if he starts to EW we may have to consider short am/long PM nap? This scares me a bit as his PM nap has never been very solid so was glad when we shortened it to 45 mins to fit everything into the day.

If the am nap is 4 hrs from WU and is the longer one do you think that he can still use it as a way to catch up on night sleep? I tend to cap this to 2 hrs max to fit everything in but is more often 1.5hrs. If he starts to EW can we just start to move it along a bit by small increments instead of cutting it short?

[Layla]

Woo hoo!!! Awesome news!!!

I guess if he starts to EW we may have to consider short am/long PM nap? This scares me a bit as his PM nap has never been very solid so was glad when we shortened it to 45 mins to fit everything into the day.

And this is fine, lots of mums here maintain the long am/short pm nap and it works fine until bubs is ready to go down to 1 nap (naturally extends A time before morning nap or you extend it for them and offer earlier bedtime instead of catnap)

If the am nap is 4 hrs from WU and is the longer one do you think that he can still use it as a way to catch up on night sleep? I tend to cap this to 2 hrs max to fit everything in but is more often 1.5hrs. If he starts to EW can we just start to move it along a bit by small increments instead of cutting it short?

I would probably continue capping at 2 hrs but that's just me and I would probably cap in fear of my LO not taking the afternoon nap at all or taking it too late and then fighting bedtime. But it may just be a matter of accepting that bedtime will be a little later temporarily. Yes, so as above, you would start to move it bit by bit instead of cutting it... but you can cross that bridge when you get to it.

Fingers crossed for no more wake ups at night!!!

[K-JDA]

Thanks Layla - fab advice and support and very much appreciated!

[K-JDA]

Hi there

Just wanted to do a quick update to say that since my last post the NWs have stopped, except for 1 night where i gave meds for teeth and straight back down with no help and in the last 9 days I have only had to feed twice at 4.30am-ish. Watering down a 4oz bottle to less than 2 scoops seems to have done the trick.

I just wanted to ask for some BDTD advice on the night feed - do you just resolutely stick to no feeds from now on and just resettle or give a watered down feed if unable to?

At home we seem to have fallen into a routine along the lines of:

WU 6
GU 6.15ish
E 6.30 6-7oz
E 8 porridge/fruit
S 10/10.15 - 11.30/12 (wake at 2 hrs)
E 12.30 lunch
E 2.30 snack
S 3.30/4 - 30-40 mins (40 if asleep earlier, 30 if nearer 4pm)
E 5 dinner
E 6.30 6-7oz
S 7ish

At nursery meals are 12 & 4 so I do supper at 5.30 too and naps do vary a bit but he is generally doing 1hr30 in the morning at 4-4.5hrs and 30-40 mins around 3.30ish.

Do you think this is a reasonable routine for now? He is getting nearer 13 or 13.5hrs total sleep?

[Layla]

I gave a watered down version and mine just stopped waking for it  . If you're sure he isn't hungry, and the watering down isn't doing the trick then you could try wi/wo...

Your routine looks great! Great to hear the nws have stopped

[K-JDA]

Hi

Thought I would sneak in a post before DS turns 1 in 10 days!

Got an issue with NWs again and still struggling to kick the last NF since DS started nursery 2 weeks ago.

He had some taster days at nursery and was fine with a long AM nap and short PM cat nap but since he started nursery full time he has really struggled with napping for more than either 30 or 40 mins twice a day - eek!

Nursery seem fine with knowing when to put him down but he is not settling easily (so then they are helping him to sleep) and waking after 40 mins. Each weekend he has settled back into his normal sleep pattern (totally independent sleep) although 1st A has shortened slightly to 3.5hrs as he is so tired! The weekends are all about letting him catch up again and then we start again.

Have used EBT on some days and this has worked ok but we are getting NWs and a couple of EWs due to OT. Have had to keep the NF as a way to help him settle if wakes at 4.30/5ish. Other NWs I am not picking up and doing WIWO. Clearly OT is at play here.

A tooth has popped through this week so that is part of the cause but the little guys is clearly goosed from lack of DTS at nursery and not sure how to help him out.

Grateful for any thoughts!!!

[Layla]

I would just try and put him down for the night earlier (as you are) to allow him to catch up on sleep if he's had poor sleep during the day. Are they able to extend the nap at nursery (pat him when he wakes at 40mins to encourage more sleep as opposed to getting him up)?

[K-JDA]

Well he STTN last night and took a good long nap and CN today at nursery so hopefully things are looking up on the DTS front. 😃
Thanks for your support over the last few months, my next post will probably be on the Toddler board as DS is 1 on Monday next week.

[Layla]

Fingers crossed he continues to sleep well at nursery